From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #88 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Wed, 9 Feb 2000 Vol 07 : Num 088 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #87 Re: the_dojang: kups and divisions or categories the_dojang: Time Re: the_dojang: Time the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #86 the_dojang: 9th dans the_dojang: To be correct the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang: 9th dans the_dojang: Fwd: RE: FIGHTING IN THE STREETS - A REAL TEST... Re: the_dojang: To be correct the_dojang: language ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~765 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry, CA Taekwondo, and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Silke Schulz" Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 11:05:18 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #87 Sam asked: >Silke, can you elaborate any further, inquiring minds want to know! Unfortunately, not yet. But I have asked my friend with the production company for an update, so if I learn anything more, I will certainly pass it along to all of you!!! Silke ------------------------------ From: "Yarchak, Mary Kay" Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 14:19:28 -0500 Subject: Re: the_dojang: kups and divisions or categories In response to Betty's inquiry re: tournaments and the women's senior (35+?) division, I have definitely been a similar situation in 2 of the 3 tournaments I have attended so far in my rather short TSD career (I just tested for 5th gup but haven't been officially promoted yet). From what I have seen -- and from the experiences shared with me by more senior (in rank, not age) gup women at my do jang who have been competing longer than I - -- there just aren't that many senior division women around, especially at smaller tournaments. At one tournament I attended, there were only 3 gup women in the "intermediate" senior division which went from 7th gup through 1st gup. At another, one gup division went from 7th through 4th and another from 3rd through 1st for forms and sparring. At the latter, all gup breaks (men, women, all ages) were judged as one division. It was kind of unnerving at first, but now, all I can tell you is that we (the other senior women from my do jang and I) come physically and mentally prepared to compete with anybody of any age/sex/level in any of the competition categories... It's the only way not to get psyched out and it makes it all that much more challenging and interesting (and fun)! MK ------------------------------ From: "Gecko K. Martial Arts" Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 12:21:27 PST Subject: the_dojang: Time First off to those people who have read this on other lists I apologize, but I really need a wide response. Especially from the Korean Stylists. Thanks Ok because of a recent personal ethical debate, I would like to ask those who are willing to tell me how long it took you to get your 1st degree black belt or equivalent and how long did you train until you received your second degree?  I know that there is no "set time" and it depends on the circumstances, but I would just like to know personal stories.  I do not wish for this to become an avenue for people to flame each other, I would just really appreciate an answer to these questions.  I know what is the average for schools that I have had contact with and personal experience, but I would like to know from a larger base of Martial artists from around the world. Thank you, Sandy ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 12:58:51 PST Subject: Re: the_dojang: Time > Ok because of a recent personal ethical debate, I would like to ask those > who are willing to tell me how long it took you to get your 1st degree black > belt or equivalent and how long did you train until you received your second > degree?  I know that there is no "set time" and it depends on the > circumstances, but I would just like to know personal stories.  I do not > wish for this to become an avenue for people to flame each other, I would > just really appreciate an answer to these questions.  I know what is the > average for schools that I have had contact with and personal experience, > but I would like to know from a larger base of Martial artists from around > the world. Thank you, You might check with list member Dakin Burdick. I think he did a survey of this type a few years ago. Dakin, you out there? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Chuck Sears" Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 14:51:35 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #86 > From: Brett Erwin > Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 08:33:10 -0600 > Subject: the_dojang: "Other requirements" for rank > > Most schools/orgs have set curriculum for testing and > obtaining black belt ranks. But what kind of "other", > non-physical requirements exist (other than time at rank, > etc)? > > For example, in the ATA, I beleive there is a requirement > that a 5th degree must have 500 or more students under him > to be eligible for 6th degree. That includes owning multiple > schools, or having one of your students become and instructor > and open a school of his own. This is basically a "business" > requirement. > > What do you guys think? Are these requirements appropriate, > or merely a way of ensuring survival of the organization? > Should high ranks, Masters, etc. be required