From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #609 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Mon, 20 Dec 1999 Vol 06 : Num 609 In this issue: the_dojang: black versus gup training importance the_dojang: Confusing Yu Gup Ja the_dojang: Re: Regarding black belt being a beginning [none] the_dojang: Dropout at cho dan bo the_dojang: Black Belt as Beginning the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #608 the_dojang: Re: Regarding black belt being a beginning the_dojang: CHOI the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~725 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 08:49:05 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: black versus gup training importance Melinda wrote: i disagree. a student is learning from day one. i would not say that gup rank training is useless. that certainly invalidates the efforts of many individuals. the training begins from day one in the dojang...and continues until the day you die. rank has nothing to do with it. Melinda, You weren't responding to my post directly, but I said essentially the same thing. I don't mean to imply that training to black belt level is not important. It is important, since it is the time when one learns the basic foundation of an art. However, after dan level is attained, I believe that you really begin to learn the essence of an art. In way of explanation, go to a mixed gup class and just watch. Then go to a dan class and watch. The difference in focus, concentration and spirit should be readily evident. Another way of looking at it might be to compare the number of people who begin training with the number who continue to train after getting their first black belt. I've heard some say 1 in 1000, though I personally think it might be more like 1 in 100 to 1 in 250. This might be the reason for the difference. Danny Dunn danny.dunn@redstone.army.mil ------------------------------ From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 09:18:09 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Confusing Yu Gup Ja Daniel wrote: Could someone please explain to me how real learning and training doesn't begin in taekwondo until one reaches black belt level status? It doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense. What is one doing during those first two to three years of practice that dosen't qualify as real learning and training? Are the basics I am learning now as a lowly green belt of no real value? This whole train of thought really confuses me. Daniel: Hey, that's a good name. I like it! Hang in there with your training. I don't think anyone wants to confuse you. No question about it, no matter what your style, you must start by learning those basics. They are important. What we are discussing will all come later for you. The basics is what every artist must learn first. You begin learning a whole new cycle beyond black belt and a lot of people can't successfully make that transition. For now, stick with the training, and never ever neglect training in the basics. Focus on trying to make each technique perfect each time you do it and good luck. Danny Dunn danny.dunn@redstone.army.mil ------------------------------ From: dbuehrer@carl.org Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 08:42:15 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Regarding black belt being a beginning >From: d.d.parker@juno.com >Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 18:18:33 -0700 >Subject: the_dojang: Re: Regarding black belt being a beginning. > >Could someone please explain to me how real learning and training doesn't >begin in taekwondo until one reaches black belt level status? It doesn't >seem to make a whole lot of sense. What is one doing during those first >two to three years of practice that dosen't qualify as real learning and >training? Are the basics I am learning now as a lowly green belt of no >real value? This whole train of thought really confuses me. As I understand it, what you're doing now is viewed as laying the foundation. You are indeed learning, but you are learning the basics. It's kind of like the process of going to school as a kid, through graduation from high school. I learned the basics of math, reading, grammar, history, literature, etc. But after I graduated I discovered that I a *lot* of learning left to do ;) During the last 16 years I've been building on the foundation laid by grade school. From what other black belts in class tell me I gather that the same philosophy is applied to martial arts. The journey from 10 Gup to 1st Dan is the laying of the foundation of your chosen martial art. After you reach 1st Dan what you build on that foundation becomes your responsibility, with the help of other instructors and masters of course :) And I believe that where the instructor leaves off, the path of the martial art begins to teach you. All IMHO. To Life, - -David Buehrer 6th Gup, Hapkido - -- "The light is reached not by turning back from the darkness, but by going through it." ------------------------------ From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 09:55:00 -0600 Subject: [none] Cliff wrote: The bottomline is why are you training? Is it a bad reason to train because you want to achieve your black belt? I don't think so. In introductory interview with my instructor almost 7 years ago, he asked me why I wanted to train and my answer was to complete my black belt. Cliff, I agree. It has been my experience that the vast majority of students come to the first class because they want to earn a BB. I agree it's a good thing. Cliff wrote: ALONG THE WAY I learned a lot more about the martial aspect of the arts. Additionally, I happen to love forms, one-steps, and self-defense. I'm not fond of sparring, mostly because I've never felt like I was all that great at it. Should that disqualify a person? I believe you learn more of the martial aspects of the arts through the forms, especially if you understand more than just the moves. Cliff, I love it all, especially free sparring and hyungs. But everyone has things they like and those they don't. At least I have never met anyone that would say they didn't have favorite areas and not so favorite ones. The question is do you still practice everything, even the things you are not particularly fond of? Cliff wrote: If I just practice martial arts because I want to learn how to fight, I'd question that path. Cliff, that's the second largest reason that students come into the dojang the first time. By the time they reach the upper gup levels, that should not be a problem any longer. They should have either changed their perspective due to the instruction focus or have left training. Cliff wrote: Finally, not all of us are physically capable of doing many of the "metrics" or "standards" other writers are mentioning. I'm 41 with advanced arthritis in my hips. You won't find me doing some of the more flamboyant jumping techniques those young, healthy, 20-30 year olds can do. Does that make me less of a MARTIAL artist? I think not. Cliff, I agree that there are physical limitations that come with age and injury. My own focus on training has changed with injuries as well as age. Being a black belt means being a serious student, not necessarily