From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #537 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Fri, 29 Oct 1999 Vol 06 : Num 537 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #535 the_dojang: Black Belts and Masters the_dojang: black belt the_dojang: black belt the_dojang: Re: Black Belt Barney the_dojang: Re: at what dan "master"? Re: the_dojang: Re: at what dan "master"? the_dojang: Dan Ranking the_dojang: Belt Colors/Black Belt Dan... the_dojang: ITC the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #536 the_dojang: join the list! the_dojang: black belts the_dojang: my last test, BB awarding the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #536 the_dojang: Black means master?? [none] the_dojang: Re: ITC ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~775 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 19:01:43 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #535 In a message dated 10/28/99 8:33:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Our parent dojang uses embroidered gold bars at the end of the belt for dan ranks, but my TKD master (4th dan) only has his name embroidered in Korean, no level. What does your school do? >> Same here ... no stripes on my belt but I give the option to each of the students that have reached that Dan level and so far they have all picked having the stripes. It is no biggee to me. But it may mean something to them. Illona ------------------------------ From: Gregg London Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 19:12:55 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Black Belts and Masters Good Day Group, In regards to what Dan Rank determines what level, Dr. Cha Sok Park, President of the Pan American Taekwondo Union, quoted the following: The first four Dan ranks are like the first four years of College, leaving one with an undergraduate Degree. The next two Dan ranks are like college years five and six, leaving one with a Master's Degree. Hence, a 5th and 6th Dan would be considered Master. Beginning with year seven, one would be pursuing a Doctrate Degree. Hence, 7th Dan or above would be considered Grand Master. Personally, I like the College analogy and comparison. Respectfully, Gregg London - -- Gregg London Internet/Notes Development http://www.glondon.com Corporate/Trade Show Magic 703-242-7548 Tournament Automation Services ------------------------------ From: "Mike Roberts" Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 23:21:23 GMT Subject: the_dojang: black belt Thanks for letting me know about black belts. I always thought a black belt was the best. I'm glad there are people here who know so much. Thanks again ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "Mike Roberts" Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 23:21:23 GMT Subject: the_dojang: black belt Thanks for letting me know about black belts. I always thought a black belt was the best. I'm glad there are people here who know so much. Thanks again ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 20:22:41 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Black Belt Barney In a message dated 10/28/99 5:59:55 PM Central Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: " I do not care if they sew little Barney the purple dinosaur patches on to signify rank. " LOL! that's the spirit, aaron! just pleeeeeeease dont tell me you all sing the song and dance at the bb ceremony ;). good luck and have fun! melinda ------------------------------ From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 20:26:18 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: at what dan "master"? In a message dated 10/28/99 5:59:55 PM Central Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: " IIRC in the WTF, 5th Dan is Master, although that means that 4th is "Junior Master" and are sometimes addressed as "Master." When I was in the WTF my students started calling me "Master" which I was very uncomfortable with. In the ITF, "Master" is 7th and 8th Dan, "Grand Master" is 9th." from what i understand, kukkiwon deems a master 1-5th dans, grandmaster 6 and up. however, in the u.s. we typically begin calling someone a master at fourth dan. melinda ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 20:11:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: at what dan "master"? > " IIRC in the WTF, 5th Dan is Master, although that means that 4th is > "Junior Master" and are sometimes addressed as "Master." When I was > in the WTF my students started calling me "Master" which I was very > uncomfortable with. > > In the ITF, "Master" is 7th and 8th Dan, "Grand Master" is 9th." > > > from what i understand, kukkiwon deems a master 1-5th dans, grandmaster 6 and > up. however, in the u.s. we typically begin calling someone a master at > fourth dan. ??? I thought the Kukkiwon states that a person becomes a Master at 6th Dan and a Grandmaster at 8th Dan. In the US, the USTU has stated that a 5th Dan can be classified as a Master. In some styles a person hits Master rank when they become a 'Dan tester', i.e. when they can promote someone to 1st Dan. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "tink" Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 23:06:12 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Dan Ranking Throwing in my words on a couple of topics here... In Tae Kwon Do...4th Dan is called a Junior Master. 5th, 6th, and 7th Dans are called Masters. 