to do more than > just physically perform and teach? Should they even be required > to teach? > > ATA requires that anyone testing for 4th degree black belt > must be a certified instructor (which follows a comprehensive > instructor-trainee program). Why isn't a 3rd degree's physical > ability and knowledge of the art enough to earn the right to test? > Does he need to "give back" by teaching? > I have been present when questions like this have been asked at camps, seminars, etc., and if I can scrape the cobwebs off my memory.... One of Grand Master Lee's philosophies is that if you are not willing to undertake responsibility, you do not need rank (that's where his "Admiral in a rowboat" statement comes from). That's why to test for 3rd Degree, you need to "have a collar", as jr. leader, trainee or certified. Each succeeding degree of Black Belt requires more dedication and more responsibility, and therefore has more stringent requirements. There is an obligation of sorts to pass on your knowledge to others (the "teaching for posterity" thing). Besides, to truly become a master of martial arts, you need to teach it to others, because you learn more by teaching than by just doing. And to be a good teacher, you need to know all aspects of teaching, including how to run a school. I had some qualms about the changes in the instructor certification process that have been recently announced, but after talking with Master M. K. Lee and Master Kohl, I am wholeheartedly in favor of the expanded curriculum and requirements. New instructors coming out of the program will be in much better shape than I was to start up a school and be successful at it. And the new curriculum for developing instructors into masters is awesome! My head is still spinning from things we discussed last August in the first high rank camp and I've got eight more to go! ------------------------------ From: "hkdhal" Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 16:37:49 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: 9th dans To clear a few things Grandmaster Ji was Chang, Chin Ill's instructor before he trained with Choi Young Sool? Also Master Lim stated he started training with Choi in 1964 that is about 12 years later than Ji ?When I met Chang Chin Ill in Seoul during Oct. He stated he was a 10th Dan and Doju of the system? These are a few simple questions that is all. Hal ------------------------------ From: HKDTodd@aol.com Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 17:11:36 EST Subject: the_dojang: To be correct I call Master Ji because he was promoted to 4th or 5th dan by The founder (Doju) so why would I call Master Ji Doju. ------------------------------ From: RDNHJMS@aol.com Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 17:23:33 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang: 9th dans Todd wrote: <> Hey Ray, great to see more HKD posts on the digest. Sorry I don't get enough time to contribute more often, but work has been very busy lately. I barely get enough time to read the list every day. About Todd's posts: Grandmaster Jung Hwan Park of Tampa, (his school is about 15 miles from mine) once told me that Hapkido is not about one person, or for that matter one organization. Dr. Park, a student of GM Choi, has been teaching Hapkido longer than most people on than this list have been alive, he and his opinions I respect. When GM Ji visits, he often gives him a courtesy call, and we go have dinner together. This is done out of respect for each other as people and martial artists. I' m sure they have traded stories about training with GM Choi. In case nobody has noticed, it's usually the younger children who engage in the age old game of "my daddy is tougher than your daddy". Personally, I'd like to hear more from Master West, and the other (pardon the expression) old timers (just joking really), about their training experiences in the 60's and 70's. This is the only way we learn how Hapkido has come to be what it is today. Gee, I've used up my 5 free-minutes of the day already. Time to start class. P.S.: For Mike Tomlinson: Get ready buddy, the pain begins in less than two weeks. Very Respectfully, Rick Nabors ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 12:38:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Fwd: RE: FIGHTING IN THE STREETS - A REAL TEST... I previously forwarded the subject topic. Here is another follow-up opinion written by another individual. Respectfully submitted for your reviewing pleasure. Ken McD... - --- Tony Blauer wrote: > Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 14:39:39 -0500 > Subject: RE: FIGHTING IN THE STREETS - A REAL TEST... > > Jim : > > Very prophetic, I had no idea you wrote so well. You are doubly > dangerous then, physical tough and skilled in the style of Stylus-Do... > > [ where the Pen is Mightier than the Sword] I shall post this on your > behalf as it is too valuable for my eyes only. > > Sincerely, > > Tony. > > -----Original Message----- > From: James Bouchard > Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2000 10:24 AM > To: Tony Blauer > Subject: Re: FIGHTING IN THE STREETS - A REAL TEST... > > Well, I usually try to stay out of these things but in this case I felt > compelled to write. > > People fight for many reasons. People practice martial arts and > self-defense for just as many. Even though there's so many different > reasons for fighting or precutting the combat arts, the one reason that > continues