From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #594 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Sat, 11 Dec 1999 Vol 06 : Num 594 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #593 the_dojang: 'The Trial of Billy Jack' Re: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #593 the_dojang: re: censorship etc. Re: the_dojang: 'The Trial of Billy Jack' the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #593 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #593 the_dojang: Censorship! the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #593 the_dojang: Rest in Peace???? the_dojang: TKDnet the_dojang: Re: Courtesy, Integrity, Self-Control the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #593 the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~710 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jsegovia@mindspring.com Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 21:55:25 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #593 Is the dojang digest only available in digest form? I assume so, since it's of course called the dojang digest. If so, any thought to changing it so that members can received (and respond to) individual messages? Jesse ------------------------------ From: jsegovia@mindspring.com Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 22:02:50 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: 'The Trial of Billy Jack' Like many other Americans, I saw the first 'Billy jack' movie and was very impressed (as well as very young). I remember everybody in my school saying 'I'm gonna take my right foot and whop you on that side of your face, and do you know what?' Of course, I didn't know anything about Hapkido or GM Han BongSoo; I assumed writer and director Tom Laughlin was doing all that stuff himself! I also remember seeing the sequel, 'The Trial of Billy Jack,' at the drive-in theater near our home. I don't remember, but Master Han actually had a role in that movie and, from what I've read, there was even more Hapkido in it. Unfortunately, I've never seen that film again, either on TV ot in any video stores. I've looked for it on-line but with no luck. Does anyone know if that movie is available anywhere? Jesse ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 19:21:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #593 > Is the dojang digest only available in digest form? I assume so, since it's > of course called the dojang digest. If so, any thought to changing it so > that members can received (and respond to) individual messages? I am charged $ on a per msg basis. So one digest issue sent to 700+ people costs the same as one single post sent to 700+ people. I realize that some would like a non-digestified list, but the last time we did a poll only about 12 of 700 indicated that they'd switch to such a list if it were available. Yes, I fully comprehend the dichotomy in my above statements... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Laura Kamienski Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 22:12:43 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: re: censorship etc. For the record, I left tkd.net ages ago of my own accord because I found the debates to get way out of control and off topic. I was asked to come back on several occasions by Glenn and others. I think that if it is true that anyone is being thrown of any list to "put another list to rest" it is a childish list administrator who shows a lack of respect for others and the martial arts in general. These forums should be availabe to learn from and to share information through, not a sparring match or street brawl with winners and losers. Debate is a good method of learning and advancement and can be fun when kept in check If it's good debate, everyone wins IMO. I left TKD.net because there was too much wanting to win which led to a lot of people trying to beat others up verbally. Most of the good lists I'm still on have quiet spells like this one. When someone starts a thread it livens up. The difference is that it doesn't get busy with all the "you're an idiot, you're wrong and you're inferior" posts which I've seen all too often on tkd.net. I hope the dojang digest stays just the way it is, quiet or not. I'd rather be at rest than fight inane pointless fights. Laura Kamienski 1st dan ChinMuKwan Tae Kwon Do - -- lkamiens@ptd.net lkamnski@bucknell.edu http://home.switchboard.com/LKamienski ____________________________________________________ "The destination is not the purpose of a journey; death is not the purpose of life." -Thich Nhat Hanh ____________________________________________________ ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 19:42:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: the_dojang: 'The Trial of Billy Jack' > Like many other Americans, I saw the first 'Billy jack' movie and was very impressed (as well as very young). I remember everybody in my school saying 'I'm gonna take my right foot and whop you on that side of your face, and do you know what?' Of course, I didn't know anything about Hapkido or GM Han BongSoo; I assumed writer and director Tom Laughlin was doing all that stuff himself! > > I also remember seeing the sequel, 'The Trial of Billy Jack,' at the drive-in theater near our home. I don't remember, but Master Han actually had a role in that movie and, from what I've read, there was even more Hapkido in it. > > Unfortunately, I've never seen that film again, either on TV ot in any video stores. I've looked for it on-line but with no luck. Does anyone know if that movie is available anywhere? I just watched part of Billy Jack a few days ago on cable. It is scheduled again on 'Encore Action' this coming Monday and Tuesday. Trial of will possibly follow in a week or so. If you're ever in Prescott, Arizona you can easily recognize where the fight scenes and other scenes for Billy Jack were filmed on and around the Courthouse square. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: d.d.parker@juno.com Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 20:42:01 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #593 Ray, I am sorry to hear about the problems you have had with the administrators of the tkdnet-digest. It doesn't seem right and is against the fraternity that I beleive martial artists should share. Thank you for the time and effort you put into the dojang-digest. You are providing a great service to your fellow martial artists and I appreciate your efforts. I hope you are getting over that flu bug. Daniel ------------------------------ From: d g Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 01:39:29 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #593 > From: Anders Torvill Bjorvand > Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 00:54:31 +0100 > Subject: the_dojang: tkd-lists and censorship > > Dear everybody at Dojang Digest, > > Glenn of the tkdnet-digest informed me "cheerfully" that they had succeeded in > putting the dojang digest to rest. And it seems obvious to me that he might > be right, > considering the unfortunately low activity here. I don't like that kind of > attitute - and > it has very little to do with the values and system of honour and respect > that most > tkd-practitioners are taught. > Sir, this is Glenn's thoughts. no-one elses. I feel that do-chang digest is just as strong as tkd.net. The policy is not limited to where u can or cannot post on here. The only problem I see other than the fact I like individual e-mails compared to digests is that Ray needs to find someone to run the list when he goes away on trips. U will find this a list where there is no price to pay if you are a member. Donna ------------------------------ From: "John Groff" Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 01:34:46 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Censorship! >>On the 19th of November I was removed from the tkdnet-list since they discovered that I had posted to the Dojang Digest also. An unannounced policy that had been introduced after I joined. After receiving an apology from the administrators of tkdnet-digest for how this was handled, I have accepted their apology, but have decided to move on to open lists.<< >>I realize that both the tkdnet and the dojang digests are private property, but with its degree of public attendance, I feel it to be relevant to address the issue of cooperation. openness and censorship.<< This is ridiculous. What other digests or forums a person belongs to are the private business of that individual, and should not be subjected to the whims of some tyrant(s). There is no rational reason to try and restrict >anyone< from obtaining, sharing, and commenting on information, other than to try and drive down the membership of another list. This smacks of pettiness and jealousy--traits most of us try (or at least claim to try) to transcend. Accusing another of infiltraiting a list for less than well intentioned reasons or committing acts of harrassment or sabotage had damn well better be based on some sort of tangible evidence. The lives and reputations of our fellows, whether we like 'em personally or not (or agree or disagree), are not playthings. This kind of crap has ~really~ become tiresomly annoying. Anyone who tries to maintain a monopoly on information cannot have much more than self interest at heart. In regards to this topic (M.A.), it seems rather unfair to use Knowledge as a political tool to smash one's perceived enemies. To continue to do so merely drags innocent bystanders into a personal conflict which should have been resolved or forgiven ages ago. View with caution anyone who wants to control and edit what enters your mind, what comes out of it, or with whom you choose to share it. They do >not< have your best interests at heart. For those of you "monitioring" this and cursing me: For crying out loud, the past is past. It'll be 2000 in only 20 more days. Set an example, turn over a new leaf, let bygones be bygones. Continuing disputes, holding grudges requires so much effort. Over the long run, it will become clear that the effort put into such endeavors is far too taxing, and simply not worthwhile. Chaney Hardman ------------------------------ From: TkdBPerry@aol.com Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 09:01:29 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #593 Dear Anders: I support your feelings that you were treated unfair. I also chose just to move on as I lost interest with the individuals who seemed to believe the list was above reproach. I do not wish to change the views of the leaders of the list, nor insult them. Could those that live an alternative lifestyle be creating a subculture that is definitively higher than any "acceptable" culture that exists within mainstream society? By their own admission they believe in a special modern style that goes beyond the Grandmasters that precede them. A culture that they feel needs not be defended and by a definitely higher authority cannot allow you to question or continue unless you subject yourself to honor the views of the list. Their have been many before you that ascribe to the same principles that, you so very well expressed. Many address them as our "forefathers." See under amendments to the "Constitution of the United States of America." Amendment of, the Constitution of the United States of America, proposed by Congress, and ratified by the Legislatures of the several States, pursuant to the fifth Article of the original Constitution [Proposed 1810; Probably Ratified 1819] If any Citizen of the United States shall accept, claim, receive or retain any Title of Nobility or Honour, or shall, without the Consent of Congress, accept and retain any present, Pension, Office or Emolument of any kind whatever, from any Emperor, King, Prince or foreign Power, such Person shall cease to be a Citizen of the United States, and shall be incapable of holding any Office of Trust or Profit under them, or either of them. I believe in protecting not, abridging the freedom of speech. The Dojang-Digest allows me to do this. I hold being a citizen of the United States more important than excepting position or gains from a list. Bob Perry TkdBPerry@Aol.Com > > From: Anders Torvill Bjorvand > Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 00:54:31 +0100 > Subject: the_dojang: tkd-lists and censorship > > Dear everybody at Dojang Digest, > > I first attended this list on the 15th of May this year