From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #571 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Wed, 17 Nov 1999 Vol 06 : Num 571 In this issue: the_dojang: MACS Re: the_dojang: MACS the_dojang: together the_dojang: First time black belt the_dojang: Re: MACS the_dojang: Re: korean language list the_dojang: Patterns the_dojang: Re: Inverted roundhouse kick the_dojang: budo/moo do the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #570 the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~780 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JEREMYT@ATFI.COM (JeremyT) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 16:58:32 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: MACS Chris wrote: "There are poeple out there that do want the arts unified in a political way. They want one big organization overseeing several arts." I see what you are saying here, but just to give a better description, we don't want to oversee any art. We are more of a hub for the different arts. For one person might want information on an art, we can get them in contact with people who can provide that information. We do not in any way that I know of oversee an political stuff. We do not rank within the organization. We recognize people's ranks through their own organization be it USTU, IKKF, KHA, IKF, ITF, etc. We are simply a group sharing ideas and information. I hope this better explains our mission. Jeremy MACS ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 15:33:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: the_dojang: MACS > we don't want to oversee any art. We are more of a hub for the > different arts. For one person might want information on an art, we > can get them in contact with people who can provide that information. > We do not in any way that I know of oversee an political stuff. We do > not rank within the organization. We recognize people's ranks through > their own organization be it USTU, IKKF, KHA, IKF, ITF, etc. We are > simply a group sharing ideas and information. I hope this better > explains our mission. Sounds like another ATAMA, American Teachers Association of the Martial Arts. It is an organization where teachers and students come together to share. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 15:49:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: together > "art" - I don't believe that is what it's all about. I think General Choi > tried that in Korea and it didn't work, in fact, it looks as if it led to > greater splintering in Korean styles. Or did it work very well? Most all of the Tangsudo/Kongsudo/Taesudo styles united. Only a part of one of the Tangsudo styles didn't. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ian Miller Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 19:57:54 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: First time black belt I'm about to go into my first competition as a black belt this weekend. I'm sure it's going to be an awakening compared to the level of competition I've been used to over the last few years as a coloured belt. I was wondering if anyone had any good stories relating to their first fight as a black belt, and as well, if anyone had any advice for the first time black belt fighter? Ian Miller ------------------------------ From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:47:23 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: MACS In a message dated 11/16/99 4:44:56 PM Central Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: " Egos didn't exist. I could give you a 99% guarantee that if you asked the participants what they felt there, they would tell you that they felt the brother/sisterhood of the martial arts. Sorry to babble. Anyway we are not trying to combine all arts as one art, we are simply bringing them together to learn from one another. " sounds great, jeremy. so could you say a little more about how one joins MACS? what is the geographical span of MACS? you mentioned bringing folks from all over the world. is that right? sounds wonderful to have so many people driven by knowledge and not egos. melinda ------------------------------ From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:51:48 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: korean language list In a message dated 11/16/99 4:44:56 PM Central Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: " Introducing the LearnKorean Discussion Lists - - LearnKorean1-L for Beginners - - LearnKorean2-L for Intermediate and Higher Level Learners >> what a wonderful learning tool. i'm there! thanks, ray. melinda ------------------------------ From: Andrew Pratt Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 14:10:15 +0900 Subject: the_dojang: Patterns Dear all, I originally posted this a couple of weeks ago but it seemed to get swamped by the belt-meaning thread. I hope this time there will be a more enthusiastic response. I have two questions relating to patterns. 1. I am interested in Hapkido knife patterns. I have only seen a few of these. I saw a simple one recently and thought it might be fun to learn it. The sequence is a knife (dobong?) defence against sword (shinai/chukto). The sequence goes something like:: 1.attacker attacks with a straight cut. defender blocks with the knife above the head) like a high block. 2. Attacker than attacks to the defender's face. Defender blocks 3. Attacker now attacks the defender's hip on the right hand side. The defender blocks to the right with the pint facing downwards 4. Attacker now strikes at the defenders leading foot. The defender now jumps over the strike. My second question is about the patterns used in Taekwon-do and its derivatives. I would like to compile a list of patterns that each art teaches. I would be grateful if any list members could fill in the many blanks: 1. WTF TKD Changhun a. Palgwe - not always taught anymore. I can only remember learning one or two. I may have been taught them when I had a short spell at Tangsoodo b. Taeguk - Developed in 1972 c. - Dan patterns. Do not seem to have a name as a group. 2. ITF WTF a. Chonji - first set of patterns developed by General Choi based on his experience of Shotokan Karate (I am not trying to start a flame war here) 3. Tangsoodo/Subakdo a. Pyung-ahn hyung b. Chilsung - high level patterns based on interpreting the 'kwonbop' pattern described in the Muye Tobo T'ongji c.Yuk-ro - six paths? 4. Songham TKD a. Pyong Ahn b. WTF TKD patterns 5. Choi Kwan-do Any other schools or styles? Moving away from TKD: 7. Hapkido No standardized set of patterns. Some schools teach patterns of varying length, others have no patterns. 