to rear it's head and cause trouble is simply: ego. > > For those who hold adamantly to the viewpoint that one must have > street-fighting experience in order to teach self-defense methods, I > simply ask this question: "What did you learn?" > > If an instructor is really still out there testing his abilities and honing > his craft by fighting in the streets, the obvious answer will be a resume > of techniques and tactics. If an instructor has seen the reality of street > combat and now avoids conflict whenever possible, this enlightened > instructor will sincerely share the ugly side of his experience and urge > students to avoid conflict whenever possible. > > The only people in our allegedly civilized society that have a moral > obligation to fight on a regular basis are those in the law enforcement > community, those in protective services, and those in the military. For the > rest of us, we are preparing for an emergency circumstance we hope never > occurs. Without exception, the people I know in these professions who have > actually seen combat in war or on the street would do everything possible > to avoid it given a reasonable option. > > To "traditional" martial artists, I offer another perspective. Recently, I > have been researching the roots of the words "Chuan Fa" and "Kenpo". No > matter what system you practice, these words and their linguistic > equivalents will lead you to the roots of most Asian martial arts. > > In my research, I found conclusively that most of our practices originate > from Indian forms called "Pratima". These forms were practiced as a way to > evoke and study certain emotional conditions. In martial forms, aggression > would be evoked. When two people practice, today we would call it sparring, > there are inevitably times when anger appears. Once these emotions are > brought to the surface, we can become aware of them. We can study them. We > can ultimately learn how to control them, and when, if ever, it is > appropriate to use them. > > The entire concept of self-defense had a much different meaning to the > Buddhist founders of most of our systems. To our ancestors in the arts, > self defense meant simply preserving life through healthful practices so we > could enjoy a longer life in which to better attain enlightenment and help > others do the same. To defend one's self against a violent attract was > secondary, and indeed, the concept of escaping death from any agent was at > best futile, and at worst the ultimate cause of most human suffering. > > Sadly, to many martial artists today self defense means "If you try me, > I'll kick your ass!" > > Fortunately, most martial artists who fail to find a central philosophical > base for their practice, whether traditional or progressive, will > inevitably run out of fuel to sustain the search. > > I have only found two unshakable truths about fighting: > > Whenever people fight, someone will get hurt. > > If you keep looking for someone tougher than you, you will find him. > > More than anything this is a simple appeal, however futile, to end this > constant arguing about who's the best and who has the undefensable > technique. I appeal to all instructors of self-defense to revisit the > philosophical roots of the fighting arts. The wisest minds of humanity have > always found that studying human conflict is a noble pursuit, and finding > ways to resolve human conflict is a holy pursuit. Someone who looks for > opportunity to test himself in the street is not practicing self-defense, > he is practicing assault! > > Defending one's self is a sacred right. Defending one's ego is a futile > obsession. > > Tony, when I met you I felt a great warmth and sincerity from you. Please > feel free to use any or all of this message in any way you see fit. On a > personal note, if someone has used this "street experience" bulls&$t as a > way to discredit you teachings, please don't waste an ounce of energy in any > sort of defense. Those who appreciate what you have to share will see > through it. Ultimately, it is only people who are psychotically aggressive > who gravitate to the bar-fighter, prison yard, real-life street fighting > s%*t. You don't even want to train people like that! > > I don't remember the ancient Chinese philosopher who said this one, so > I'll just pass it along... > > "All assh^*es will eventually be sat upon!" > > Thanks for everything you've shared with us so far, and I hope all is well. > Please say hello to your family and we hope to see you soon! > > With respect, > Jim __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 15:39:09 PST Subject: Re: the_dojang: To be correct > I call Master Ji because he was promoted to 4th or 5th dan by The founder > (Doju) so why would I call Master Ji Doju. Simple. Because GM Ji founded (take your pick depending on which of the many political orgs one is in) either: Hapkido or Modern-Hapkido or Sung-Moo-Kwan-Hapkido or Sin-Moo-Hapkido Some claim only Sin Moo Hapkido, others claim all the above. Either way Do Ju Nim fits. And also either way, GM fits. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 15:30:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: language Folks, please watch the language in the posts. Thanks. Ray Terry ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #88 ******************************* It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry, CA Taekwondo, and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.