From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #611 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Tues, 21 Dec 1999 Vol 06 : Num 611 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #610 the_dojang: Choi the_dojang: Re: Regarding the General Cho article the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #608 the_dojang: Gup vs Black Belt Training the_dojang: Re: Black Belt the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~725 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Aaron Harmon" Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:52:36 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #610 Aaron Harmon There is pleasure And there is bliss. Forgo the first to possess the second. -Dhammapada > From: jbennett@telebot.com > Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 12:00:01 -800 > Subject: the_dojang: Black Belt as only Goal > > The "Black Belt" is overemphasized both as a motivator and a goal. > > Using the "grade school" analogy that a BB is equivalent to a high school diploma.... > > > What is the value of a high school diploma today? Some people would say... Zip. > Nada. Nothing. Well, yes the system of public education in the US is a joke (like most things that are run by the goverment, like the new regulation making it illegal to fire illegal immigrants and also illegal to employ them, what do you do, fire him and pay a $300,000 fine or continue to employ him and go to jail?), perhaps the comparison should have been 'what a high school diploma should be' instead of 'what a high school diploma actually is'... Or, why do we not insert 'a BB is like a bachelor's degree' instead of 'like a high school diploma', that would suggest the desire to continue one's education after achieving BB. > If you removed the belt system, would your school survive? If I had a school (I am just a poor illiterate black belt :) ) i would consider it, I do not think they are that important. People do need some sort of concrete method of tracking their own progress, but I can see how the whole belt thing can be out of hand, perhaps a linear method that does not have the black belt (which suggests an ending) would be better, say levels 1 through 20 where level 10 is the equivalent of a BB but does not seem to suggest that it is an end, but rather 'half way there'. Just another random thought. > "That's just my opinion. I could be wrong." > > John Bennett Mine too. Aaron Harmon ~~~The statements contained within this document are the opinions of Aaron Harmon only. They are not meant to suggest or imply that he is better, smarter, taller, more attractive, or more skilled than you, or smells better in an enclosed space than you. No flames intended or admitted.~~~ ------------------------------ From: HKDTodd@aol.com Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 17:16:34 EST Subject: the_dojang: Choi Some things did not set well with me either. Todd ------------------------------ From: Anders Torvill Bjorvand Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 23:31:43 +0100 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Regarding the General Cho article >d.d. parker wrote: This is a point which of >course can be argued back and forth regarding who did what and when, and >the significance of everything, but he did seem to take an awful lot of >credit for himself and made very little mention of the contributions of >others. If he mentioned anybody at all except for maybe a scarce remark to Nam, Tae Hi or possibly Han Cha Kyo, that's a MAJOR improvement from the "founder". He surely was one of the driving forces behind making TKD an official MA of Korea, and he certainly did a lot of work to collect and systemize the karate-offsprings in Korea at the time, but to claim that he developed a great deal of it would be a great exageration, I think. >d.d. parker wrote: Regarding my belief that the General is a little bit >paranoid, I do not >believe that people went around telling airport security officials that >he "was the head of a terrorist organization which was trying to kill the >Korean President". And even if they did, what justification would they >have to believe such nonsense. General Cho is a public figure who hardly >fits the profile of a terrorist. Remember that this was during the cold war and that the military, which Choi was / had been a part of played a major political factor - including military coups. >d.d. parker wrote: Also, how could the Korean government >pressure the "owners of gymnasiums into denying" his organization the use >of "their facilities for seminars". What does the owner of a gymnasium >in the United States, Turkey or Denmark care what the Korean government >says? If they had relatives back in Korea, unfortunately, they had to care a lot. Rumor has it that lots of the native-Korean US-residents joining the WTF in the seventies were bullied into it by the South Korean "CIA". This might be exaggerated, but remember that this was during the cold war and nothing really suprises me about the paranoia of that time. >d.d. parker wrote: Next, if the Korean government really kidnapped his son >in an effort to >convince the General to return to Korea, I think that a lot of American >tax dollars have been grossly misspent in supporting these leaders. His son, Jung Hwa, Choi, spent some years in jail for an alleged conspiracy to kill the president. When he got out of jail he immediately was promoted to 7th dan !! (maybe for some weird patriotism ??) >d.d. parker wrote: I realize that General Cho comes from a different >generation and culture >than myself and that his mind set and view of the world are foreign to me >and difficult to understand. Suffice it to say that being a GM of a martial art has very little to do with being a GM of anything else - including life itself. Sincerely, Anders Torvill Bjorvand ------------------------------ From: Tony Preston Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 16:58:31 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #608 |From: d.d.parker@juno.com |Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 18:18:33 -0700 |Subject: the_dojang: Re: Regarding black belt being a beginning. |Could someone please explain to me how real learning and training doesn't |begin in taekwondo until one reaches black belt level status? It doesn't |seem to make a whole lot of sense. What is one doing during those first |two to three years of practice that dosen't qualify as real learning and |training? Are the basics I am learning now as a lowly green belt of no |real value? This whole train of thought really confuses me. |Cheers, Daniel Ah... Daniel san... (sorry, but I had to...:) It is the idea that you learn those basics and have really not learned all that there is to learn. Many people look at the Black Belt as a goal to be earned, a peak of the mountain. What is really being said is that you have just reached the mountain slope, not the peak. I remember alot of things that I though about my training when I was a green belt... I know alot of those things were not quite right and I know better now to assume things since I know that in awhile, I will probably think the same thing again about myself... A particular belt is a temporary goal... Nothing more, nothing less. It is not wrong to train to reach that goal just so long as you know it is just one step in the right direction, not your final resting place. ------------------------------ From: "tink" Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 20:50:17 -0000 Subject: the_dojang: Gup vs Black Belt Training Please don't take statements out of context. No one has said that Gup training is useless or meaningless. The actual reference was to those that drop out after achieving their first Black Belt, whether that be a Temp or a 1st Dan. By dropping out, the training and years spent in learning the basics in preparation for Black Belt become wasted as they cannot be applied to advanced techniques and training to the persons ultimate proficiency. It DOES NOT mean that Gup training is useless. No training is useless if it leads to and is applied to further training and advancement. There have been some excellent responses and explanations of this by many of the Subscribers. They have provided meaning and understanding by means of analogies and I commend them for their expertise, insight, and understanding in this matter. Listen to what they say and how they say it in the entirety. Please don't take phrases and statements out of contest. There are many experienced martial artists contributing to this forum. There are also many good questions being asked: Questions that are important to the growth and education of the martial artist as a whole. This is a superb forum. Keep up the good work all! Special thanks to Ray Terry for providing such a forum where we can be free to air are opinions, thoughts, and ideas. Pil Seung The One and Only... Tink ------------------------------ From: "Jason Swanson" Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 22:47:02 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Black Belt This evening I had to inform one of my students that she did not pass her last testing, which was for her Temporary Black Belt. I have a small school, and this was the first time I have had to hold back one of the children. This particular girl is 11, and was very distraut about the whole situation. I told her prior to the actual class and promotion ceremony, and she left the room crying and did not return. I am not sure if she will return to my class or not. This is the price I must pay as the instructor to ensure that all of my students meet the minimum standards. The unfortunate thing is that she was able to do all of the things required of her prior to the testing, but was unable to come through at the actual testing. This will be a real test of her maturity and understanding of what it means to percevere. Just wanted to share my story on black belt testing requirements. Jason Swanson 3rd Dan Lincoln, NE ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 07:32:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #611 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com ===================================================================== To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.