and the activity > was high. > On the 5th of June, based on my activity on this list, Glenn from the > tkdnet-digest > invited me to participate on their list. I thought of this as a win-win > situation and > decided I wanted to participate in this list as well. > > On the 19th of November I was removed from the tkdnet-list since they > discovered > that I had posted to the Dojang Digest also. An unannounced policy that had > been introduced after I joined. After receiving an apology from the > administrators > of tkdnet-digest for how this was handled, I have accepted their apology, > but have > decided to move on to open lists. > > I realize that both the tkdnet and the dojang digests are private property, > but with > its degree of public attendance, I feel it to be relevant to address the > issue of cooperation. > openness and censorship. > > I don't want the lists I participate in to restrict me in any way as long > as my posts are > not too far off topic or in any way unlawful, overly hostile to other > members or very impolite in general. > To restrict my meanings or which other forums I participate in is > unacceptable to me. > (the main body of this dialogue deleted for brevity) > Sincerely, > Anders Torvill Bjorvand ------------------------------ From: Joan Bostic Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 08:12:44 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Rest in Peace???? Gee, I didn't realize that the Digest was dead just because many of us get busy during the holiday season! I wonder what other organizations and activities I'm usually involved in are pushing up daisies because of the time of year. Not being a TKD practitioner, I'll hold my tongue about how poorly this Glenn person represents TKD. But, I for one, won't claim him as a fellow martial artist until he learns the basic tenets that most of the arts hold. Keep up the good work, Whos Down in Whoville. The Grinch never wins. Tang Soo! Joan Bostic Two Harbors, MN ------------------------------ From: HKDTodd@aol.com Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 09:28:22 EST Subject: the_dojang: TKDnet I too was kicked off tkdnet for posting here. I also agree that there is no need for that type of censorship. Glenn claims that someone from this list has or is doing some inappropriate things but it is OK for him to do and say anything he likes. Sounds to me like a serious EGO problem. Todd ------------------------------ From: Anders Torvill Bjorvand Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 16:02:58 +0100 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Courtesy, Integrity, Self-Control >And you're hearing all this during the Christmas season? :( Yes - unfortunately :-/ I wish I hadn't... >Ray Terry: You are correct in that members or administrators of an email distribution >list should not be afraid of, or concerned with in ANY way, what other lists >or forums you participate in. Last I checked most of us lived in free >societies. Excellent - or should I say: I thought so :-) Not many would try to enforce such a totalitarian regime like tkdnet have decided to do. A boycott of a related list is childish behaviour unacceptable to grownup, thinking people. >Note that in the past 5.5 years only three people have had to be removed from >this list due to their inability to behave properly and treat others with >respect. You can probably guess who one of those three was... According to Glenn, that should sum well up with him, Rich Kim and Dev. I can understand the need to expell people who, in my case, recruited me to join their list and then tried to force me into boycotting the forum where they found me (Dojang Digest). That is totally unacceptable - actually it's probably not even legal. >I realize that a few (many?) of you have received direct email from this >person indicating that I, Ray Terry, have attempted (succeeded?) in >disrupting his list in the past. I have received such claim - but symptomatically - no proof at all. I thank you for the effort you are putting into this list, Ray. I wish we could all get along, but for the time being, I will stay solely on open lists like the Dojang Digest. I hope all lurkers of this list that also participate in the tkdnet have the courage to face Glenn, Dev and Rich Kim and tell them that most of us don't agree to their position and that their behaviour is unacceptable. Don't let yourself be bullied into participating in this boycott. Sincerely, Anders Torvill Bjorvand ------------------------------ From: Chuck Sears Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 09:29:17 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #593 > > > From: Anders Torvill Bjorvand > Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 00:54:31 +0100 > Subject: the_dojang: tkd-lists and censorship > > Dear everybody at Dojang Digest, > > I first attended this list on the 15th of May this year and the activity > was high. > On the 5th of June, based on my activity on this list, Glenn from the > tkdnet-digest invited me to participate on their list. I thought of this as a > win-win > situation and decided I wanted to participate in this list as well. > ...snip... I had someone e-mail me some time back because I posted to Dojang Digest. This person invited me to come join tkdnet-digest. The message was polite. It wasn't a hard sell and didn't try to convince me that one was better than the other. I did. I stayed on the list about 3 weeks, then unsubscribed. I'm still here on the Dojang Digest. Need I say which one of the two I think is better run? I don't think of Mr. Terry as "owning" the list (although I guess technically, he does). I think of him as being a nice enough guy to do a relatively thankless and time-consuming job that allows the rest of us to have a forum to express our views. Wanna wade in the garbage? Go post to rec.martial-arts for a while. You'll REALLY appreciate Mr. Terry's efforts after that :-) ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 07:48:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #594 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com ===================================================================== To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.