From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #610 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Mon, 20 Dec 1999 Vol 06 : Num 610 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: Regarding black belt being a beginning. [none] the_dojang: Gup Training vs Dan Training the_dojang: Metrics the_dojang: Gup vs Dan Training the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #609 the_dojang: HoHoHo the_dojang: Black Belt as only Goal the_dojang: RE: BB significance the_dojang: Re: Regarding black belt being a beginning. the_dojang: Re: Regarding the General Cho article the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~725 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mark M. Smith" Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 12:55:05 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Regarding black belt being a beginning. Daniel, >Could someone please explain to me how real learning and training doesn't >begin in taekwondo until one reaches black belt level status? It doesn't >seem to make a whole lot of sense. What is one doing during those first >two to three years of practice that dosen't qualify as real learning and >training? Are the basics I am learning now as a lowly green belt of no >real value? This whole train of thought really confuses me. An analogy I have used is that of a carpenter. A good carpenter is a master of his tools. He can drive a nail with only 3 blows of his hammer. He can saw a board without splitting or splintering, he knows how to use his level to level a beam. These are important and vital skills for a carpenter and the carpenter spent years learnign them, but they are not the skills that make a Master carpenter. A Master carpenter knows how to use his skills, hammering, sawing, leveling, etc to build a house. Without the skills with his tools he could not build the house, but the skills needed to build the house are far above and beyond hammering and sawing. So it is in the martial arts. First, you learn how to kick, punch, block, stand, and move. When you have mastered these basic but necessary skills (ie at Black Belt) you are ready to begin learning how to use them to build your own "house of martial art." >how real learning and training doesn't begin in taekwondo until one reaches black belt level status? How can you teach someone how to build a house if they can not hammer. So how can you teach someone how to effortlessly counter using your opponent's energy against them, when you cannot yet kick with ease. I frequently give this explanation when someone asks what is meant by an art being 90% mental. How can this be is we seem to spend all our time practicing physical techniques? The answer is that the goal of practicing physical techniques to to make them so much a part of yourself that you can execute without thinking about them. Then during sparring or combat you can think about how to gain the advantage on your opponent and not about chambering your leg during your back kick. Mastery of physical technique is needed before you can progress to learning how to use your technique effectively. This use of technique is the real heart of a martial art. > Are the basics I am learning now as a lowly green belt of no real value? They are crucial. Just understand they are the foundation upon which you will build your house. The foundation is vital because it supports the structure which provides the real utility of both a house and a martial art. Mark M. Smith Merrimack, NH email: msmith@p2software.com ------------------------------ From: dbuehrer@carl.org Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 11:17:15 -0700 Subject: [none] >From: "Chuck Sears" > >I like to think of the journey through the colored belts (in whatever your >style of Martial Arts may be) as being similar to one's journey through >elementary, jr. high and high school. At First Degree Black Belt, you take >what you have learned (your high school diploma) and "go to college" with >it. When you graduate with your Bachelor's (4th Degree), you have a >thorough understanding of the whys and wherefores. If you continue to >train, you get your Master's (6th Degree). And if you continue to train and >earn, you get your Doctorate (7th - 9th Degrees). I to consider the path to 1st Dan as being similar to the path to a high school diploma. However, I equate the 3rd Dan with a Bachelor's degree, 4th Dan with a Master's, and 5th Dan with a Doctorate. I equate 6th Dan with Professor, 7th Dan with Dean of the Department, 8th Dan with Dean of the School, and 9th Dan with the Retired Professor who spends his free time learning how to paint :) To Life, - -David Buehrer 6th Gup, Hapkido - -- "The more I learn, the more I realize I don't know and the more I want to learn." - -Einstein ------------------------------ From: "tink" Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 12:28:33 -0000 Subject: the_dojang: Gup Training vs Dan Training I have read much confusion over the statement "The real training begins at Black Belt". I hope the following will help offer an explanation; It is an excerpt from my philosophy paper for my 4th Dan: I use the following analogy to explain progression through the ranks: From White Belt through Brown Belt is the same as Kindergarten through High School. It is all basic preparation. A Temporary Black Belt is the same as college. It is learning to apply the basics to more advanced implementation. From 1st Dan on is life. It is applying what you know into real application and passing on what you have learned. All training is important. My thanks to Mr. Dunn for his fine commentary and explanations. ------------------------------ From: "tink" Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 12:48:28 -0000 Subject: the_dojang: Metrics Not to cast aspersions on anyone or their methods, but I (personally) do not agree with the use of metrics as a measurement tool. I don't even like the term (I hear it everyday in engineering). When I hear metrics I see a graph or chart with a bunch of blocks or dates to be checked off. If each block isn't checked off, you fail because you didn't meet the set requirements established by whatever authority. I don't expect every student to meet every requirement by test time, but I do expect them