From:      the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com
To:        the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com
Subject:   The_Dojang-Digest V6 #595
Reply-To:  the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com
Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com
Precedence: 


The_Dojang-Digest             Sun, 12 Dec 1999          Vol 06 : Num 595

In this issue:

       the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #594
       the_dojang: listservers
       the_dojang: the censorship broo-hah
       the_dojang: Censorship further examined; a timely topic
       the_dojang: Censorship, part II.
       the_dojang: Way to go Laura; re: censorship
       the_dojang: Mr. Groff=re: Censorship--well stated...
       the_dojang: Serious ego problem or mental problem ? Both, Todd...
       the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #593
       the_dojang: Re:   The_Dojang-Digest V6 #593
       the_dojang: free speech?
       the_dojang: skill loss
       the_dojang: weapons training question
       the_dojang: let it go...
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----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: jsegovia@mindspring.com
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 11:44:48 -0500
Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #594

I know it's time and it's effort, but have you given any thought to moving the list to one of the free list services that might allow more customization?

This may not be the time for another poll but I know that I'd switch to individual messages.

Jesse

Ray Terry wrote:
> I am charged $ on a per msg basis.  So one digest issue sent to 700+ people costs the same as one single post sent to 700+ people.

I realize that some would like a non-digestified list, but the last time we did a poll only about 12 of 700 indicated that they'd switch to such a list if it were available.

------------------------------

From: Ray Terry <raymail>
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 09:23:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: the_dojang: listservers

>I know it's time and it's effort, but have you given any thought to moving
>the list to one of the free list services that might allow more customization?

I think that the LISTSERV product is probably the only other list server
software out there that allows as much or more customization and control
than does Majordomo.  Majordomo is public domain, LISTSERV is expensive.

When I was using Best.com as an ISP I did look at using their homegrown list
server software to host the list, but sendmail (1M) was run at a low priority
so sending out hundreds of copies of a single digest issue could take several
hours (and they reserved the right to begin charging you at a later time 
for the service).  By running Majordomo on my own machine I can get digest
issues out to thousands in a couple of minutes.

Single issues are essentially good for two things; (1) easier to reply to a
msg or thread, (2) for generating more email traffic.  IMHO, more email
traffic isn't what we should strive for.  We should strive for more respectful,
insightful, and informational posts, not just lots of worthless email arguing
"Less filling!  --  Tastes great!".


> This may not be the time for another poll but I know that I'd switch to
> individual messages.

Any time is fine for a poll.  But send your thoughts to me at the below addr,
please don't clutter up the list.

Ray Terry
raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com

------------------------------

From: kim jones <ladytimberland@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 09:31:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: the_dojang: the censorship broo-hah

Okay, I have remained dormant long enough.

I stopped subscribing to tkd-net after a rash of threats from Glenn
surfaced, prompting removal of anybody who posts here.  Of course, those
who might remember when I walked out about a month or two back will also
remember I hopped to another list, but because of the volume of issues I
got from over there (and Yahoo's 3MB limit - for those people who don't
have the $$$ to increase their box), I stopped subscribing to them. 
Besides, I first signed up with Dojang Digest and like how it's run the
best out of all three lists mentioned.

It's childish to threaten to remove people based on their subscription or
postings to another list.  However, if they were causing a ruckus on that
list, of course the administrator has the full obligation to toss a member
out.  But the belittlement was also getting out of hand.  It's sad to say
that there are teenagers who act more mature than seasoned adults.  It's
the small minority who ruin it for the majority.

Short and sweet like kokoma in the wintertime fresh from the grill, I
respect your choices and words.  Please respect mine.  Don't respect me,
fine, have it your way but don't expect me to stoop to your level.  My
paek won to this discussion.

Kim Jones
__________________________________________________
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------------------------------

From: Ken McDonough <maganda44@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 10:09:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: the_dojang: Censorship further examined; a timely topic

Mr. Anders T. Bjorvand correctly noted:

<I first attended this list on the 15th of May this year and the activity 
was high. On the 5th of June, based on my activity on this list, Glenn from
the  tkdnet-digest invited me to participate on their list. I thought of
this as a win-win  situation and decided I wanted to participate in this
list as well.

