From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #544 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Sun, 31 Oct 1999 Vol 06 : Num 544 In this issue: Re: the_dojang: poomse in competition the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #543 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #543 the_dojang: In Response the_dojang: USTU Competition Re: the_dojang: In Response the_dojang: Poomse? You mean tuls, right? WTF belt stuff the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~775 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 08:03:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: the_dojang: poomse in competition > I always thought that poomse competitions were non-existent in the WTF > system. I saw parts of the ITF World Championships in Argentina (?) and saw > them competing in poomse, I've seen karate tournaments compete in kata, but > I've never personally been to a tournament that has categories for > competing in poomse. Does anyone know if these happen in Korea? Don't know about Korea, but I don't think I've ever attended a tourny in the USA, USTU blessed or not, that did not include poomse competition. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Silke Schulz" Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 08:22:40 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #543 Illona wrote: >How do you advertise, Silke? Mike told me that they don't have a PennySaver >for that area ... and the newspaper didn't pull for him. Do you do flyers or >billboards or what? I'm currently trying the newspaper for the first time, though I, too, suspect that it's not going to pull. I have done fliers....I'm not sure they worked either. No billboards yet. I think four (smile) things are working in my favor right now--location, location, location, and word-of-mouth (which in a small town such as this, absolutely must be positive!). Next weekend, I've asked my Jujitsu instructor to work the booth at our business expo (I will be at meetings and competing at our National tournament). I will print up special fliers for that with a different offer to see how that works. Another offer can be tricky, though, with my standard first month free offer. I have to work it just right so I don't give away the store!! Where are you located? And can you tell me a little more about what you do that works? Silke Schulz ------------------------------ From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 11:19:06 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #543 In a message dated 10/31/99 7:55:58 AM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << the fact that a male Jujitsu instructor hooked up with me almost immediately upon my arrival. >> Silke, Tell us more about this .... please? Do you share the building and the rent? Illona ------------------------------ From: "tink" Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 10:48:45 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: In Response Sally... Thank you for your words...I had no idea that I was making negative comments about Olympic Style Sparring... I never said the Tenets were not adhered to...I simply commented on how they would be pushed to the limit because of the intense physical and mental training required as well as the social interface with competitors from everywhere as well as Masters and Grand Masters... I have attended many USTU events and not all competitors adhere to the Tenets...it is rather disgraceful to see unsportsman-like conduct as well as lack of respect for other Martial Artists...they may have the skills and the stamina but lack in courtesy, integrity, and self control. Unfortunately, it happens leaving some competitors ill-served. I did not say that hand techniques were unheard of...I simply stated they are ALMOST unheard of...meaning they may be 10% to 20% of the techniques thrown if that much...there are many martial artists which I would not desire to be in front of when they throw a punch...my comment was that the hand technique had to displace the body...not many martial artists in the heat of competition can deliver an effective punch...though some can...hand techniques are just not as common in Olympic Style Sparring...that's all... I believe I commented on being a difficult path...meaning it would take intense, elite training to achieve the goal...I happen to personally know of two such individuals...and they train continuously...they have been for years to try make it in the 2000 Olympic games... Oh, by the way, it's not all dog-eat-dog, fight-to-the-death, only-the-winner-survives competition -- and I've never seen any of the competitors dropkick any babies or dogs. I'm not sure what prompted this statement...I never made any reference to such and never would...but I have seen some very intense competition and a few knock-outs...Not many...just a few...not typical to the competition at all as I have seen the same in point tournaments. there is no requirement for the master to contact the "Olympic Committee for Tae Kwon Do" (since there isn't one). Well....perhaps...but the Grand Masters that I have the pleasure of knowing and training under, form the WTF, and ITF, all contact the Olympic Committee in Colorado when they have students wishing to compete at that level...but I could be mistaken... Any individual can contact the United States Taekwondo Union, which is the National Governing Board for Taekwondo, and ask for further information. True... very true...thank you To Strange that he shows up for USTU Ceremonies if he is a member of the ITF. I believe if you check a little further, you'll find that Master Rhee was not the only Taekwondoin who pushed for TKD as an Olympic Sport -- that probably much more credit should be given to members of the WTF in South Korea. OK...I never said he was the ONLY one to push for it... said he pushed for it...and if you check into the history....you will find it was the WTF in South Korea that opposed the push for the Olympic Sport, when it was first being pushed, because they felt it deviated from the traditional art and compromised it...it took years to convince them otherwise...GM Jhoon Rhee was a spearhead in the push...NOT the only one....he had many supporters...some of which I am sure were WTF Members from South Korea...if they had not been...I doubt the acceptance would have occurred as soon as it