to have achieved a certain level of proficiency for their age, rank, and personal abilities. I also expect them to have put forth the effort to improve and try to achieve a higher level of expectations and, more importantly, to be dedicated to the art and to personal improvement. The One and Only... Tink ------------------------------ From: "tink" Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 12:49:33 -0000 Subject: the_dojang: Gup vs Dan Training I have read much confusion over the statement "The real training begins at Black Belt". I hope the following will help offer an explanation; It is an excerpt from my philosophy paper for my 4th Dan: I use the following analogy to explain progression through the ranks: From White Belt through Brown Belt is the same as Kindergarten through High School. It is all basic preparation. A Temporary Black Belt is the same as college. It is learning to apply the basics to more advanced implementation. From 1st Dan on is life. It is applying what you know into real application and passing on what you have learned. All training is important. My thanks to Mr. Dunn for his fine commentary and explanations. The One and Only... Tink ------------------------------ From: "Vaught, Clifford (CLF N6Y2K8)" Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:59:25 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #609 Wow - so many great replies! Thanks to Dave Dunn on so many great points. Yes, I continue to work at sparring - I guess it's not that I'm not fond of it as much as I'm frustrated by the slow progress coupled with physical limitations. I would say it's been more fun the last 2 years since we do it more. It has been a humbling experience to all of us in the 40+ crowd to have 2 visiting Dans, both 23, come in and be literally an arm's distance away and still be able to crescent/ax kick us! Good for them. We've been taught all along that Cho Dan means "beginning expert" - which is to say, now the real learning starts. Due to the nature of our syllabus in the Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan, I can't say that there's no new things, just make what you know better. One reason Grandmaster Hwang Kee elected to use midnight blue vice black for the Dan level is because black symbolizes a completeness, i.e., you've learned it all. He felt that one is always learning, hence the midnight blue of the Tang Soo Do arts (quick aside - my instructor trained with Chuck Norris in the early days and he told us that the reason Chuck used black was because in the '60's, one couldn't find the midnight blue belts very easily, if at all, over here). I am somewhat confused by the percentage of Dans who drop out of training after achieving Cho Dan ranking. To work so long for the goal and give it up doesn't make sense to me, and in a way, that person didn't understand an important facet of the martial arts - giving back. I believe the success we've had in our school can be attributed to the "family" atmosphere of the school and the Moo Duk Kwan and we've still had about 25% of our Dans stop training. Most of them made their Dans in the teen years, so perhaps there's a maturity issue. I have seen adults get their belts and we'll never see them again. Any thoughts? Danny is right again about the numbers of those who start and those who see it through to Dan. I can only speak to Tang Soo Do, and then in generalities. Grandmaster Hwang Kee started the art in 1945. Since then he has promoted over 37,000 to the level of Cho Dan. Some of them have broken away and started large organizations as well. Grandmaster Jae Chul Shin's World TSD Assoc. is probably the next largest and I read recently that they've got some 9,000 Dans. What if all the other major TSD organizations, including Grandmaster Norris' Chun Kuk Do derivative of TSD, comprised another 10,000 Dans? In over 54 years you'd have on the order of 50,000 Dans - but how many hundreds of thousands actually began training? It's staggering to consider. I have no idea what the numbers could be for TKD but I imagine the ratio of those who start to those who achieve Cho Dan rank is about the same. And yes, I totally agree - it's from Cho Dan on that the spirit of the martial artist is developed - the "why", not just the "what" (thanks Chuck Sears). Soo Bahk!! Cliff Vaught ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 11:27:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: HoHoHo HoHoHo... Assuming no Y2K related issues, the lists will be up throughout the holidays. Ray Terry ------------------------------ From: jbennett@telebot.com Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 12:00:01 -800 Subject: the_dojang: Black Belt as only Goal The "Black Belt" is overemphasized both as a motivator and a goal. Using the "grade school" analogy that a BB is equivalent to a high school diploma.... What is the value of a high school diploma today? Some people would say... Zip. Nada. Nothing. Think of all the kids who graduate high school yet can't understand a common newspaper editorial or determine the amount of time it would take to drive 60 miles at 60mph. If a kid graduates but can't read or understand simple concepts, who cares if he "got his diploma"? I earn my coin as a professional educator. I meet such people every day. It's shameful. The diplomas those people earned are worthless. Most likely the only reason they hung around to the end of high school was to "get my diploma". It obviously wasn't to learn anything. Why do so many people stop training after they achieve their magical "black belt"? They drop out because their purpose wasn't to become a better martial artist, it was to "get a black belt". After they've gotten it, what's the point in continuing to train? They got what they came for. They're finished. Too many schools are selling black belts instead of selling martial arts training. Why do people train with handguns where there are no belts? Why do people train in boxing where there are no belts? Why do people practice raquetball where there are no belts? Why do people practice piano where there are no belts? .. because they want to become more proficient at activity they enjoy. What the heck is wrong with that??!?! If you removed the belt system, would your school survive? If not, I