On the 19th of November I was removed from the tkdnet-list since they 
discovered that I had posted to the Dojang Digest also. An unannounced
policy...>

Response:  What an amazing coincidence, NOT !  Anders, join the crowd. I
do not want to bash a particular individual but since you brought up the
topic I will. The Mean Glenn machine has struck again. I was removed from
this man's list when he openly challenged me on my theory regarding street
self-defense issues. When he began to lose the debate he resorted to
personal attacks. I calmly responded to him since I probably have as much
education in the legal world as he does. He then started bringing up past
incidents which had no bearing on the matter. Thereafter, he removed me
from the list under a false pretext.

There are many individuals who are joining the ranks of being removed 
from Glenn's list. I say "How do you spell relief". I have met many fine
martial artists who welcome reasonable debate and divergent thought. Speak
your mind and don't worry about the Mean Glenn machine. Also, I understand
that Glenn and his staff lurk on this site. If so, HI Glenn. Now, I expect
that individual to tell you that I use two separate accounts and that I
am sneaking around. But, I am here and glad to be here.

I appreciate Mr. Ray Terry's welcoming to this list. Speak up and don't
worry about being removed from a list merely because you post on another
list.

Cheers all,

Ken McD...

__________________________________________________
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Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.
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------------------------------

From: Ken McDonough <maganda44@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 10:11:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: the_dojang: Censorship, part II.

There are many well respected martial artists on this list who have
impeccable credentials. Do not let one "paranoid" ego maniac prevent you
from voicing your honorable and reasonable decisions. We are not in Nazi
Germany you know.

Have a pleasant weekend,

Ken McD...


__________________________________________________
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------------------------------

From: Ken McDonough <maganda44@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 10:17:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: the_dojang: Way to go Laura; re: censorship

Laura stated:

<From: Laura Kamienski <lkamiens@ptd.net>
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 22:12:43 -0500
Subject: the_dojang: re: censorship etc.

For the record, I left tkd.net ages ago of my own accord because I found
the debates to get way out of control and off topic. I was asked to come
back on several occasions by Glenn and others.  

I think that if it is true that anyone is being thrown of any list to
"put another list to rest" it is a childish list administrator who shows
a lack of respect for others and the martial arts in general. These
forums should be availabe to learn from and to share information
through, not a sparring match or street brawl with winners and losers.
Debate is a good method of learning and advancement and can be fun when
kept in check If it's  good debate, everyone wins IMO. I left TKD.net
because there was too much wanting to win which led to a lot of people
trying to beat others up verbally.>

Response:  Laura you made my day. You are among many individuals who feel 
the same way. I recall your posts on that list. Your a reasoned and
intelligent individual who shows keen insight into the issue. I am glad
and relieved to be off the "Mean G Machine" list and here. 

Have a pleasant weekend.

Ken McD...
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com

------------------------------

From: Ken McDonough <maganda44@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 10:27:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: the_dojang: Mr. Groff=re: Censorship--well stated...

Kudos to Mr. Groff, et al for having the courage to say:

<This is ridiculous.  What other digests or forums a person belongs to are
the private business of that individual, and should not be subjected to the
whims of some tyrant(s).  There is no rational reason to try and restrict
>anyone< from obtaining, sharing, and commenting on information, other than
to try and drive down the membership of another list.  This smacks of
pettiness and jealousy--traits most of us try (or at least claim to try) to
transcend.>

Response:  These comments have made me extremely elated. When I was
debating
with the "Mean G Machine" over on the other list I felt like my Jeep's
name, re: LoneWolf. Now, I see that there are intelligent people on this
list and others who have the same ethical code and standard I do. Keep up
the fine comments like this. With positive thoughts like this and the
rather
immature, simplistic, paranoid, and restrictive attitudes on the other list
this list will mature and grow. Believe me there are many seasoned and
outstanding martial artists who are privately saying the same things.

Good job. Have a pleasant weekend.

Ken McD...


