From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #543 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Sun, 31 Oct 1999 Vol 06 : Num 543 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: Style American TaeKwonDo or Western TKD the_dojang: USTU Competition. the_dojang: Re: Jhoon Rhee the_dojang: Re: Olympic Style Sport Fighting Re: the_dojang: Re: Jhoon Rhee the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #542 the_dojang: Fw: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #537 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #542 the_dojang: Copyrights the_dojang: poomse in competition the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~775 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ron Bain" Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 18:05:58 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Style American TaeKwonDo or Western TKD Anoot@aol.com wrote: > > Can anyone explain what is typically known as American TaeKwonDo or Western > > style TaeKwonDo fits into or does not fit into the Olympic games and also how > > this particular style fits or does not fit into the various national or > > international organizations. Ray Terry then replied: > I'm not sure I understand your question... Not sure I know what Western > style of Taekwondo is, but... > > There are various political organizations with martial arts in general and > Taekwondo is no exception. Some of the orgs are very large, some are very > small. > > But as far as what is taught in Taekwondo schools there tends to be three > types of schools (IMHO), those that focus on Olympic style Taekwondo, those > that do not focus on Olympic style Taekwondo, and those that do both (i.e. > part of the time you train for competition and the rest of the time you do > not). Hopefully all teach the human development concepts of Courtesy, > Integrity, Self-control, Perseverance, and Indomitable Spirit. Hello everyone. Long time list member here who has decided to come out of hibernation. Looking forward to contributing (and learning) more. Thought this would be a good place to start as any. I'm not sure about this but "Anoot" may have been referring to a group of senior American Masters who started training back in the early 60's and eventually started an "eclectic" style of TKD which they called "American TKD", or "American Karate". Among these senior Masters were people like Allan Steen, Skipper Mullins etc., who were Texan TKD stylists originating under GM Jhoon Rhee. (There were probably many others across the country who were doing the same thing) They would later incorporate other elements of training into their curriculum such as kickboxing/boxing, judo, jujitsu/hapkido etc., and eventually set out on their own starting various "American TKD" organizations. As a result, it is probably more of a "generic" term nowadays as opposed to a specific style, and generally refers to any traditional TKD (or Karate in the case of "American Karate") style, that takes a more "open" approach to their training. It has also been referred to as "Modern TKD", although that could start a whole new thread. As far as it fitting into the "Olympic Games' or belong to NGB's, that would depend on your instructor/organization. Many of these senior Masters still may maintain a relationship with the Kukkiwon/WTF, and support Olympic competition and Kukkiwon certification. Others may not. Strangely, there are many schools that do exactly the same thing (while supporting KKW/WTF)and continue to promote their style simply as TKD. ;-) Hope this answered some questions. Ron <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Ron Bain's Taekwondo Hapkido Web Guide http://www.cyberbeach.net/~bainr/martial.htm <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> ------------------------------ From: "tink" Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 17:37:06 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: USTU Competition. sorry - you can now do either taeguek or palgue forms in USTU state or national competitions - but you can only do the one approved for your rank - I was unaware of the change...thank you for pointing it out. I was aware of performing only the one approved for your rank. Thanks again. Can you tell me when the Palgwes became acceptable for USTU state and national competitions? Just curious. I know they changed all of the referees signals about a year ago, reducing the number by regrouping the 1/2 point and 1 point infractions. It is al usually a sign of someone who has broken off from somewhere else and is using the title to excuse their lack of knowledge. Forms - oh we don't do those - "This is American Karate." Have to agree with you on this one. Have heard those exact words from many "Instructors" of their own schools. The One and Only... Tink ------------------------------ From: CBAUGHN@aol.com Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 19:12:21 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Jhoon Rhee Tink wrote: << He is a member of the ITF and it was he who pushed for Tae Kwon Do to be an Olympic sport. >> Strange that he shows up for USTU Ceremonies if he is a member of the ITF. I believe if you check a little further, you'll find that Master Rhee was not the only Taekwondoin who pushed for TKD as an Olympic Sport -- that probably much more credit should be given to members of the WTF in South Korea. ------------------------------ From: CBAUGHN@aol.com Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 19:12:55 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Olympic Style Sport Fighting Tink wrote: << If anyone wishes to train for the Olympic style competition, they should first ask their Master Instructor and discuss the request and the requirements. The Master Instructor should, if agreeable to both parties, contact the Olympic Committee for Tae Kwon Do in Colorado for further information and requirements. It will not be an easy path. It will certainly push adherence to the Tenets of Tae Kwon Do to the limits. >> While I agree that in any organization one should discuss