8th and 9th Dans are called Grand Masters. Many schools and arts have gone to striping the Black Belts to designate appropriate Dan Rank. Personally, and I know this is going to generate some response, I believe that the stripes were added specifically for the newer generations of Black Belts for recognition and distinction. There is nothing wrong with this, in the least. Each to his/her own. I have seen the hash marks on sleeves used also. I received my black belt from a traditional Master, now Grand Master, Instructor and have always trained under a traditional Master or Grand Master. My belt has no stripes. It bears my Instructors name and school in the ancient form of Korean writing on one side and my name in modern Korean on the opposite side. It is the belt that I will wear until it literally falls apart...assuming I don't lose it somewhere first (private joke). I have worn it now for 18 years. I once asked my first Master Instructor how to tell a Black Belt's rank, as at the time the stirpes were not adopted by most schools. He simply said ask them. After asking numerous Black Belts their rank...I asked many of them why the rank wasn't represented on the belt. I got the same answer from most of them. I was told, in paraphrase, "It's not important that everyone knows your rank. It is only important that you know it. If they wish to know, they can ask." Take it for what it's worth. Tink ------------------------------ From: "aparedes" Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 22:32:31 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Belt Colors/Black Belt Dan... Thank you all for your input on the subject I posted regarding the color belts. Thanks to my Kwan janim and Sabumnim I have know about the meaning of the colors belts for our ChangMooKwan style of Tae Kwon Do, ( White, Yellow, Blue, Red, Black.) I also knew that in the old days, a white belt turned black after so many years of training. Regarding the back belt Dan belts, Our organization, ( White Tiger TaeKwonDo) used stripes on the end of the belt to show the Dan Rank of the Individual. We use Korean names for our high ranking members. Grandmaster: Kwanjanim, Master: Sabomnim, Senior Instructor: Dae-Pyo Kyosa-nim, Instructor: Kyosa-nim, Black Belts: Chokyo-nims. Our uniforms are white, overlap type (Karate style) with 2 patches, One patch is out school's patch and the other the USA flag. In my case instead of the USA flag, I have the Karate Patch from the YMCA since that's were my school is being conducted out of. Again thank you for all your input! Alex Paredes 3rd Dan ChanMooKwan/Kukkiwon. aparedes@gateway.net Changmookwan@email.net ICQ#17642186 Yahoo ID# black_belt_3 AOL messenger name: Changmookwan www.geocities.com/colosseum/arena/8129 ------------------------------ From: "aparedes" Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 22:46:11 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: ITC Silke: Tell us more about your organization (ITC) and where about are you in the California Desert? My family has a property our in the Joshua Tree area. Alex Paredes 3rd Dan aparedes@gateway.net Changmookwan@email.net ICQ#17642186 Yahoo ID# black_belt_3 AOL messenger name: Changmookwan www.geocities.com/colosseum/arena/8129 Can you tell us more about the ITC? I received a rather nice mailing about it from ITC headquarters a month or so ago. Is there a big push to increase the ITC membership? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Silke Schulz" Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 22:54:48 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #536 Ray wrote: "Can you tell us more about the ITC? I received a rather nice mailing about it from ITC headquarters a month or so ago. Is there a big push to increase the ITC membership?" At this time, we are a smallish association by comparison, so I would say that headquarters is probably trying to gain membership. The ITC is an organization created by American-born masters--most of whom were formerly in the ATA but decided that that organization was not the one for them for a variety of reasons. Our GM is Chang Jin Kang, who I'm told, is WTF recognized. As I see it, the advantage of ITC membership is that we will soon have the ability to be WTF recognized and participate in the Olympic selection process (though I doubt this will occur before the Sydney Olympics). Without knowing exactly what information you'd like to know, this is where I draw a blank. Please feel free to ask questions, and I'll be happy to answer. In the spirit of budo, Silke Schulz ------------------------------ From: "Emil J. Fisk" Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 14:44:22 +0800 Subject: the_dojang: join the list! Hi everyone, I know that Ray mentioned this before, but I'd also like to invite everybody on the list to join in on the discussions that take place. It doesn't matter if you just started studying MA, or if you've been doing it for several years. Everybody has something to contribute to the discussions. Sometimes there are things that beginners can think of that the more advanced students take for granted. So please, jump in and ask questions because that's the best way to learn. At least introduce yourselves. Sincerely, Emil Fisk ------------------------------ From: "Emil J. Fisk" Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 14:44:24 +0800 Subject: the_dojang: black belts This is the information that I recall from studying WTF in Sweden and Korea: 1st-3rd dan Assistant Instructor (Chogyo/Kyosa) 4th-6th dan Instructor (Sabeom) 7th-9th dan Master (Kwanjang) I'm not sure of the system they use here in Malaysia, but I know that you have to sit for an instructor's certificate, and you can do that when you reach 2nd dan. the only person I've heard being referred to as 'Master' is the President of the NGB. Most people tend to use the title 'Mister' instead. I like to tell people my first name is 'Sir'. Although the other day there was a little kid, no relation, that called me "Taekwondo Master Uncle Emil." As for determining rank on the belts, I've seen a few different things. One of my instructors had golden stripes sewn into his belt. The blackbelt he awarded me had one golden stripe. Here in Malaysia I see that most people don't have any stripes sewn into their belts, so you'll just have to ask, which I find a bit rude. I think the most awful thing I've seen (I mean no offense - this is a personal observance) is the rank number just sewn into the tip of the belt. I saw several people at a seminar a few weeks back, and if they were 5th dan, they just had the number "5" sewn into the tip of the belt. As for myself, my belt is just plain old black, with nothing sewn into it apart from the little Elephant brand tag. I must concur that the blackbelt does not indicate mastery of anything. I realized just how little I knew and how far I had left to go when I got my blackbelt. Yup, and I'm the one who was complaining of having all those other blackbelts under me that think they are experts in TKD. I've sort of solved that by forcing them to join the class with everyone else and not giving them any special treatment. They'll have to work just as hard as all the other students, and receive the same punishments. And I'm also handling everyone from white to black, in separate sections of course, unless my instructor is present. Sincerely, Emil Fisk ------------------------------ From: "Emil J. Fisk" Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 14:44:26 +0800 Subject: the_dojang: my last test, BB awarding My last test 6 years ago didn't have much of a ceremony to it. I got my belt in the mail. :) Before jumping to conclusions, hear me out first. I was living in Korea at the time, but had to move to Thailand due to my dad's job. So after a nice summer holiday, my parents and I returned to Korea for a week, just so I could sit for my dan test. The day after I tested at the Kukkiwon, we left for Thailand. So my instructor had to mail me my certificate and belt a few months later. The only ceremony I recall was being ecstatic and tearing up the envelope as quickly as I could, followed by my trying on the belt for size (without my uniform on). I'm not sure what happens here in Malaysia, but if I ever find out, I'll let you know. Sincerely, Emil Fisk ------------------------------ From: TKDSCRIBE@aol.com Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 03:54:01 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #536 In a message dated 10/28/99 4:58:50 PM Mountain Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << My name is Silke Schulz, and I'm a 2nd Dan in Taekwondo with the > International Taekwondo Council. I just opened my own school in a small town > in the California Desert. I having a grand time at it, too. I am still > amazed that since I opened my doors on September 11, I've managed to amass > nearly 30 students! Hello Silke, >> Dear Fellow Martial Artist: I appreciate your desire to share what you have learned but please be very careful as a 2nd Dan is not a highly mature level for a teacher. You may be a fantastic technician and an awesome fighter too, but you are very young in the art. In Korea you would not be permitted to open a dojang as a 2nd Dan; you would be able to teach only under the license (yes, license) and supervision of your master. Be very careful with the lives you will touch. Especially to children, you will be - like it or not - a very impressive figure in their young lives. Lead by proper example Mr. Schultz and lead with care in your heart. Good Luck Sincerely, SESilz ------------------------------ From: "Lasich, Mark D." Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 08:51:46 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Black means master?? I fully agree with Brett Kraiger, Black Belt only signifies that a person has completed the basic course of study. At this point, you can begin to fully explore, learn and grow as a martial artist. This misconception of "black belt" is troublesome. Apart from that, in the ATA the Master level can only be EARNED a year after earning your 6th degree. Earning of the Master title is not a given, you need to demonstrate, among other things, a commitement to the art (holding a national office, etc.), demonstrated ability to spread the art (multiple schools, demonstrations, seminars, etc.) and achieving a balance in your own life of being a good person, dedicated to your family, martial art, etc., and you strive for completeness and quality in EVERYTHING you do! Subjective? Yes, but it is not a given that you will earn the title of Master just because you've achieve a certain rank. The title is reserved for those who live the life of a martial artist. If you haven't Mastered all aspects of your life, can you truely be considered a Master? In the spirit of TKD......... Mark.Lasich@alcoa.com ------------------------------ From: "Raymond Ambrose" Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 08:02:03 CDT Subject: [none] >So why are uniforms from Japan and Korea usually white? Is it some cultural >thing? An economic thing? Or is it a 'new' invention, possibly starting >with Jigaro Kano? What has been handed down to me for the Korean side anyway is that white is/was the color of mourning and was adopted as the universal uniform color I have tried to research this more and cant find anything to either uphold or dispute this. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Brett Erwin Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 08:45:01 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: ITC The International Taekwondo Council... didn't a group of ex-ATA high ranks split off to form this? If they didn't form it, I know they are heavily involved in it now. Do these names ring a bell? If so, what are there roles? Jack Pierce, Mike Ajay, Wade Vierra... These three left ATA about 5-6 years ago, I think. If memory serves, I think I saw Vierra as one of the cornermen for a UFC fighter who wore an ITC uniform. Regards, Brett Erwin Allen, TX ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #537 ******************************** Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com ===================================================================== To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.