P.S. Kudos to Mr. Ray Terry for allowing a forum for the healthy exchange
of ideas on an area many of us love. Keep up the good work. Now, I am 
going to go test drive a Mazda Miata.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com

------------------------------

From: Ken McDonough <maganda44@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 10:41:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: the_dojang: Serious ego problem or mental problem ? Both, Todd...

Mr. Todd noted:

<From: HKDTodd@aol.com
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 09:28:22 EST
Subject: the_dojang: TKDnet

I too was kicked off tkdnet for posting here.  I also agree that there is
no need for that type of censorship.  Glenn claims that someone from this
list has or is doing some inappropriate things but it is OK for him to do
and say anything he likes.  Sounds to me like a serious EGO problem.

Todd  

Response:  The numbers keep growing. What does that tell you. I am not 
here to stir up a hornet's nest but others raised the issues. Since 
shy is not my middle name, I will join the burgeoning crowd of those who
have felt a little beat up by the "Mean G Machine."  Believe me folks,
when you look in the mirror and say, "Was it me" No, it is not you.
It is an ego maniac who spends an indorinate amount of time preying on
the alleged weaknesses of those whom he thinks he can intellectually
take advantage of. It is cowardly behavior. 

You have a wonderful opportunity here to express your martial arts views,
even if they differ from the traditional mainstream or any other
mainstream.
Don't worry about a paranoid schizo who may be reading this right now and
simmering in the debacle he created. 

When I was openly challenged by this individual in a debate and called him
on his statement that he beats up on homeless people, he went into a tizzy.
Ego's are like that. It is like a tea bag. You think it is strong, but then
when you hold it up in the light--you can see right through it.

Keep up the fine work and speak your mind without resorting to individual
or personal attacks,

Cheers,

Ken McD...
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com

------------------------------

From: Tkdtiger@aol.com
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 14:03:14 EST
Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #593

In a message dated 12/10/99 8:43:09 PM Central Standard Time, 
the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes:

<< Now, please do not take this as open posting season on 
you-know-what-net-list. >>
Thank you Ray!  I have more positive things to concentrate on.

Ronda J. Sweet

------------------------------

From: "Silke Schulz" <kicks@ccis.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 12:52:18 -0800
Subject: the_dojang: Re:   The_Dojang-Digest V6 #593

Anders Torvill Bjorvand wrote:
>
>Dear everybody at Dojang Digest,
>
>I first attended this list on the 15th of May this year and the activity
>was high.
>On the 5th of June, based on my activity on this list, Glenn from the
>tkdnet-digest
>invited me to participate on their list. I thought of this as a win-win
>situation and
>decided I wanted to participate in this list as well.
>
>On the 19th of November I was removed from the tkdnet-list since they
>discovered
>that I had posted to the Dojang Digest also. An unannounced policy that had
>been introduced after I joined. After receiving an apology from the
>administrators
>of tkdnet-digest for how this was handled, I have accepted their apology,
>but have
>decided to move on to open lists.
>
>I realize that both the tkdnet and the dojang digests are private property,
>but with
>its degree of public attendance, I feel it to be relevant to address the
>issue of cooperation.
>openness and censorship.
>
>I don't want the lists I participate in to restrict me in any way as long
>as my posts are
>not too far off topic or in any way unlawful, overly hostile to other
>members or very impolite in general.
>To restrict my meanings or which other forums I participate in is
>unacceptable to me.

I don't wish to make this open season either. I simply want you to know that
the same thing happened to me. I prefer to stay on this list rather than
on the other for the same reasons you mention above.
I find it unconcionable to be removed from one list simply because
I've chosen to expand my knowledge by subscribing to more than one list.

Please don't feel like you are alone, and as far as things being
slow....well, all of
these lists have their slow times and their busier times.

Stay warm and safe this holiday season!

Silke Schulz


------------------------------

From: Garrett.Johnson@microbank.com
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 16:35:31 -0500
Subject: the_dojang: free speech?

I've been reading the digest for a short while now and haven't felt like
I wanted to post since I've only been studying a short while.  For most
of the topics I don't feel I know enough yet to post opinions or ask
questions (I know, the only dumb questions are those not asked...) but
when it comes to free speech and the suppression of the same then I'll
join in with the experience gained from the belt that holds up my
Levi's.  

