From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #604 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thur, 16 Dec 1999 Vol 06 : Num 604 In this issue: the_dojang: Ms. Kamienski's questions on achievement and rank Re: the_dojang: Ms. Kamienski's questions on achievement and rank the_dojang: The TAGB--->The Answers the_dojang: Re: One-step Sparring... the_dojang: 3 steps the_dojang: Re: even more TAGB the_dojang: Re: Master Pyo the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~725 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 10:38:13 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Ms. Kamienski's questions on achievement and rank Good Morning or Afternoon All, Ms. Kamienski posted: Hello all, I have a question which has been nagging at me for quite some time now. I think that above all else, personal achievement is the most important aspect of practicing martial arts and that rank should be based on an individual's own improvement and not on a comparison of others at that rank. However, how do you balance a minimum standard of proficiency with that of excellence? It seems to me that since most schools need students to stay alive, it would be imperative that it meet some sort of overall standard within the field of martial arts in general. If it failed, serious students would look elsewhere to practice. So, if rank would be solely based on personal achievement, how do you prevent the minimum standard from declining so that the average student quality ends up following suit? Thanks for your comments. Laura, Perhaps you have almost answered your own question. I agree that personal achievement, if you define achievement as the development or refinement of spirit, mind and body, should be the most important aspect of any martial art. Most of the modern martial arts have a stated philosophy of improvement of the person, (polishing the character) through the rigorous training of the body in martial skills. So yes, physical, mental and spiritual achievement is the purpose of our martial art training, as opposed to martial techniques training where the only purpose is to impart martial techniques. However, to answer your query about using personal achievement as the sole means to assign rank, look back at the history of rank. Our modern ranking system in all styles comes directly from Mr. Kano, Jigaro, the founder of the martial sport of Judo. Judo was never meant to be a sport and was distilled from martial technique systems by removing the more dangerous and lethal techniques. Mr. Kano wanted to develop a way to improve the health of University students in Japan. He devised the ranking system which was based on a judgement of the knowledge of a specific number of techniques and a certain level of proficiency in applying those techniques. Mr. Funakoshi, who was also a school teacher, had dreams of introducing karate into the Japanese education system in much the same way that Mr. Kano had already successfully introduced his Judo. He therefore adopted Mr. Kano's system of rank in order to be able to standardize and quickly assess the relative ability of a practitioner. In essence, the ranking system was begun as a method to assess at a glance the level of physical ability if you don't know everyone personally. Personally, I like the older system where there were no ranks. You knew you were on your way when the person you were studying under told you to teach advanced techniques to someone less skillful. Or perhaps when your master assigned you as in charge of an important security detail for a merchant's shipment. And you arrived when your master told you he had nothing else to teach you or perhaps called all his disciples together and announced that you would succeed him as head of the school and business. But that system had some problems inherent even then. How do you know your level of skill as opposed to someone else. Well, it was pretty easy but rather harsh. You either challenged them or they challenged you, and the winner had more skill. Being involved in running an open tournament can be a good teacher. I have had practitioners come up and ask in what division they should register because they had no rank in their wu shu system. The way I handled that is to assess how long they had trained and doing a rough conversion for rank using minimum or average time in going through the ranks. This is crude, of course, and is not necessarily related to how proficient a person is in sparring. By that I mean, there is a very wide variation in how long is required to reach dan level. I personally know schools that work to a syllubus showing you can be promoted to cho dan in 18 months, and e dan in an additional 6 months, sam dan in another year. That is you could be promoted to third degree in 3 years. On the other hand if you were to look at the minimum time requirements on my syllabus( because that is the one I am most familiar with) you would see the minimum time for cho dan is 3.5 years( most take 4), for e dan is an additional 2 and for sam dan is another 3 (most take more) or a total of 8.5 years minimum to sam dan. Obviously, across the board, there is a vast difference in what someone knows in 1.5 years of training and 3.5 years of training. Again, that is 3 years verses 8.5 years for sam dan. In my opinion, that is part of the reason for the lack of respect that Japanese and Chinese styles have for Korean styles. I have run on long enough, but my point is, in either system, the bottom line is that there has to be someone exterior to the person judging his accomplishment according to some standard of ability, whether written or not. The key to quality and improved achievement is always striving for the best rather than making some minimum. This is true in all life. If you don't believe it look at the difference in the people coming out of our public education system. We need to strive for excellence, not passing a minimum. Out of the same schools come bright, inquisitive motivated people and people who are functionally illiterate. The difference is not in the educational opportunity, it is in the ability and desire of important people in each individual student's life to show them their potential and help them learn to set and achieve goals. We as martial arts instructors have the same responsibility. The only difference is we should have the knowledge to teach our students how to succeed much faster. I will give you an example that I know a lot of my friends also use. You used the term minimum requirements for a given rank and that is accurate. My focus is not on minimum requirements, but on what you must know and execute well. Another thing I do is I tell my students when they are ready to test. Yes, it limits the amount of income from testing fees, but my students learn quickly that my standard is not just being able to do something, but to do it well. I also require a student to make an average of at least 