From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #562 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Wed, 10 Nov 1999 Vol 06 : Num 562 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #561 the_dojang: Re: Roundhouse Variations the_dojang: Kwans continued the_dojang: Deep muddy waters the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #561 the_dojang: More Responses the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~780 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Silke Schulz" Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 07:24:16 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #561 The following question was posed: >>Does your school teach the traditional roundhouse - "knee out and around" version or the >>"knee in front and pivot" last second version( or both). The latter is to be quicker of >>course and harder to defend against. I teach both versions. The first version as a "forms" application and the latter as a sparring application. In this same manner, I teach a thrusting side kick as a "forms" application and the quicker, WTF-style side kick as a sparring application because of it's speed. I, too, believe the "sparring" applications for these two kicks are quicker and more difficult to defend against. The "forms" style kicks have bigger chambers and those are big telegraphs in sparring. However, for power and breaking, I prefer the bigger chambers. My humble 2 cents worth, Silke Schulz ------------------------------ From: "Stratton, Sam" Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 07:45:43 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Roundhouse Variations In our dojang all kicks (with the exception of turn hook or other reverse variants) appear as front kicks, with the knee travelling in the forward direction, then once the knee is forward of the hip the change into the various kicks are made, with the side kick blending the knee-up movement into the pivot bringing the knee around to the opposite side of the body, thats another difference between dojangs that I have noticed: the amount of pivot achieved before extending the side kick, our dojang pivots slightly more than 180 degrees before the extension of the striking leg. some schools only pivot 90 or so, the shorter pivot is quicker but does not have the power. Thanx Sam Stratton * 206-544-7837 * 206-797-6510 *MC 17-MK http://www.freeyellow.com/members6/transamsam/ Customer Airlines Computing Support Focal Boeing Field and Valley Exchange Focal "Who do you want to spam today?" ------------------------------ From: JEREMYT@ATFI.COM (JeremyT) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 09:55:07 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Kwans continued "I'm still having a hard time understanding what would be gained by going back to a non-standardized system. Agreed. I guess I haven't seen that. " Now what would you mean by non-standardized system? Prior to the formation of the KTA, each Kwan had its own curriculm. The developement of the KTA just basically got them all together under one roof and all under one curriculm. However there is a lot more at play than just all the Kwan leaders saying "hey why don't we get together". The government had a big play in this. No one is saying that TKD should be disbanded and all should go back to the Kwans. Far from it. What I would like to see is actual Kwan representation. Like Ray said, as we like to know where we are from, so would we like to know where are art is from. Jeremy MACS ------------------------------ From: JEREMYT@ATFI.COM (JeremyT) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 10:08:37 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Deep muddy waters Sally wrote: "So... a kwan was basically just an individual school -- on the order of Smith's TKD down the block and Jones's TKD around the corner in the US today? Or was there a much larger affiliation in kwans - as in, say, Shotokan Karate and Shorin-Ryu Karate are both types of karate, each with a very large following." Close. However it would more like Smiths Shotokan school and Jones Goju-ryu school. There wasn't a whole lot schools at that time, pretty much you knew all the schools and who they learned from. "And why is there such a seemingly great desire to get back to the kwan system when the unification of Taekwondo seems to be what gave it the recognition and allowed it to become such a popular martial art in the world today?" This could go back to better individual control of schools and where some people may feel that they don't like the direction that TKD is heading. TKD has become a very popular martial art, but the traditionalists believe for the wrong reasons. They feel the sport aspect is hindering its true intent as a form of self defense. (Please no flames on this, I'm just letting you know the most popular argument from traditionalists). "When my son was competing in Karate tournaments, one of the most maddening things was that there would be judges and referees who had no knowledge of a particular style's forms and would give extremely low scores to a competitor because he wasn't doing the "right" (i.e., "their") forms. Another side of tournaments without any seeming rhyme or reason was rules for sparring -- they varied from person to person, place to place, and you could never be sure what rules a judge or referee might be applying." This is just good ol' "I'm friends with your master so here's a score of 8, but I don't know his master so here's a score of 3" This is the biggest reason why I left the competitive ciruit. I saw traditional forms that were done beautifully, lose out to a gymnastics act that was half assed. This will be like this until the end of time. If do feel that TKD tournaments are for the most part a lot better ran than karate tournaments. "Help! : ) I guess I'm just swimming in deep, muddy waters." Your not swimming in muddy waters your waying knee deep in some quicksand. This debate/discussion has been around since the conception of the KTA and will be around long after I'm 6' deep or as my case will be, scattered across this land and Korea. Jeremy MACS Sally cbaughn@aol.com ------------------------------ From: Ian Miller Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 11:14:43 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #561 > > From: IMATC@aol.com > Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 16:24:05 EST > Subject: the_dojang: Re: Roundhouse Variations > > Here's a trivial little question for you. Does you school teach the > traditional roundhouse - "knee out and around" version or the "knee in front > and pivot" last second version( or both). The latter is to be quicker of > course and harder to defend against. > > ------------------------------ > > From: TKDSCRIBE@aol.com I'm another list watcher who has decided to come out of the wood work with a few comments ;-) We are a very sport based, olympic sparring school, and we work almost excusively with the knee in front version. It's much faster, and can be thrown from such a multitude of footwork and angles that it is an indispensible tool. I also wanted to comment on the thread in regards to sportsmanship over the last couple of days. In my experience, sportsmanship tends to improve more and more the higher up the competitors go. If you watch the people who compete at the elite level, they are always professional and treat the refs, coaches and competiors with the utmost respect. They bow to their coach before they enter the ring, they bow the head table, and they shake hands with the other competitor at the beginning of the match. At the end, despite winning or losing, they bow to the other opponents coach. It is this kind of a professional attitude that all coaches should foster in their students. Besides, if it comes down to a tie break, it won't hurt to have presented yourself in this manner. Might just sway it your way if the match was otherwise equal. As a matter of intrest, does anyone on the list have any experience with CISM (military) TKD competition? Ian Miller ------------------------------ From: "tink" Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 12:40:35 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: More Responses I would like to change the question a little. Do you keep the weight on the ball of the foot, the heel or both while kicking? Do you fully extend the knee (straight leg) or keep knee slightly bent? I kick with the weight on the ball of my foot almost all of the time...I only put weight on the heel or both when I lose balance, in certain sparring situations, or some side kick breaking techniques. I never fully extend my knee...always a slight bend...I like my knees to work properly...already have problems with one knee...don't wish to make it worse...I like walking... ere's a trivial little question for you. Does you school teach the traditional roundhouse - "knee out and around" version or the "knee in front and pivot" last second version( or both). The latter is to be quicker of course and harder to defend against. I teach knee out and around for proper technique of the art...however...I also demonstrate and explain the knee up and pivot for sparring purposes...they both have their place...but when teaching the basics...its knee out and around...I believe in maintaining the basics and passing them on as developed...this maintains the integrity of the art style...the latter, as I said, is taught for sparring and defense...I expect students under me to teach knee out and around...then offer the latter as the alternative in sparring and defense...Teaching proper technique as the basic will develop the speed and power...as well as the variations of technique... Maybe the conduct of the Taekwon-Doin would improve if the refs. started disqualifying people for bad conduct. I have on 3 occasions, that I can remember, as center referee disqualified contestants for misconduct...I agree...It needs to be done more often...too many getting away with bad attitudes and behavior... Any US Marines out there? "Semper Fi"...Live or Die! Happy Birthday Jarheads... From a Squid...Your Chauffer to Golden Sands and Beaches The One and Only... Tink ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 14:12:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #562 ******************************** Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com ===================================================================== To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.