From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #575 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Fri, 19 Nov 1999 Vol 06 : Num 575 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #571 the_dojang: Re: dojang in Fort Collins the_dojang: subyokchigi the_dojang: Chang Hun heritage? the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #574 the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~710 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chuck Sears Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 21:47:29 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #571 > > From: Andrew Pratt > Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 14:10:15 +0900 > Subject: the_dojang: Patterns > > > ...snip... > > My second question is about the patterns used in Taekwon-do and its > derivatives. I would like to compile a list of patterns that each art > teaches. I would be grateful if any list members could fill in the many > blanks: > > ...snip... > > 4. Songham TKD > > a. Pyong Ahn > b. WTF TKD patterns > The American Taekwondo Association uses the Songahm style forms. It does not use PyongAhn or WTF forms. Songahm translates (somewhat loosely) to "Pine Tree rooted in rock", and is the style designed by Grandmaster H. U. Lee. The forms are much more complex than most other styles of TKD and offer a real challenge to students. ------------------------------ From: "Todd and Debi Deininger" Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 20:47:51 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: dojang in Fort Collins > If you're going to be involved with Colorado State University at all, > you might consider the CSU TaeKwon-Do club. Not TSD by any means, but > we're open to all styles. Right now, we've got several Olympic-style > black belts training with us, one Shotokan guy from Australia, an > awesome Moo Sul Kwan black belt, and a 2nd Dan is Sin Moo Hapkido who > teaches for a few hours every week. My point being, you'd fit right Dave, do you have any more information on the 2nd Dan Sin Moo guy in Fort Collins? Todd Longmont, CO ------------------------------ From: Andrew Pratt Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 19:18:24 +0900 Subject: the_dojang: subyokchigi Dear Emil, Thanks for the link. I have been to the web site. Well, someone is doing something! However, the History and Principles sections tells us all we need to know. I think I can answer most of your questions. (My apologize for the strange format, I have had to copy and paste the text.) >> I had the same thoughts as you re:Subak. I also thought that 'chigi' meant 'strike' and didn't see how the translation to 'clapping hands' came about. I only found one other site that discusses this martial art, and it includes some pictures of techniques and a short historical and philosophical note. The interesting thing about this other site is that it is maintained by part of the Samsung Group. You would think the Koreans would know something about a Korean art! << The 'raw' translation of Subak is 'clapping hands.' But 'to clap' also has the idea of striking or hitting something (even in English). I wrote a recent post on Subak where I explained this. There is similar, if not the same, on my web page (dissertation critique) and article on Choson history (link to ezine) From the link: >> The first mention of Subyokchigi is in the ancient book "History of the Koryo Dynasty", in which it is referred to as "subak" or "subakhoe". However, as early as the Three Kingdoms period - indeed, even dating back to the Ancient Choson period - it is presumed that Subyokchigi had formed and became popular as Korea's own unique martial art and self-defense technique. Warriors competing to become knights were tested for their skill and grace in Subyokchigi, among other subjects, while Subyokchigi was often featured as a soectator sport at royal banquets. Subyokchigi lost its prominence towards the beginning of the Choson Dynasty, which was founded on the principles of Sung Confucianism, and in the aftermath of two waves of foreign invasions, by Japan and by the Ching Dynasty of China. From a public, military exercise, Subyokchigi gradually became more of a private hobby, pushed to the fringe by the growing influence of Confucianism in a civilian administration, and the social dislocation that resulted from the invasions. Later, during the Japanese occupation when all forms of native martial arts were suppressed, and while rapid political and social changes were sweeping the country after Liberation, Subyokchigi fell even further out of the pubilc eye. It was only by the efforts of a handful of devotees that the sport was preserved and is making somewhat of a comeback today. The name "Subyokchigi" or "Sonbyokchigi", meaning "clapping hands", reflects it's most basic principles, which are imprinted from the very first step of training. That is, the movements of the hand ("su"="son")are directly linked to the brain, and they can exert a positive effect on blood circulation and brain mivement. In fact, the light, sound and vibration produced by sonbyokchigi creates