From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #605 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thur, 16 Dec 1999 Vol 06 : Num 605 In this issue: the_dojang: Significance of black belt the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #604 the_dojang: 3 Step Sparring Re: the_dojang: 3 Step Sparring the_dojang: Re: 3 steps the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #588 the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~725 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 16:35:53 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Significance of black belt Ray wrote "But... The long length to black belt is mostly a western thing. If you go to Japan or Korea (not sure about China given the government there) and study martial arts you progress very quickly. True, they don't do 45 min classes, three times a week like we do. But one often reaches 1st Dan in a year (+ or - -), whether in Korea, Japan, or Okinawa." Yeah Ray you are right. I think it is more accurately related to hours spent training in the dojang rather than just month involved. Ray wrote; "The west has added a certain amount of mystique to being a "Black Belt" that doesn't exist in the east and we seem to like to prolong the time it takes to obtain a 1st Dan. Perhaps for $$ reasons... Yes, it took me over 3 years to receive my first 1st Dan, but should it have? Maybe. Maybe not. But should we in the west be making more of a Black Belt than is made in the east. Again, maybe. Maybe not..." Probably not Ray. I learned that it meant you could be considered a student ready to learn at cho dan, or "You were finally worth teaching" as one of my teachers put it. I didn't mean to get into the bb mystic thing. Most of the guys I hang with and train with don't really give it a lot of thought, unless of course a high ranking master happens to be there. Then of course we have to remember whose belt is blacker and whose number is lower for lineup. The point I wanted to make is that excellence can and should be fostered. Danny Dunn danny.dunn@redstone.army.mil ------------------------------ From: Ben Blish Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 17:28:17 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #604 Ms. Kamienski posted: > I think that above all else, personal achievement is the most important > aspect of practicing martial arts and that rank should be based on an > individual's own improvement and not on a comparison of others at that rank. I completely disagree with your position. My approach is that for student's *own* satisfaction, personal achievement is a fine standard, and in fact, the one that should matter to you the most. And an instructor has a responsibility to let the student know that progress is being made in the context of that student's abilities in order to enhance that student's awareness of personal achievement. For ranking, however, achievement to a metric is what matters. What those metrics are may vary; for instance, I give a student a great deal of credit for scholastic achievement - learning details that aren't physical, for instance. I believe that it is important and useful to know as much as possible about the physics of the art, comparative things about similar (and not so similar) arts, and so on. I also provide credit for the obvious; student A can do technique X to a skill level I demand. While my metrics vary from those of other schools, they do *not* vary for those I instruct. I am not at all in favor of the touchy-feely approach where the tendency is to say something of the order "You've done a 80% towards what I think you are capable of (typical student has managed to do sidekicks, say), and so you get rank Z, just like Natural Athlete Student over there, who is now at 80% of my perception of her capacity, having done a 5 foot high jumping split kick." I think it's very important to differentiate between personal accomplishment, which confers personal satisfaction and growth, and which is (or should be) the thing of most value to the individual, and awarded rank, which is something that confers responsibility and standing, things of completely different natures which are of the most value to the development of the organization in the long term, as opposed to the individual's feelings of accomplishment. Ben ------------------------------ From: IMATC@aol.com Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 19:53:46 EST Subject: the_dojang: 3 Step Sparring I have discussed the 1 Step/3 Step sparring with some other intructors and there seems to be some differences in the meaning. In the one step that I am reffering to there is "one" counter technique. So if there is a punch and we defend with a side step, block and counter punch, there counter punch alone is the one step. As opposed to a parry, grab, punch...then takedown and finish. This being a 3 step technique as taught to me. Does anyone else have differing methods taught to them? ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 17:21:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: the_dojang: 3 Step Sparring > I have discussed the 1 Step/3 Step sparring with some other intructors and > there seems to be some differences in the meaning. In the one step that I am > reffering to there is "one" counter technique. So if there is a punch and > we defend with a side step, block and counter punch, there counter punch > alone is the one step. As opposed to a parry, grab, punch...then takedown > and finish. This being a 3 step technique as taught to me. Does anyone else > have differing methods taught to them? In 1 step sparring there is one attack. In 3 step sparring there are three attacks with the counter in question only being employed on the final attack. e.g. 1 step: I step forward and attack with a punch, you step back from the punch and side kick. 3 step: I step forward and attack w/a punch, you step back and block, I step forward and attack w/another punch, you step back and block, I step forward and attack w/another punch (the 3rd punch), you step back from the punch and side kick. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: d g Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 21:06:46 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Re: 3 steps > From: Ray Terry > Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:39:09 -0800 (PST) > Subject: the_dojang: 3 steps > > On the topic of 1 step sparring, now about 3 step sparring? That was > typically where folks started before attempting 1 step sparring, but I'm > seeing less and less of it these days. The Grandmaster I'm affiliated with > is thinking of starting to employ it again given its 'traditional' nature. > > Others? > > We do one-step sparring as our first that we learn. The main purpose is to learn to focus, react to a single punch and control. The punch at 10th gup is to be twelve inches away. As you go up in gups your punch gets closer. At red, just barely touching. When we reach yellow belt we go to three steps. Green belt, two steps. Blue, American free sparring. Donna ------------------------------ From: Andrew Pratt Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 11:45:07 +0900 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #588 Dear Anthony, First, grats to Clare on receiving her black belt. I'm going to be extra cautious and polite next time I visit... :-) A belated reply to your training question (extremely busy this week). Another poster has already made some excellent points. (But I have accidentally deleted that post so can not put his name up in lights :-(. > It seems the more I learn and the harder I practice, the more difficult it > becomes to chose what to focus on in a given training session. Do I work on > timing and if so, timing of what skills in particular? Do I work on > endurance and if so, what areas will I target for punishment today? > Do I study forms, which forms? It used to be so easy to chose when I knew > nothing! ;} > Indeed. I think it is beneficial to focus on one point at a time. To some extent though, 'choosing' is not the right approach. During practise it may become apparent what facet is lacking and needs improving. Now that you are not training every day I would suggest that you leave endurance training for outside the dojang. One of my Aikido tutors used to specifically say that if we wanted to do that sort of work, we can go down the gym and train. Time in the dojo is limited and he wanted to utilize as much as possible for Aikido training. You may also find endurance training outside the dojo less 'pressured.' Forms are always difficult to string together. You can do them in order, in reverse order, even numbers, and odd. And then what? Perhaps then you can do forms which emphasize particular cuts. This might prove useful if there is a cut which you are having problems with. You can practise the patterns that cut appears in and see if it is correct in any of the patterns. If you do it correctly in the pattern you might give a clue as to where the problem, outside the pattern or in a different pattern, is. > So, now I find myself trying to play catch up as I go through the week. My > instructors have a good system for drilling everything but I'm one of those > people who needs more practice time and since I moved, I no longer have the > space to practice on my own. I think everyone feels like that. You just have to accept that different people learn at different paces. It very hard to 'catch up' with anyone who trains longer (or has trained longer) than you. Just try and take what you are taught and turn it into your 'own style' as it were. I mean so that everything flows naturally from the way you are built and move. It is even more frustrating for me. When I started at the Seoul Aikido club, everyone was a white belt. It was obvious that I was 'better' than the local students in many areas because I had been training longer. Now, three years latter, many of these same students have black belts and confidently teach the class and freely point out my mistakes. How come they have black belts but not me? Should I feel jealous and disappointed? No, not really. (OK I do feel a little like that :-). They are seeing things that I *am* doing wrong and correcting them so that I become a better martial art. I am happy moving at my own pace because I am (slowly) improving and slowly moving towards the goals that I seek. I suppose what I am saying is that it is pointless comparing your progress with others because you are not them, not physically, not mentally. Why try and be other than yourself? Focusing on your own problems is good, focusing on why you are not 'doing as well as someone else' is not so useful. > > All of this brings me to my questions. Do any of you find that some skills > are harder to maintain than others? For example do certain techiniques fade > from memory while others stay sharp? Do you lose the basics but not the > advanced skills, vice versa or a mix? Is there one skill that even with > drilling every day you just can't keep sharp? > Does anyone know why? Certainly. I hate doing hip throws. Just can't seem to get my hip in the right place. I also find that my foot always seems to be pointing the wrong way when I do a front kick with my left foot. Yes, many techniques do fade away. I can hardly remember how I used to do Aikido in the UK now. A real pity that. My tori-funi ('rowing boat') exercise feels completely wrong at the moment. So, loads of problems. But, in some ways, to worry overly about this is an illusion. Combinations are fun, but are you really going to use them. If in simulated combat, you find yourself only using 2-3 cuts or combinations and you find they work 80% of the time, doesn't that tell you something about how a real fight will go and what techniques really work? Don't fight the logic. If you only those techniques come out naturally, isn't it better to practise and improve them than (ahem) waste time trying to drum in techniques you are patently not using in real situations? As I mentioned before, we all learn things differently and finding out what works for you is part of learning the ma. Kanetsuka-sensei has done something similar and concentrated 20 odd years on developing techniques from one basic principle from Aikido. His teaching is very narrow, but within it's limits, very powerful. It works for him (I have some videos at home, you can see them next time you visit if you wish). Another instructor of mine says that he has discarded 90% of what he has learned and now only teaches, say, half a dozen basic techniques. This is someone very experienced in fighting. He has spent a long time in Wushu before moving to Aikido. He has also done a lot of what I would call prize fighting but what most people might call kick-boxing competitions. So I trust that he is teaching what he feels would really work. Even the Korean Aikido instructor, who is also multi-dan TKD and HKD and who also learned Thai boxing and at one point was the Korean champion in his weight, is slowly developing a set of themes to his instruction. The previously mentioned arts aren't included in class, but there is a feeling that we are being taught counters to many of the techniques found in those arts. So to try and include this long post. It is a nice idea to try and learn 'everything' but you will find that the goal posts will move further away, particularly if you train with different instructors (let alone 'masters'). This is because each person comes from a different background and has seen something different in the art and developed what works for them. IMHO is to go with the flow. Identify what works for you and develop that. That will make the art 'your own' and one day people will come to you and say, 'you are doing things differently and we like it and want to learn from you' (or not :-) Don't worry if on any one particular day things don't seem to be going quite right. That is life. As the other poster said, try to do your best and say, 'hey I was shit but at least I tried my best and sweated a ton.' On a lighter note. You also asked about weapons training. How about a section on chain saws? I have found that one of the cable channels regularly shows dodgy HK films in the late-evening slot. The other night the film climaxed with a 15 minute chain saw fight. Absolutely amazing! Pepper....and Salt in the AWSJ had as it's skit a 'master' explaining to a beginner, 'The first step in your journey to spiritual serenity is to try to kick your opponent in the face' Yours, Andrew ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 20:05:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #605 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com ===================================================================== To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.