75 percent on each section of my test in order to pass. What does that mean? Well, lots of things. Sometimes a year or more between gup tests for some advanced students. It certainly means that my students do very well in tournament competition whether open or Association. It means that my students are frequently recognized by senior masters and my Grandmaster for their accomplishments. It means that I and my school have a good reputation in small city. But most of all, this all goes to reinforce in each student's mind the importance of what I teach them about setting goals and expecting their best from themselves and becoming leaders. Sorry for the length, but that's my 25 cents worth. Danny Dunn danny.dunn@redstone.army.mil ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:13:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: the_dojang: Ms. Kamienski's questions on achievement and rank > and 3.5 years of training. Again, that is 3 years verses 8.5 years for sam > dan. In my opinion, that is part of the reason for the lack of respect that > Japanese and Chinese styles have for Korean styles. But... The long length to blackbelt is mostly a western thing. If you go to Japan or Korea (not sure about China given the government there) and study martial arts you progress very quickly. True, they don't do 45 min classes, three times a week like we do. But one often reaches 1st Dan in a year (+ or -), whether in Korea, Japan, or Okinawa. The west has added a certain amount of mystique to being a "Black Belt" that doesn't exist in the east and we seem to like to prolong the time it takes to obtain a 1st Dan. Perhaps for $$ reasons... Yes, it took me over 3 years to receive my first 1st Dan, but should it have? Maybe. Maybe not. But should we in the west be making more of a Black Belt than is made in the east. Again, maybe. Maybe not... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Neal Leddy" Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 18:30:07 -0000 Subject: the_dojang: The TAGB--->The Answers Mr David Oliver, is listed in their Handbook as being a 6th dan, and the Chairman......... Having transferred from A TAGB school (Northern Ireland), to an ITF school (INTA, Dublin) are quite marked, the most significant is the use of Hip twist (TAGB), and Sine Wave (NITA) motion to generate power etc.... The TAGB was formed in August 1983, as far as I'm aware from previously being affiliated with IT,.... Tae Kwon-do International came into being in November 1993. ------------------------------ From: "Dale G. Gutt" Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:29:30 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: One-step Sparring... > In many arts, one step sparring techniques embody the essence of > self-defense in their art. How many people out there feel that > their school's one steps have good street defense, defend against > realistic attacks (for example vs. a hook puch), and can be performed > by most people effectively? Well our Federation does not have set one-step techniques as others do. Therefore, it is left up to the individual instructors to create them for their school. I believe that the purpose of the one-steps is to teach distance and timing. Getting comfortable with how long your arms and legs are, before you get into sparring. One-step is controlled sparring and can be used to teach correct techniques and the use in a safer format than free sparring. With that in mind, I and my other instructors created 20 one-steps against various attacks, such as straight punches, hook punches, double punches, kicks, etc. It is used to get the student comfortable when facing different type of attacks. They are also asked to perform them from the left side and right side, to prevent them from only using the "good hand/foot". They are taught at 5 per belt color. When they prepare to test for 1st Dan (and above) they are asked to make up their own. The previous 20 gives them fuel to create their own. I see self-defense techniques, those that involve grabs, throws, etc, as a separate set of techniques from one-steps. They have their purpose as well and can also be done from one-step, two-step, three-steps, etc. So in all, I guess you could say that we do and do not embody the self-defense aspect in our one-step sparring techniques. Tang Soo, Dale. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:39:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: 3 steps On the topic of 1 step sparring, now about 3 step sparring? That was typically where folks started before attempting 1 step sparring, but I'm seeing less and less of it these days. The Grandmaster I'm affiliated with is thinking of starting to employ it again given its 'traditional' nature. Others? Does anyone know? Does Japanese Karate-do have 3-step and 1-step sparring exercises? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Piotr Bernat Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 21:51:28 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: Re: even more TAGB > IIRC, the TAGB was a group of black belts (I think the head guy was > 7th Dan) who broke away from the ITF - don't know the date, I'd > presume mid or late 80's at the earliest, based on what little I know > about how they do the forms. It was in 1983 after the English Taekwondo Championships organised by the UKTA, ITF`s governing body in the U.K. at that time. > I may be wrong about this, but IIRC Dave Oliver was an ITF 7th Dan > when they split off... anybody know for sure? Dave Oliver was a 4th Dan at the time. The TAGB became involved with GM Hee Il Cho and D. Oliver became a 5th Dan under him. He was then promoted to 6th Dan by the Taekwon-Do International, the group he is the president of. The TAGB is one of the biggest, if not the biggest TKD group in the U.K. Regards - -- Piotr Bernat dantaekwondo@lublin.home.pl http://www.taekwondo.prv.pl ------------------------------ From: Piotr Bernat Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 21:54:58 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Master Pyo > According to Grandmaster Yang (8th DAN) and > Grandmaster Pyo (6th DAN) it is not the TKD`s aim in a fight > "cutting the opponents head off from his body". Guten Tag Axl, it`s nice to see somebody else who knows Master Pyo here... I think he is one of the greatest TKD instructors in Europe. Who is Grandmaster Yang you speak of? And if you visit our site, you will see couple of Master Pyo`s pictures... Regards - -- Piotr Bernat dantaekwondo@lublin.home.pl http://www.taekwondo.prv.pl ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 13:30:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #604 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com ===================================================================== To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com in pub/the_dojang/digests. 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