a clear and healthy energy ("qi" or "ki")in the body, both physically and spiritually. Thus, the techniques of Subyokchigi are based on the premise that this "ki" and sheer can be combined and used as a discipline of martial arts. << Well it makes the direct link here between Subak and Subyokchigi. Transposing Subak for Subyokchigi in the above paragraphs and you have our (basic) knowledge of Subak. I asked my Korean co-workers, but they don't know either how you get from Subak to Subyokchigi. However, (plse excuse me if you don't practise the WTF patterns, but they are the only ones I know) when I asked him the meaning of the word, he immediately did the moves at the end of Taekuk 7-jang. That is, he put his hand out and did an inner-cresent kick to his hand. There are a couple of good quality pics at the site. The first one is the famous picture of a farmer's festival (the pic is a close up of a larger painting) by Kim Hong-do. Unfortunately, the figures are normally presumed to be practising Taekkyon, not Subak or Subyokchigi. The picture on the history page shows the well known tomb mural from a tomb in North Korea. This picture is often cited as representing fighters by Koreans, but as Dakin Burdick has noted, the figures could be doing anything. The picture on the Principles page is equally out of place. For those who can read them, the page title clearly says that the figures are doing Kwonbop (a Chinese martial art). Korean martial art histories normally proceed from wall murial-hwarang-subak-taekkyon-kwonbop-taekwondo This pages follows that path and is meaningless because the links are not explained. The references to ki, etc are interesting, but again unsourced. No name is given for the practitioner (founder) illustrated. So it appears a modern art claiming a long history and presumably looking for some practitioners. Yours (got to fly, they are locking the office. Don't want to be stuck here all weekend!) Andrew ------------------------------ From: "Hayes, Tommy" Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 10:23:40 -0000 Subject: the_dojang: Chang Hun heritage? Thanks for the info! Of course, yet more questions... > My two cents: Gen. Choi is the "mastermind" of the chang hun > set (which is the correct name). What does Chang Hun mean? > This does not in all cases mean that he has outlined > all details himself. Many of the patterns have been made > in close cooperation with Nam Tae Hi and Han Cha Kyo, > and the pattern Hwa-Rang is, as far as I know, > the sole creation of Han Cha Kyo. They both were > associated with the ITF in the beginning and then > separated to their own organizations. > > Sincerely, > Anders Torvill Bjorvand Does anyone know what inspired these people to come up with the patterns they did? Are they direct descendants from other patterns/katas or are they brand new, with only passing reference to existing forms? Also, I've never heard of Nam Tae Hi or Han Cha Kyo - where are they now? Why did they leave the ITF? (does there have to be a reason for an organisation to splinter? ;-) ) The reason I'm asking is this: I would feel somewhat better knowing that the Chang Hun set was descendant from some other, 'proven' (as in been around a long time) set of patterns. For me, it's a bit like the theory of evolution - if something's been around for a long time it probably means it's doing something right. But these patterns, perhaps 'invented' by three men, have only been around about half a century - what happens if, horror of horrors, these men were 'wrong'?? (I realise there can be no clear-cut right or wrong in such a matter, maybe 'misguided' might be a better term.) Don't get me wrong here - this is not an attack on the ITF pattern set - I practice ITF style myself. I'm just enquiring into my roots... I guess I'm hoping that the Chang Hun set has some kind of 'heritage' to it... Tommy. ------------------------------ From: "Vaught, Clifford (CLF N6Y2K8)" Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 09:15:18 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #574 Chris, Thanks for the reply. Yes, I am an active member of the U.S. Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation headed up by Master H.C. Hwang, Grandmaster Hwang Kee's son. It is not only an interesting organization, but an outstanding one and fun too. I like numerous aspects of the Federation, most notably the standardization of teaching criteria as well as syllabus which is reinforced by the many books put out by the Moo Duk Kwan. I like the ability to go to almost every major metropolitan area and find a school in the Federation where you can plug right in, know the terminology, and feel a part of that school immediately. I like our association with the Korean Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan. I like Grandmaster Hwang Kee's philosophies, particularly Goals 2000. I like the stringent criteria for certification of both schools and instructors. As our instructor prepares for his 6th Dan testing in the spring, we all get to see just how grueling the week long process is. It clearly identifies membership of the