8. Kuk Sul Won 9. Hwarangdo Any replies gratefully received. If this list can be 'completed' then I will re-post it to the list. Thanks in advance, Andrew Pratt ------------------------------ From: Piotr Bernat Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:18:32 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Inverted roundhouse kick Hello David, >> Is there a Korean def for the inverted roundhouse kick? This is where you >> kick, with the ball of the foot, at a 45 deg angle? Maybe this is call >> something else... Thanks. I`m not sure if you are talking about the twisting kick. Check out my site at http://www.taekwondo.prv.pl, go to the Gallery and there is a picture of a twisting kick. If it`s exactly what you are interested for, the Korean name for it is bituro chagi. Regards - -- Piotr Bernat dantaekwondo@lublin.home.pl http://www.taekwondo.prv.pl ------------------------------ From: Andrew Pratt Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 17:27:00 +0900 Subject: the_dojang: budo/moo do Dear all, Last week the following was posted: >> From: TKDSCRIBE@aol.com Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 04:35:39 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #537 In a message dated 10/29/99 6:51:42 AM Mountain Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << In the spirit of budo, Silke Schulz >> I think, sir, if we are applying a Korean term here, it would be "moo do." Any thoughts? SESilz << The following is going to be very pedantic, for which I apologize in advance, but I hope it will be relevant. SESilz is correct to say that the Korean pronunciation of the Chinese ideographs 'Wu Tao' which are pronounced in Japanese as 'Budo' are pronounced 'Mudo' in Korean. However what interests us more is the philosophical idea behind the characters. The Korean dictionary in the office gives us the meaning 'knighthood.' This doesn't mean much and is, in fact, a poor translation. It is best to start with the Japanese, because I don't think that the characters are used this way in China. Budo has come to be translated as 'the way of the warrior' in the sense that it provides a moral code for how the warrior should behave. (hope I got that right ;-). It probably did not exist as a concept while Japan went through it's long period of civil wars though its roots lay in this period. Budo probably developed after Hideyoshi failed to conquer Korea at the end of the 16th century. Budo was (probably) used during the Meiji to reassure and control the samurai class as the Meiji reformers upturned traditional Japanese society. To survive, many of the jutsu(jitsu) schools re-invented themselves as 'do's where the artist concentrated on improving and perfecting themselves. Budo was also used to cement and drive the Imperial army, which was a civilian organisation. I am willing to be proved wrong, but I don't think I have seen mudo used in traditional Korean texts concerning the military. As related above, I think the characters are strongly tied to Japan's ma tradition. For much of Korea's history, though there has been a military, there has been no, or little, ma tradition. The Korean military was almost always under civilian control (except for a coup during the Koryo period) and was conscription based and so the army was generally unenthusiastic and under trained. The officer class did have war manuals and may have trained in martial arts. However, the underpinning of this training was always an understanding of Confucian ethics, not practical military tactics as we understand them. Individual practise for the betterment of art or soul was almost unknown. Various heroes are presented to us from the Hideyoshi invasion but there are problems with most of the candidates. Also since Korea was generally at peace, there was little reason for Koreans to train in martial arts, either in public or secret. In contradiction to this, strong-arm tactics have had a profound effect on Koreas political development. Various kings either seized the throne, or were put on the throne, thanks to (as my tutor called them) 'the men with swords.' However, it is unclear if, or what, they trained in. These people did gather armed forces around them, but they were probably militia, not warriors, and may have been no more than thugs. So historically, I do not think there was the grass-roots interest in military matters to encourage the development of a mudo. Things change in the modern period. The Japanese Imperial regime, after first crushing Korean civil society, tried to militarize it. Kendo and Judo were introduced. Young, enthused Koreans also learned Karate (mostly in Japan). Does this mean they learned budo or mudo? Finally, as was recently pointed out in a recent TKD thread, the stated purpose of (WTF) TKD is that is a sport, not a martial art. Again, is it write to refer to such as budo/mudo? So, my personal feeling is that though the term mudo can be constructed in Korean, it neither has historical or current philosophical grounding. Budo is a better term because it is grounded in tradition and it's meaning can easily be accessed, and can probably be applied equally well to the constructed philosophy of modern Korean martial arts. I told you it was pedantic. I hope it made some sense. Yours, Andrew ------------------------------ From: "Vaught, Clifford (CLF N6Y2K8)" Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 08:38:55 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #570 Chris, Thank you so much for your reply - it was great. I totally agree with the lack of principle of someone who would "squat" on a trademark - that would be Kang Uk Lee who even uses Soo Bahk Do in his organization's name (UK Tang Soo (Soo Bahk) Do - Moo Duk Kwan Federation). And Martial Way versus Martial Art is a good comparison. In SBDMDK we have a term Moo Do Shim Gong which refers to the spirit of the martial artist. I think that is the essence. My reference to Gen. Choi is from my understanding of the situation in Korea at the time right after the war there when TKD gained the approval/support of the government. In that case it appeared to me to be an attempt by the government to stamp out other organizations and styles, "unifying" all schools/practitioners in a single art/style. I could be off on that one. Ryu Pa natural? Yes, we're by nature social, however, egos once involved can do some amazing things to organizations. I have seen the same Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan forms performed by Tae Kwon Do Moo Duk Kwan practitioners and they are so close, yet they are definitely different. I think perhaps Ryu Pa refers more to the technique side of the arts while philosophically, the goal of the martial artists across the many, in this case Tang Soo Do, organizations has not changed. Enjoyed it! Soo Bahk! Cliff Vaught - --------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Spiller" Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 08:36:14 PST Subject: the_dojang: Diversity of arts vs. diversity of orgs. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 07:30:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #571 ******************************** Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com ===================================================================== To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.