From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #576 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Fri, 19 Nov 1999 Vol 06 : Num 576 In this issue: the_dojang: Question On Forms. the_dojang: subyockchigi the_dojang: Re: Chang Hun heritage? the_dojang: Re: subyokchigi the_dojang: Happy Turkey Day! the_dojang: Old BB article the_dojang: List down now, Happy Turkey Day! ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~710 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Oss" Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 10:42:32 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Question On Forms. I once viewed a demonstration form on TV by a Korean Army unit (probably during the Seoul Olympics). Is there a form that is particular to the Korean Army? Or would they be using a higher level Tae Kwon Do form? I have written the Korean consulate but to no avail (or reply). I was very impressed by the expression of strength in its moves (especially when performed by what seemed to be a Company) and would like to learn it. Currently I am looking forward to my Black Belt (ITF Forms) testing this Spring in Toronto ON, and would like to broaden my exposure to the various forms. Having been in the Reserves, the military usually has a document or structure for everything, so I'm hoping that the Korean Forces would have something similar concerning this form. I'm hoping that one of the Dojang Digest subscribers may have come across this in thier travels or contacts and possible point me in the right direction to get this information. Thanks John P. Oss ------------------------------ From: "Emil J. Fisk" Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 00:06:55 +0800 Subject: the_dojang: subyockchigi Hi Andrew, Thanks for the information about subyockchigi. I see your point now when you described the last few steps of Taegeuk 7. Lucky for me, TKD patterns are all I know. The whole discussion of um/yang and chi seem to pervade the martial arts. Try reading about the metaphysical stuff behind the palgwe and taegeuk poomse, and you'll find a lot about um/yang, the human spirit, the creation of the universe and so forth. Sometimes I jokingly wonder that maybe I just don't see those philosophies because I'm not Korean. Furthermore, I'm sure that most martial arts seem to say they are traditional and relate themselves to something that is 2000 years old. It makes no difference whether you call it kwonbop or chuan fa, it's still the same thing. In the end, all styles just teach different methodologies of how you perform a certain maneuver. Some TKD stylists perform a roundhouse kick horizontally, whereas some karateka bring the leg up diagonally. It makes our studies more interesting. I'm constantly trying to figure out the patterns, and taegeuk 7 especially. The inner crescent kick to the hand, followed by the elbow has always been awkward to me ever since I did it in palgwe 7 (that's the earliest usage I can recall). Please tell me there's more to the movement other than holding somebody's head and sandwiching them with the kick and then following up with an elbow strike? Sometimes I think that the steps in the poomse don't quite follow a logical order if you imagined one attacker in front of you and the sequences in which you strike him. I vote for more practical poomse! OK, to TKD's defense, I do see a lot of practical moves in various poomse spread out a bit here and there. It's just the method of application that needs to be changed slightly. That, and they're always a good tool to focus on your basics. And may I ask if you're still studying TKD in ROK, and under whom you're studying? Chances are extremely slim that I'll know since I was only there for a year. Just curious though. Keep on kicking. Sincerely, Emil ------------------------------ From: Anders Torvill Bjorvand Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 17:11:53 +0100 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Chang Hun heritage? At 07:11 19/11/1999 -0800, you wrote: >Anders (me): > My two cents: Gen. Choi is the "mastermind" of the chang hun > > set (which is the correct name). > >Hayes, Tommy: What does Chang Hun mean? Blue cottage. It is the pseudonym of Choi Hong Hi. >Hayes, Tommy: Does anyone know what inspired these people to come up with >the patterns they did? Are they direct descendants from other >patterns/katas or are they brand new, with only passing reference >to existing forms? As far as I know, they are brand new. The Pyong ahns are parallell to the pinan katas, and the palgwes have a heritage from these. However, both the tae geuks and the chang hun are fairly independent. When it comes to being different, I think chang hun "wins". >Also, I've never heard of Nam Tae Hi or Han Cha Kyo - where are they >now? Nam Tae Hi is alive and kicking in his own small organization. He still uses the old/original chang hun set as opposed to the alterations made by the ITF over time. Han Cha Kyo also started his own organization. However, he passed away a few years ago. >Hayes, Tommy: Why did they leave the ITF? I'm not certain, and they have both shown respect for Choi Hong Hi and refers to him as the founder. You have to remember that the close-to-fascist regime of the USA in the 60's/70's along with the cold war, created a climate that made it hard for south koreans to be associated with organizations that cooperated with North Korea (ie ITF). This is most probably the reason they left, in my own opinion. >Hayes, Tommy: (does there have to be a reason for >an organisation to splinter? ;-) ) No. >Hayes, Tommy: The reason I'm asking is this: I would feel somewhat better >knowing that >the Chang Hun set was descendant from some other, 'proven' (as in been >around a long time) set of patterns. For me, it's a bit like the theory >of evolution - if something's been around for a long time it probably >means it's doing something right. But these patterns, perhaps 'invented' >by three men, have only been around about half a century - what happens if, >horror of horrors, these men were 'wrong'?? (I realise there can be no >clear-cut ITF TKD is a clear descendant of shotokan karate. A great deal of changes have been introduced by a great deal of very distinguished martial artists of korea making ITF TKD and other flavors of TKD what it is today. Choi Hong Hi was fortunate enough to be a man of vision and leadership and also being in a position were he could put these great martial artists together. >Hayes, Tommy: right or wrong in such a matter, maybe 'misguided' might be >a better term.) > >Don't get me wrong here - this is not an attack on the ITF pattern set - I >practice ITF style myself. I'm just enquiring into my roots... > >I guess I'm hoping that the Chang Hun set has some kind of 'heritage' to >it... Tradition is a rare thing in MA. Well - remember that ITF TKD is now actually older than shotokan was at the time ITF TKD was formed. Shotokan has no long and proud tradition as a style, but it has a long heritage which has TKD as one of its descendants. Sincerely, Anders T. B. ------------------------------ From: mpeder@attglobal.net Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 10:39:52 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Re: subyokchigi (Andrew Pratt wrote) > There are a couple of good quality pics at the site. The first one is > the famous picture of a farmer's festival (the pic is a close up of a > larger painting) by Kim Hong-do. Unfortunately, the figures are normally > presumed to be practising Taekkyon ____________________________________________ Small point, but the action here is not just presumed to be Taekkyon. It is specifically identified as such in the caption on the painting. The spelling is "Takkyon," where the /a/ sounds like /o/ in "rock." This was a common prononciation in mid/late Choson. This prononciation also had Chinese characters associated with it, though the characters have only been found in one history book. Michael P. ------------------------------ From: Stan Lim Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 12:05:12 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Happy Turkey Day! Since the digest will be down during Thanksgiving... Happy Turkey Day for those of you who celebrate this American tradition! Stan Lim San Jose, CA ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 13:25:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Old BB article Interesting old/short article on Hapkido, http://www.blackbeltmag.com/searchdb/bbm/1965/August/6.html Ray Terry rterry@best.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 13:30:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: List down now, Happy Turkey Day! The lists are down now until 2 December. For those in the US, Happy Thanksgiving! Ray Terry rterry@best.com ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #576 ******************************** Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com ===================================================================== To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.