Ko Dan Ja as something very special. Interestingly, the several Grandmasters that have left the Moo Duk Kwan have all used the Federation as a model for their own organizations, with some modifications tailored to them. My instructor did attend the 50th anniversary of the Moo Duk Kwan but I couldn't tell you how many of the former members came. I believe Jae Joon Kim, one of GM Hwang Kee's earliest Dans (Dan Bon 38) and head of the World Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do Federation (www.tangsoodo.com) went but I don't know whether Chuck Norris, Jae Chul Shin (see current Black Belt Magazine), C.S. Kim, or Kang Uk Lee, all of whom head up large Tang Soo Do organizations, went. As far as the TKD MDK side, I only know one Grandmaster - James Roberts (www.robertskarate.com) - who was a student of GM Hwang Kee in the early '60's, and I don't believe he went either. One of Master Roberts' Dans studies with us when he's not at-sea (Navy). That's quite a story in itself. I'd recommend Grandmaster Hwang Kee's "History of the Moo Duk Kwan" which can be obtained from headquarters, (888) Soo Bahk, or www.soobahkdo.com. It offers his personal insights on the time period before and after the war, who the major Kwans were headed up by, as well as some great photographs from the earliest days of the Moo Duk Kwan. It comes with an insert to focus on the American aspects of the Moo Duk Kwan. Soo Bahk! Cliff - ------------------------------ From: "Christopher Spiller" Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 15:51:04 PST Subject: the_dojang: Soo Bahk, Ryu Pa, etc. >Chris, >Thank you so much for your reply - it was great. I totally agree >with the >lack of principle of someone who would "squat" on a >trademark - that would >be Kang Uk Lee who even uses Soo Bahk Do in >his organization's name (UK >Tang Soo (Soo Bahk) Do - Moo Duk Kwan >Federation). And Martial Way versus >Martial Art is a good >comparison. In SBDMDK we have a term Moo Do Shim >Gong which refers >to the spirit of the martial artist. I think that is >the >essence. Thanks for the compliment. In reference to the MDK copyright issue: sometimes I think I let things bother me a little too much but when I heard this I didn't think it was a nice way to respect one's instructor. I am not a Tangsoodo or Soobahkdo practitioner but seeing this kind of behavior really rubbed me the wrong way. Yes, I realize I don't know the full story but on its face this situation is not good. Are you affiliated with the US So Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation? I have seen a couple of articles about them in "Inside Karate" (?) over the last couple of years. Looks like an interesting organization. I was rather impressed with their test for 4th dan and up - a week of getting looked over by Hwang Kee's son and then the actual physical test at the end. Reminds me of a "quality control" type measure. >My reference to Gen. Choi is from my understanding of the situation >in >Korea at the time right after the war there when TKD gained the > >approval/support of the government. In that case it appeared to me >to >be an attempt by the government to stamp out other organizations >and >styles, "unifying" all schools/practitioners in a single >art/style. I >could be off on that one. I don't know all the details about this time period, although it is fascinating. I am unsure as to how much governmnt exertion was going on and how much the various kwans WANTED to unite (and to what degree). As for all styles and organizations being involved, I don't know. I have never heard of Hapkido, Kuk Sool, etc. even TRYING to unite with the KTA and Gen. Choi. It does seem to be limited to the Kong soo do type styles (as far as I can tell). >Ryu Pa natural? Yes, we're by nature social, however, egos once >involved >can do some amazing things to organizations. I have seen >the same Soo >Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan forms performed by Tae Kwon Do Moo >Duk Kwan >practitioners and they are so close, yet they are >definitely different. I >think perhaps Ryu Pa refers more to the >technique side of the arts while >philosophically, the goal of the >martial artists across the many, in this >case Tang Soo Do, >organizations has not changed. I was applying your concept of Ryu Pa more to the organizational aspects of martial arts, not necessarily the techniques. It is interesting, however that for the MDK's 50th anniversary GM Hwang held a big "Family Reunion" over in Korea. I saw adds for this in the various MA magazines and thought "What a great idea." Did you (or any of the other list members) attend? I would really be interested in knowing if any MDK Taekwon-Do people from KOREA were there (not just TSD/SBD). Taekwon, Chris >Enjoyed it! >Soo Bahk! >Cliff Vaught ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 06:54:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #575 ******************************** Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com ===================================================================== To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.