did... GM Jhoon Rhee is ITF...That does not prevent him from attending WTF tourneys and events...just as WTF GM attend ITF events...there are no restrictions from that standpoint... Question for you Sally...why all the adversarial comments?...trying to prove a point?...don't read more than what's written... The One and Only... Tink ------------------------------ From: Tkdtiger@aol.com Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 11:51:33 EST Subject: the_dojang: USTU Competition In a message dated 10/31/99 9:53:30 AM Central Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Can you tell me when the Palgwes became acceptable for USTU state and national competitions? Just curious. I know they changed all of the referees signals about a year ago, reducing the number by regrouping the 1/2 point and 1 point infractions. >> I think it was about 4 years ago - or so. It has been quite awhile, although many people still think they need to do taegueks. Actually since so few referees know the palgues, the competitors who do palgues usually end up scoring higher than those who do taeguek - weird but true ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 11:49:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: the_dojang: In Response > I did not say that hand techniques were unheard of...I simply stated they > are ALMOST unheard of...meaning they may be 10% to 20% of the techniques > thrown if that much...there are many martial artists which I would not > desire to be in front of when they throw a punch...my comment was that the > hand technique had to displace the body...not many martial artists in the > heat of competition can deliver an effective punch...though some can...hand > techniques are just not as common in Olympic Style Sparring...that's all... It is very true that at the elite level almost zero points are scored via hand techniques. In the WTF Magazine about a year or so ago they published a study of points by technique, at elite level events. In that study they encountered ZERO points by hand technique. (see issue v05.n398 for details) However, eleven months ago I was at the Pan-Am TKD Champs in Lima, Peru, (just to watch) and actually saw a hand technique score!!! A USA teammate scored with a reverse punch to the center of the hoju and the opponent went down, boom! They were using electronic scoring and nothing was showing!?! Some of the officials that happened to be watching that match quickly interrupted to inquire as to what-the-hell was going on, a point finally showed up on the monitor. > and if you check into the history....you will find it was the WTF in > South Korea that opposed the push for the Olympic Sport, when it was first > being pushed, because they felt it deviated from the traditional art and > compromised it...it took years to convince them otherwise... Ummmm, are you sure about that? Any cites/references you can point us to? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Christopher Spiller" Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 13:03:54 PST Subject: the_dojang: Poomse? You mean tuls, right? >I always thought that poomse competitions were non-existent in the >WTF >system. I saw parts of the ITF World Championships in >Argentina ?) and saw >them competing in poomse, I've seen karate >tournaments compete in kata, >but I've never personally been to a >tournament that has categories for >competing in poomse. Does anyone >know if these happen in Korea? >Emil Fisk The ITF doesn't compete in poomse they do TULS! Kata is straight out! What do think, Taekwon-Do has something to do with karate? ;-) I was unable to see any of the recent ITF world championships even though FOX was broadcasting them. I have a feeling they didn't think there'd be enough interest in the US for air time :( . I was at a training camp in Colorado back in 1993. Then Master Sereff had two BB's demonstrate tuls to the rest of us. Mr. Nunez did a great performance of Moon Moo. Mr. Winegar did Tong Il and demonstrated why he is the USTF's director of technique. If the ITF competitors did their patterns half as good as these gentlemen I would have loved to have seen that competition. When I was with a WTF Master there was no tul, I mean poomse competition at the national or international level but the local and state tournaments we went to had them. After a while I believe the USTU added a creative hyung, I mean poomse division (so how can you tell if they do the pattern wrong?). I don't think that the WTF has poomse competition at the world level, however. (Can anybody out there with a working knowledge of Korean explain the literal meanings of the words "tul", "poomse", and "hyung"? Any idea why the different organizations/arts use the different terms?) I know there's a tournament held in Korea where they compete in poomse AND breaking but I can't remember the name. It's my understanding that the poomse division is "creative poomse" where the competitors make up their own forms to do. I'm not sure if they have a division for regular forms (Taeguks & Black belt forms). Any of you listers out there in the Land of the Morning Calm know of what I speak? Taekwon, Chris ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 14:29:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: WTF belt stuff Sorry to bring up the old color belt thread again, but I was a bit surprised to find this on the WTF's website: http://www.worldsport.com/worldsport/sports/taekwondo/home.html Ray Terry - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The white belt is for beginners, holders of 9th and 10th Keup and the yellow one is worn by 7th and 8th Keup holders. The green belt is used by 5th and 6th Keup graders and the blue one by 3rd and 4th Keup holders. The red belt is worn by the 1st and 2nd Keup holders. The black belt is for Taekwondo experts who hold Dan grades ranging from 1st to 10th Dan. The red/black belt is for those holding 1st through 3rd Poom in the junior division. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 17:57:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #544 ******************************** Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com ===================================================================== To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com in pub/the_dojang/digests. 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