suggest that your focus is selling belts, and not training or self-improvement. "That's just my opinion. I could be wrong." John Bennett ------------------------------ From: "Atchinson, Kerry M" Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 14:12:39 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: BB significance > From: ChunjiDo@aol.com > Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 12:49:12 EST > Subject: the_dojang: Re: black belt significance > > In a message dated 12/17/99 11:59:57 AM Central Standard Time, > the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: > > << but not continuing to receive the Dan Rank makes the training useless > as > they have achieved nothing. You don't start to learn until you become a > Black Belt, then the training begins. >> > > > i disagree. a student is learning from day one. i would not say that gup > rank > training is useless. that certainly invalidates the efforts of many > individuals. the training begins from day one in the dojang...and > continues > until the day you die. rank has nothing to do with it. > > melinda > > As a friend & classmate of "Tink" (referenced above by melinda) I'll put in my 2 cents worth here. Perhaps "...makes the training useless..." is slightly overstated, but the notion that one really doesn't start to learn the art until BB seems reasonable to me. An analogy I like is that of the young student learning the alphabet. Knowledge is acquired, but a useful skill isn't achieved until words can formed, followed by sentences, etc. But then I'm still a Dan-Bo (temp BB), so maybe I haven't learned this yet. :) Kerry ------------------------------ From: TkdBPerry@aol.com Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 15:50:31 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Regarding black belt being a beginning. In a message dated 12/20/99 9:54:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, d.d.parker@juno.com (Cheers, Daniel) writes: > Could someone please explain to me how real learning and training doesn't > begin in taekwondo until one reaches black belt level status? It doesn't > seem to make a whole lot of sense. What is one doing during those first > two to three years of practice that dosen't qualify as real learning and > training? Are the basics I am learning now as a lowly green belt of no > real value? This whole train of thought really confuses me. > > Cheers, Daniel Dear Daniel: Yes, obviously the basics are important on your first day of blackbelt class you will again review all of your basics again. The difference is with all of the time sacrificed in blood, sweat, and tears now you can smoothly enter into your next phase of training. This hard training that brought you to blackbelt is a prerequisite to black belt seminars at your do jang, as well as other local, state, and national levels for specialized education. 1) Competitor 2) Trainer 3) Coach 4) Manager 5) Official Following these courses you go to the next level of instructor courses. All professions have similar levels. As a black belt the public realizes your achievement in your skills and your desire for further upgrading. Consequently, most professions respect your rank as a reflection of their own levels such as associates, bachelors, masters, and doctorate degrees. Bob Perry WTF 5th Dan WTF International Referee ------------------------------ From: d.d.parker@juno.com Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 09:58:32 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Regarding the General Cho article Ray, I read the article you are referring to in Taekwondo times. I found it to be interesting and a little bit disturbing. After reading the article, it seemed to me that General Cho has a large ego and is a little paranoid regarding supposed conspiracies against him. While I sincerely mean no disrespect to the General, he gives the impression in the interview (to me at least) that he alone is responsible for the development of Taekwondo and that none of the other Kwan's played as important a role in it's development as he did. This is a point which of course can be argued back and forth regarding who did what and when, and the significance of everything, but he did seem to take an awful lot of credit for himself and made very little mention of the contributions of others. Regarding my belief that the General is a little bit paranoid, I do not believe that people went around telling airport security officials that he "was the head of a terrorist organization which was trying to kill the Korean President". And even if they did, what justification would they have to believe such nonsense. General Cho is a public figure who hardly fits the profile of a terrorist. Also, how could the Korean government pressure the "owners of gymnasiums into denying" his organization the use of "their facilities for seminars". What does the owner of a gymnasium in the United States, Turkey or Denmark care what the Korean government says? Why would the Korean government really care about a weekend Taekwondo seminar? Next, if the Korean government really kidnapped his son in an effort to convince the General to return to Korea, I think that a lot of American tax dollars have been grossly misspent in supporting these leaders. For some reason though, I have a hard time believing this as well. But if they did, and the General truly chose "Taekwon-Do over my son", then I feel he deserves whatever hardships he has endured during his exile as I personally find his attitude reprehensible. I realize that General Cho comes from a different generation and culture than myself and that his mind set and view of the world are foreign to me and difficult to understand. And I also acknowledge that my assessment of him could be totally off-base and perhaps everything has happened just as he described it. If so, I apologize in advance for my ignorance. I did enjoy reading the article though, and found it to be very interesting. My 2 Cents, Daniel ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 12:59:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #610 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com ===================================================================== To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.