From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #86 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Wed, 9 Feb 2000 Vol 07 : Num 086 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #84 the_dojang: US Open Results the_dojang: Great news! Someone finally found it! the_dojang: Re: Cross-training the_dojang: 9th Dans the_dojang: Re; TKD Broadcasts the_dojang: Fwd: FIGHTING IN THE STREETS - A REAL TEST... the_dojang: 9(th Dans and 10th Dans and that whole ball of wax the_dojang: Fwd: Re: Ancient European Unarmed Combat the_dojang: "Other requirements" for rank the_dojang: Martial Ways not Art? the_dojang: Fwd: Re: Rolling=good source for mats [none] ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~765 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry, CA Taekwondo, and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SunBiNim@aol.com Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 22:32:59 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #84 In a message dated 2/8/00 3:49:06 PM Central Standard Time, Todd Miller writes: << GM Lim, Hyun Soo one of only 2 true 9th dans in the world. >> Hmm.......someone better tell all the others that they don't exist! ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 20:16:24 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: US Open Results See http://www.ustu.org/pubs/pr2600.html for the results of the recent US Open TKD Championships. Ray Terry ------------------------------ From: "John Bennett" Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 22:45:12 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Great news! Someone finally found it! > From: Eumsohae@webtv.net (Steve Bledsoe) > Subject: the_dojang: KONG SHIN WON HAPKIDO > I am not trying to put down any other styles or arts.I myself, > have found one of the true Martial Ways not art Congratulations Steve! We should all be so fortunate! ------------------------------ From: STisorwall@aol.com Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 01:00:49 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Cross-training Sorry for the delayed reply..I originally sent this from an account that I rarely use that is not recognized as a member of the digest... - --------Begin original text--------- Hi Jon: Grant received his master's certification through Cabales Serrada Escrima, which was originally founded by Angelo Cabales about 35 years ago. GM Vincent Cabales is now the head of the organization, which is located in Stockton, CA. I certainly agree with you about the well-rounded perspective you develop. Escrima has really opened my mind to hand techniques, especially traps and locks, that I had never considered before. I particularly like the way you learn to position yourself off-axis (45 degrees) from your opponents line of attack. I'm naturally about 60/40 ambidexterous, so the double-cane sinawali style that Mr Tabuchi teaches comes easily enough..although with the combinations of simultaneous attacking and defense, along with the footwork and positioning involved, I often feel like I'm patting my head, rubbing my stomach and chanting tongue-twister limericks all at once! - -JW 5th gup TKD..rank novice escrima & jujitsu >We do something similar in my school. A blend of Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido >and Inayan Eskrima. I find that it really gives you a well balanced idea of self >defense. Who did Grant get his master's degree from in Serrada? > >Guro Jon Ward >Inayan Eskrima ------------------------------ From: "Tomlinson, Michael E." Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 08:01:48 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: 9th Dans After recently working out with Doju Ji Han Jae, the one thing that I can tell you is that he will never ever say that his way is the only way,, he always states during the training that he will give you his techniques and then he says "make your own technique", he actually expects you to create with your Hapkido,, I find this style of training to be much more analagous to the brotherhood of Hapkido than the other mode of thought,, which is "I am the only 9th Dan or my way is the only way, or I am the only true successor to Choi Yong Sool," I often wonder about people in any proffesion who make these claims, you cannot see the whole world when you are looking at it with a pair of blinders on. Michael Tomlinson ------------------------------ From: "John Oss" Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 09:06:37 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re; TKD Broadcasts Dear Silke, That's great news. I for one was disappointed with the coverage of the Pan Am games as reference to TKD was almost non-existant (at least here in Canada). There may have been a mention in passing but no true coverage. I did catch a show in passing (I think it was on TSN) called either Martial Art Masters or Kung Fu Masters (or something close) which had some well worked demonstrations. Although it looked like it was produced as a series, I could not find a mention in the TV listings, nor TSN website of it. I look forward to viewing TKD on TV or any other Martial Art for that matter for personal interest as well as education. If there is someone to write to in support for this program, could you post an address? John P. Oss Scarborough ON ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 06:10:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Fwd: FIGHTING IN THE STREETS - A REAL TEST... Forwarded for your review, if interested. Ken McD... - --- Tony Blauer wrote: > Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 09:04:57 -0500 > From: Tony Blauer > Subject: FIGHTING IN THE STREETS - A REAL TEST... > > FOOD FOR THOUGHT... > > There is a thread in the SF.COM Underground, where someone was asking about > who had the best stuff for the street, though the very question