competition of any kind with his/'her master, there is no requirement for the master to contact the "Olympic Committee for Tae Kwon Do" (since there isn't one). Any individual can contact the United States Taekwondo Union, which is the National Governing Board for Taekwondo, and ask for further information. Why you feel Olympic-style sparring competition would "certainly push adherence to the Tenets of Tae Kwon Do to the limits" is beyond me. In our school the tenets are: Courtesy, Integrity, Perserverance, Self-Control, and Indomitable Spirit. If these principles are not included as part of ANY sporting event (and the training therefor), I should think the athlete would be ill-served. As it happens, it is not difficult to see all the tenets embodied in the fine young men and women who compete for the US at the State, National, and International level. << Any Member of any Tae Kwon Do organization can train for the Olympic games. There are no organizational restrictions to my knowledge. >> It is true than any member of any TKD organization can train for the Olympic Games. For that matter, anyone at all who wishes to do so may train. However, there are a few requirements at the Olympic level, such as being a USTU member (thus being a member of the NGB) and holding a Kukkiwon Dan # (or the equivalent). << Olympic Style Sport Fighting is quite different from normal tournament and class room sparring. Hand techniques are almost unheard of, unless you have the technique, know-how, and stamina to move your opponents body with one punch. >> The usual term used by those who practice and compete is "Olympic-style sparring." It's true that Olympic-style involves much more than "normal" tournament sparring. The players at the elite level must be superb athletes who have great physical stamina combined with great physical skills. If you think hand techniques are unheard of in Olympic-style, may I suggest you stand still for one of our sparring instructor's cover punches. I wouldn't... even wearing double hogu... but then I've seen her move opponents with one punch. It is true that most techniques used are combinations of kicks. I suspect the reason for this may be that most of Taekwondo's best moves are kicks. It's never really been known as a punching art. Having said all that, I hasten to add that if you are interested in sparring without being part of the intense, elite training, there's a place for you in most local USTU-sanctioned tournaments. I'd suggest that you might check out http://hometown.aol.com/LadyTKD for more info about our favorite sport. Oh, by the way, it's not all dog-eat-dog, fight-to-the-death, only-the-winner-survives competition -- and I've never seen any of the competitors dropkick any babies or dogs. Sally Baughn cbaughn@aol.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 17:42:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: Jhoon Rhee > << He is a member of the ITF and it was he who pushed for Tae Kwon Do to be an > Olympic sport. >> > > Strange that he shows up for USTU Ceremonies if he is a member of the ITF. I > believe if you check a little further, you'll find that Master Rhee was not > the only Taekwondoin who pushed for TKD as an Olympic Sport -- that probably > much more credit should be given to members of the WTF in South Korea. And to Gen. Choi, he was pushing to get TKD into the Olympics almost 40 years ago. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 20:47:38 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #542 In a message dated 10/30/99 3:06:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << I LOVE it!!! I am having so much fun! And I'm learning so much--I really like the challenges involved with having your own program and starting it from scratch (things like the respect protocols we took for granted at an established program having to be taught with no higher rank students to establish precedence). I'm looking forward to hosting my first testing on November 13th. If you are ever in the area again, I would love to meet you, so feel free to stop by! >> Thank you, Silke, I would love to !! Yes, it is very different having your own school ... no senior students to show anyone what to do by being a role model ... YOU are the role model at all times ... and it is hard being all and everything 24/7. But I know you wouldn't change a thing ... and either would I !! I am excited each and every day I get up ... because no two days are the same!! LOL !! Yes, I would love to come out there and visit your school and meet your students ... maybe around the first of the year when all the holidays and and excitement from them has gone down. I am gearing up to do the monthly newsletter this weekend so I can get it printed out this coming Monday. We are having a boardbreaking day this coming November so I have to announce it in the newsletter (for green belts and above). We just finished having picture day today ... had over 60 students show up ... which is good for us. No one ever comes to these things it seems. But this year the packages were so reasonable that more parents and kids did come. Afterwards some students and Asst. Instructors got together with myself and the photographer and he stayed and shot some black and white film for some advertising slicks. I sure hope they turn out good. Last year was the first time I had ever done anything like this ... and it really helped in the advertising this year !! Gotta a better response in the ads that I did run in the PennySaver. How do you advertise, Silke? Mike told me that they don't have a PennySaver for that area ... and the newspaper didn't pull for him. Do you do flyers or billboards or what? Illona ------------------------------ From: "The Hostetlers" Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 20:10:09 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Fw: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #537 ><< My name is Silke Schulz, and I'm a 2nd Dan in Taekwondo with the > > International Taekwondo Council. I just opened my own school in a small >town > > in the California Desert. I having a