that you will be able to do everything equally well. It also means that you should have the discipline to train even on those things that aren't easy, and I'll bet from reading your post you do. In my opinion, black belts, that is serious students, have a responsibility to learn the art and pass it on. Doesn't mean you can do 10 foot double action jump kicks, but that you can teach someone else how. My 2 cents. Tang Soo!!! Danny Dunn danny.dunn@redstone.army.mil ------------------------------ From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 10:10:21 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Dropout at cho dan bo Scott wrote about the high dropout rate at cho dan bo, the black belt prep phase. That seems to be a problem everywhere. I think maybe it is because people have a hard time shifting from that goal of BB and the frequent gup tests to a more longterm goal of overall improvement. As a gup the student learns new things all the time. But once you get to cho dan bo or black belt, temp, or whatever, all of a sudden you are told to go work on perfecting what you already know. No new things all the time. No classes focussed on teaching you what you need to know. Just go get better. I think maybe we need to work harder to shift the emphasis from you need to know this and this and this for you next test, to instilling the value of commitment of striving for perfection. Any comments or ideas on how to do this more successfully? Tang Soo too Scott! Danny Dunn danny.dunn@redstone.army.mil ------------------------------ From: "Aaron Harmon" Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 08:41:00 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Black Belt as Beginning > Subject: the_dojang: Re: Regarding black belt being a beginning. > > Could someone please explain to me how real learning and training doesn't > begin in taekwondo until one reaches black belt level status? It doesn't > seem to make a whole lot of sense. What is one doing during those first > two to three years of practice that dosen't qualify as real learning and > training? Are the basics I am learning now as a lowly green belt of no > real value? This whole train of thought really confuses me. > > Cheers, Daniel Think of getting your Black Belt as graduating high school. What you have learned is not useless, but serves as the foundation for the higher teachings at a university. I do not think that anyone said that color belt training is not 'real learning', high school is real learning, but a high school diploma is only worth so much, a college degree is worth much more and you do not start to really learn cool stuff intensely until college. I think when someone said 'real learning' they meant it in the way someone might say of a ferrari 'now that's a REAL car!' although a Honda is also a real car, it is a matter of scale. Color belt training is real training, but black belt training, now that's REAL training! Aaron Harmon There is pleasure And there is bliss. Forgo the first to possess the second. -Dhammapada ------------------------------ From: "Chuck Sears" Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 11:39:06 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #608 > From: d.d.parker@juno.com > Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 18:18:33 -0700 > Subject: the_dojang: Re: Regarding black belt being a beginning. > > Could someone please explain to me how real learning and training doesn't > begin in taekwondo until one reaches black belt level status? It doesn't > seem to make a whole lot of sense. What is one doing during those first > two to three years of practice that dosen't qualify as real learning and > training? Are the basics I am learning now as a lowly green belt of no > real value? This whole train of thought really confuses me. Oh, you're learning, there's no doubt there. But what you are learning is the basics. You are developing muscle memory, reactions, memorizing forms and one-steps, etc. You are learning the foundation of your chosen Martial Art. When you make Black Belt, you start to learn the "why" of your art instead of just the "what." I like to think of the journey through the colored belts (in whatever your style of Martial Arts may be) as being similar to one's journey through elementary, jr. high and high school. At First Degree Black Belt, you take what you have learned (your high school diploma) and "go to college" with it. When you graduate with your Bachelor's (4th Degree), you have a thorough understanding of the whys and wherefores. If you continue to train, you get your Master's (6th Degree). And if you continue to train and earn, you get your Doctorate (7th - 9th Degrees). Of course, one of the major differences is that a college Doctorate can be earned in about 8 years. Our Martial Arts "Doctorate" takes a lifetime of continual study in the School of Hard Knocks . The whole crux of the matter is that you really can't learn the fine points until you have learned the basics, that's all. ------------------------------ From: d g Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 12:37:32 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Regarding black belt being a beginning > From: d.d.parker@juno.com > Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 18:18:33 -0700 > Subject: the_dojang: Re: Regarding black belt being a beginning. > > Could someone please explain to me how real learning and training doesn't > begin in taekwondo until one reaches black belt level status? It doesn't > seem to make a whole lot of sense. What is one doing during those first > two to three years of practice that dosen't qualify as real learning and > training? Are the basics I am learning now as a lowly green belt of no > real value? This whole train of thought really confuses me. > Daniel, it means beginning all over again. We have climb the first mountain and like the bear when he gets to the top of the mountain, what does he see? Another mountain to climb. We start again at the foothills. Everything was real to me when I tied on that white belt for the first time. I knew what lyed ahead and I knew it was not going to be easy. It still isn't. If fact, it gets harder. There are times when I get angry and discouraged and want to quit. I keep going, I have to. I am too curious to see what's on the other side. Even my GM has his own mountain to climb and he will be climbing until his last day on this earth. Oh, it is real. Right from the beginning it is real. Donna ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 09:58:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: CHOI Has anyone read the interview with Gen. Choi in the Jan '00 issue of TKD Times? Any reaction to his comments? Specifically to the part about how he chose Taekwondo over his own son? Several of his comments didn't set well with me, but that one hit the hardest. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 09:50:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #609 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com ===================================================================== To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com in pub/the_dojang/digests. 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