implies a > lack of understanding on just what really goes on during real fights, the > thread devolved (and at times evolved) into the silly, but age-old theory > that only someone who has been in many fights can teach fighting. > > This contention, of course is contrary to real world evidence, but hey, who > looks at the facts before the write or speak [The Angelo Dundee's, Cus > D'Amatos, Lombardi's and other great coaches could never play the 'game' at > the level that their disciples did. > > I consider a streetfight to be a negligent accident. In my world, > streetfigthing is not the same as 'self-defense'. Not morally and not > tactically. [Red pill or Blue pill]. My statement that" I would not want to > take driving lessons from someone who 'brags' that they've been in 1000 car > accidents..." is continually misunderstood. The operative concept is 'brags'. > > Phil Hughes dug up something from some old interview I did [and it prompted > me to write the above]. Again, just food for thought. Here's the quote: > > > Subject: RE: INFO > Date: 09-Feb-00 | 12:10 AM > I thought this would be of interest, it is from an interview Tony did awhile > back: > "Anyone who goes looking to 'test' their system is also a predator, because > a fundamental human directive is to 'always' survive; no one picks a fight > looking to loose. > In other words, if this concept can be grasped, people who win hundreds of > fights have usually picked them.; both the fight and the victim. > Understand? Through an unconscious/ or conscious evaluation, no one wants to > be hospitalized, so we rarely start fighters with people that'll kick our > butts. So is the so-called test a real test of 'self-defense' savvy? > In my opinion, real self-defense is when you are minding your business and > s&*t happens and you shovel the s&*t, not when you're the ambusher or > sucker-puncher. > This behavioral reality eludes many people and that is why when we simulate > and replicate we always do it from positions of adversity..." > > Stay safe, > > Tony Blauer > www.tonyblauer.com > > PS: If you haven't seen it, please check out the SPEAR feature in this > month's BLACK BELT magazine. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: "Victor Cushing" Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 09:20:42 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: 9(th Dans and 10th Dans and that whole ball of wax I know Todd Miller. He trains hard, has respect for others and is willing to share and compare (as he and I did on his mats several months ago). His pride and loyalty to his Grandmaster is commendable. However, I have to weigh in on Master West's side of this discourse as far as any designation of someone as a "true" 9th Dan. As long as we teach/learn Hapkido in any of its variations at the core of what we practice is hopefully a shared attitude of respect for those pioneers who have helped to develop our art. The "My Grandmaster outranks (fights better, trained long with Choi, Young Sul, has been alive longer, smells better) that your Grandmaster" stuff is not appropriate. Historically for ages, younger advanced students have gone their own ways for whatever reason and founded their own schools/ryus/styles/do etc. This is the way of growth and evolution in martial arts (otherwise we would all just be student of "The One True Master") and in my opinion outside of the narrow confines of martial arts that could only be God. So let's agree that those that came before us (many of whom are still here teaching) deserve our respect and that arguments about the level of rank amongst those who are above us is a bit like an argument about whether Button 14 on a Blender does a better job than Button 15 of mashing things into a pulp. Of course if the claim to experience is false, then let's shine a spotlight on it, but don't mistake rank and titles for experience when you get into that area. Since some of these Grandmasters have spun off into separate organizations they have taken various titles like President. If one would view their sometimes self designated ranks of 9th and 10th as simply titles denoting their level within their own organizations perhaps that would help. Again I am not supporting the folks with two years of training and a printer who simply make up their own art and 10th Dan rank certificate, but am discussing those individuals who have years of training and teaching behind them. The rank of someone like that is not particularly important, their knowledge is. ... and just to weigh in with another "true" (whatever that means) 9th Dan, My original Grandmaster HYUN, K.S. is ranked as 9th Dan in Hapkido by the Korea Ki-Do Association as are others. As he has been teaching Hapkido for 31 years and training by my calculations for over 45 years, he has probably risen to at least Button 14. It's a joke, folks, I have the greatest respect for him, I am using this just to illustrate the silliness involved in this type of argument. Vic Cushing, President International Modern Hapkido Federation only 5th Dan....I haven't made myself into a Button 14 (yet?). ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 06:30:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Fwd: Re: Ancient European Unarmed Combat Forwarded for your review, if interested: McD... - --- Neil Richardson wrote: > Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 11:44:19 GMT > Reply-to: Jujutsu List --- Jujutsu > From: Neil Richardson > Subject: Re: Ancient European Unarmed Combat > To: JUJUTSU@LISTS.PSU.EDU > > Howdy folks, > > One website you might want to try is as follows: > > http://www.aemma.org/index2.htm > > This is the Academy of European Medieval Martial Arts. Not sure if it > includes unarmed combat, but its worth a look. > > Back to lurking, > Neil. > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Farthing, James > >Sent: 07 February 2000 15:02 > >Subject: Ancient European Unarmed Combat > > > > >Does anyone know of any online resources for unarmed? > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: Brett Erwin Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 08:33:10 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: "Other requirements" for rank Most schools/orgs have set curriculum for testing and obtaining black belt ranks. But what kind of "other", non-physical requirements exist (other than time at rank, etc)? For example, in the ATA, I beleive there is a requirement that a 5th degree must have 500 or more students under him to be eligible for 6th degree. That includes owning multiple schools, or having one of your students become and instructor and open a school of his own. This is basically a "business" requirement. What do you guys think? Are these requirements appropriate, or merely a way of ensuring survival of the organization? Should high ranks, Masters, etc. be required to do more than just physically perform and teach? Should they even be required to teach? ATA requires that anyone testing for 4th degree black belt must be a certified instructor (which follows a comprehensive instructor-trainee program). Why isn't a 3rd degree's physical ability and knowledge of the art enough to earn the right to test? Does he need to "give back" by teaching? I'd like to hear about what other "non-physical" requirements exist, and also *WHY* they exist, and are they meaningful? Regards, Brett Erwin Allen, TX ------------------------------ From: JEREMYT@ATFI.COM (JeremyT) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 08:46:50 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Martial Ways not Art? Please excuse my ignorance on this subject, but what is the difference between art and way? Fighting is combat, and combat without the use of weapons is an art. This is from the book Hwarang Do by Master Lee, Joo-bang. (I don't want to get into a flame war about the validity of Hwarangdo, just look at the message). I agree fully with this statement. Sun Tzu did not write the Way of War, but the Art of War. When you take out all the fluff and hype in the martial arts, you still have the art. It is the art of combat. It seems that you have found your Way in the Art that you study and that is great. Some people spend years trying to find and Art that they fit into. Some are lucky enough to find it their first time. Just because a system does tournaments, forms, etc. does not make it any less valid than one that does nothing but hosinsool. Anyway, I will stop my rambling and again ask the question. What is the difference between art and way? Jeremy MACS ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 06:43:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Fwd: Re: Rolling=good source for mats Forwarded. - --- Ken McDonough wrote: > Good discussion on rolling below. However, one fundamental flaw=good mats > are needed. I have located a good source for mats. Best prices and > services. > They also offer a nice "crash mat" that is good for those jiu-jitsu type > falls. One of the models also folds; good for home use. > > Has anyone mentioned here that a person just starting rolling should first > start in knee position, then squat position, followed by stand position ? > > Good mat source= Marathon Gymnastics Mats; 1-800-363-3591. Speak with > Pauline. > > Ken McD... > > --- Dan Simon - CompNet wrote: > > > glad u replied! > > > Hi, fairly new to the list - have been kinda lurking here for a > > > while! And have read the 'mails with ...interest. > > > The advice on rolls is coming in handy....but i'm someone who needs > > > to made to roll if u now what i mean. Don't like upside downpart - > > > even though it is quick!! > > > any help!? > > > > Personally, I have practiced my rolling quite a bit, my aerial falls > > as well. > > > > In general, I find aerial falls to be a bad idea outside of the > > dojang (i.e. on street/concrete). I don't care how good you get at > > doing an aerial fall, they still hurt on concrete. If faced with a > > choice of having someone break my wrist in a joint lock or taking an > > aerial, I might be inclined to take the fall, but this will > > (hopefully) be a very rare instance. > > > > Aerials are a wonderful exercise in learning to control your body, > > however. They also teach you not to be afraid of being upside > > down.... > > > > As far as rolling, I can only give pointers...if you want to get > > good, you need to practice. > > > > 1. Start out in a front stance. > > > > 2. It has been mentioned that you should look at your belt while > > rolling. I find it more helpful to look at your back leg. This > > basically amounts to the same head position, but makes you a bit more > > aware of what your back leg is doing. You should see your back leg > > go straight up over your head as you roll. > > > > 3. As Melissa mentioned, try to curve your forward arm in such a way > > that your fingers are pointing in at your chest. This will allow you > > to roll along your arm without (hopefully) hitting any knobby bits. > > > > 4. You should roll along your arm and diagonally across your back, > > starting at the shoulder and ending at the opposite hip. If you find > > your self rolling on your side, concentrate on your rear leg a bit > > more: it really should go straight up and over you. > > > > Once you perfect rolling on the ground, all that there is to aerial > > falls is raising the ground by a few feet and doing the same thing ;) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 07:02:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [none] ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #86 ******************************* It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry, CA Taekwondo, and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.