grand time at it, too. I am still > > amazed that since I opened my doors on September 11, I've managed to amass > > nearly 30 students! > > Hello Silke, >> > >Dear Fellow Martial Artist: > >I appreciate your desire to share what you have learned but please be very >careful as a 2nd Dan is not a highly mature level for a teacher. You may be >a fantastic technician and an awesome fighter too, but you are very young in >the art. > >In Korea you would not be permitted to open a dojang as a 2nd Dan; you would >be able to teach only under the license (yes, license) and supervision of >your master. > >Be very careful with the lives you will touch. Especially to children, you >will be - like it or not - a very impressive figure in their young lives. >Lead by proper example Mr. Schultz and lead with care in your heart. > >Good Luck > >Sincerely, >SESilz I know of two instances under my Master that 1st degree BB have started dojangs, and both ventures had some pretty heavy strings attached concerning supervision. As I understand both, they were not considered to be independent dojangs, but branch operations. One was run by a lady who I frequently worked out with in our common quest for a 1st Dan. She had an advantage because she taught Tai Chi as a university PE instructor, and added TKD when she got the BB. Her students were considered to be part of my dojang body, and they would test along side the rest of us. In the other case, I also knew and liked the two gentlemen who opened up, but their school was a commercial failure, most likely because they opened in a part of town where the MA market was saturated. Silke, more power to you for opening a school. Follow Mr. Silz' advice, and let me add some of my own: Teach because you want to teach, not for the $$$. You won't get rich today, tomorrow, next year, or next decade, but if you have a responsive public and give good instruction, the $$$ will follow. Robert W. Hostetler Office: hostetb@indy.navy.mil Indianapolis, IN Home: hostetb@iserve.net The Rodney Dangerfield of USTU sparring... ------------------------------ From: "Silke Schulz" Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 18:26:25 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #542 Ray wrote: >I'm curious... You're a lady with a new dojang in a small town in the >California desert, near a military base. Yes? >In your opinion, what types of issues, if any, have come up that may not >have come up were you a male in that same position? Interesting that you should ask that. For my Instructor Thesis, I investigated the "yin" and the "yang" of being a Woman Martial Arts Instructor and School owner. Thus far I haven't encountered any of the negative issues that I know can possibly arise based on my research. I suspect, however. that this is partly due to three things: one being that I am a former Marine; two, the fact that I've only been open for a short time; and three, the fact that a male Jujitsu instructor hooked up with me almost immediately upon my arrival. Actually, my classes are fairly balanced male/female--though there is a slight skew to females, and most are NOT in the military. One woman is an active reserve, and several others are civil service. It is almost an even split adults vs children, too. Silke Schulz ------------------------------ From: "John Groff" Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 02:04:24 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Copyrights > This copyright business seems like a good idea. I believe Kuk Sa Nim In Hyuk > Suh has done the same thing with the term "Kuk Sool." > Boy, I was going to ask a question about whether or not Gen. Choi or the SK > government has legal rights to the term "Taekwon-Do" but the possibility of > ensuing flames has prevented me. Oops, wait a minute... lol I've wondered about this. . .while copyrighting a particular sequence of movements (dance coreographers do this too), or the name of a company, Kuk Sool and Taekwon-Do, not to mention Karate, Tang Soo Do, etc. are in truth terms of such generic consequence, being more often than not so widely used by so many different groups, it is a wonder that anyone would be granted "possession" of them by a legal body in the know regarding martial arts history. On the subject, if my feeble memory serves me correctly, I believe that in the U.K., one of the Moo Duk Kwan founder Hwang Kee's former students applied for and received a (national) copyright on the term "Moo Duk Kwan". The former student (I'm not listing the name because I can't remember it offhand, not because I don't want anyone to know it) had broken away from Hwang's association to form his own. So, oddly enough, in the U.K., Hwang Kee's Soo Bahk Do Federation can't use the words "Moo Duk Kwan" on their patches. . . I have to wonder how many people receive copyrights on general terms such as those mentioned above simply because others who use those terms don't have the money or power to challenge their claims. Interesting to consider the ramifications. . . - --cj ------------------------------ From: "Emil J. Fisk" Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 23:10:03 +0800 Subject: the_dojang: poomse in competition On my way to class today, I saw a sign about an invitational TKD tournament for poomse. I then started thinking about what we've been discussing lately, and I must say that I still think this is very unusual. I always thought that poomse competitions were non-existent in the WTF system. I saw parts of the ITF World Championships in Argentina (?) and saw them competing in poomse, I've seen karate tournaments compete in kata, but I've never personally been to a tournament that has categories for competing in poomse. Does anyone know if these happen in Korea? Sincerely, Emil Fisk ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 07:46:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #543 ******************************** Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com ===================================================================== To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.