I've never encountered this behavior without being able to associate it
with fear and insecurity.  Since I've never heard of that discussion
group before I guess I can just feel lucky.  Everything I can recall of
what I've seen here has been the kind of discussion I expect from people
with common interests and a professional attitude.

Keep it going!

Garry Johnson
(Gold Belt - TKD)

------------------------------

From: "A. Boyd" <anthonybtboyd@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 20:03:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: the_dojang: skill loss

Thanks for all of the well thought out replies to my 'skill loss' question.  It was nice
to hear that other people find skills fade too and that some of you are also finding
martial arts to be a measuring stick for 'the decline and fall of the western body.' 
 I think that the most telling point in the replies was that I am a specialist in a
weapon rather than a generalist in an unarmed art. This means that any deviance from the
narrow focus of the skill set will be apparent immediately and have an immediate impact.
If as a sword user I enter a pahase of training where I am using my sword poorly then
there is no where to hide from it. This compared to someone who studies hapkido and can
be described, "They kick well, have great breakfalls and hoshinsool but need to work on
punching."  At the end of my day, if the one thing I study felt like crap there's nothing
to dilute the sting. I can't say, "Well, at least my back flip was dead on today!"
 It strikes me as very likely that this would be why I notice the rate of skill loss more
than other martial artists I know personally and consider it to be an issue at all.  Just
for fun I posted the same question on rec.martial-arts.moderated and received 0 replies.
For more fun I posted it to the unmoderated forum and received 0 replies. These two stabs
at 'fun' didn't provide me with much fun....  Actually, I guess, judging by the normal
level of posts on the unmmoderated forum, that I should be thankful.  Ha.
 Anyway, thanks again for the replies, they hit the mark.

=====
Anthony BT Boyd: Swordsman and English Teacher
                 
For illumination on this curious occupation 
please follow this link:
http://victorian.fortunecity.com/operatic/739

ICQ#: 45348443
__________________________________________________
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------------------------------

From: "A. Boyd" <anthonybtboyd@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 20:31:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: the_dojang: weapons training question

 For the past few months I have been thinking of once again adding an unarmed martial art
to my studies. I used to study hapkido but had to stop because it was killing me. I
couldn't study Hai Dong Gumdo and Gum Mu Kwan Hapkido 6 days per week for 2 hours each
per day and still walk (let alone teach, feed myself, blink, etc...)  It really wasn't an
option to decrease the amount of hapkido training time so I respectfully and sadly left
the dojang. Later, I injured my rotator cuff and have decided not to aggravate matters by
returning to hapkido as much as I want to. 
 This has left me investigating different options. When the instructors I interview learn
that I am a Hai Dong Gumdo-in they invariably bring up their own weapons curriculum as
'enticement' for me.
 My question (finally!) is this, at what point do you receive weapons training in your
school and what weapons are taught?  I know there is a vast difference in this aspect of
hapkido training here in Korea but I'm really curious about how different it can get in
that art and others. I know a few Taekwondo schools here that offer short staff but get
the impression that is a bonus and not the norm. I know the TKD schools in my home city
in Canada do not. Tuk Kung Mu Sool offers a wide array but again there seems to be no
conformity between dojangs let alone kwans...
 For example in Gum Mu Kwan Hapkido we could learn a different weapon at each kup. The
sword began at first dan. The first weapon oddly enough was ssang-chul-bong (nunchuks).
The cane came very late in the studies for third dan.  Of all the weapons offered, some
weird and some mundane, only three were a set part of the curriculum. The rest were
entirely optional. That strikes me as unusual and pleasant. The required three were
knife, staff and cane.  

=====
Anthony BT Boyd: Swordsman and English Teacher
                 
For illumination on this curious occupation 
please follow this link:
http://victorian.fortunecity.com/operatic/739

ICQ#: 45348443
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com

------------------------------

From: Ray Terry <rterry@idiom.com>
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 07:22:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: the_dojang: let it go...

Re GU, his list, and his consistently poor behavior...  Just let it go.
Please, no more comments.

Ray

------------------------------

End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #595
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