From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #119 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Tues, 22 Feb 2000 Vol 07 : Num 119 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: the value of a feminist approach to SD the_dojang: Re: Entrance interviews? the_dojang: ITF weapons the_dojang: Re: when do you beginning board breaking the_dojang: Hand conditioning - my 2 cents the_dojang: Re: moving on... the_dojang: Re: Studying Different Styles the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #118 - Women and Self Defense the_dojang: Hand Conditioning the_dojang: shorter ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 785 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry, CA Taekwondo, and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Laura Kamienski Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 11:03:32 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: the value of a feminist approach to SD Hi Cliff, Just FYI, I've received a host of private messages with regard to this topic. Most of them very positive. Though your intention might be sincere, I consider your comments about where I live and/or grew up unnecessary to discussing topic and bordering on flame...with that said... > 1. They assume that men cannot understand women, i.e., This is not an assumption. Just as I don't intuitively understand the male experience, men don't understand the female experience. Objective fact, no assumption. I can't intuitively understand what it's like to be African American or Native American either. I can help fight for the equality of other groups, but I can not fully empathize. Nor would I want or expect to take a leadership role in their struggles. > that. I don't believe we need to read all the "touchy-feely" books to gain I think you're assuming a lot here without any actual experience. How do you know that the books I recommend are 'touchy-feely"? I think you'd be surprised. Just so you know, I'm not a fan of the 'touchy feely' crowd either. ;^) But a certain level of care is needed when dealing with women in an SD class. > just fine and there are several by Gary Smalley. I resent the constant > inference that women are by birth victims of a male dominated world and that > men from birth have as there in-born drive a desire to victimize women. None of these books, nor do I, claim that there is an in-born drive to victimize women. That's one of the main points. We are talking about learned behaviors. If this were all a matter of something in-born, I'd say women should accept their role and live with it best we can. >> "In >> other words, women cannot decide to stop being victims without understanding >>their victimization. This is exactly why a feminist approach to teaching >> women's SD is absolutely key." >That's the quote. Victimization is an > assumed mindset and we proceed from there. 'Nuff said on that. Not really enough said. I didn't say an assumed 'mindset'. It is a fact that we live in a society that perpetuates and promulgates the victimization of women. With that, all women are victims at one level or another. Until we understand this, the forces that perpetuate and promulgate the exploitation and oppression of women, will continue to do so. This follows _because_ the first defense against any attack is awareness. Part of awareness is understanding what's going on. > 2. If a woman is going to be assaulted, will it be, in most cases, by > another woman, or by a man? It's easy to see where I'm going - what f> confidence does it build in a woman to know she can defend herself against > another woman? Some, I'm sure. There was a course years ago on the west > coast taught by a male black belt called "Model Mugging", born out of the > vicious assault on his wife, also a black belt. The course was FULL CONTACT > and was directed to the tearing down of the paradigm that women are timid, > frightened creatures, unable to PHYSICALLY defend themselves. Graduates of > that course had track records of successful self-defense that proved the > courses worth. The instructors, the "muggers", were all male. I am in full agreement with full contact padded attacker courses and with the attackers being male. In fact I enjoy taking them, and do every chance I get. Notice I talked about women being the main instructor i.e. coach ...not the attacker. I've done the model mugging (it's now IMPACT-- btw Ellen Snortland is an instructor and her book Beauty Bites Beast is about the experiences women have in this course), I've done RAD and I've done FACTMAN and others. I think full contact padded attacker courses are a must. If you were really familiar with these courses you'd know that most of them take a feminist approach. In fact some IMPACT courses are very, 'touchy feely', which is one of the reasons that wasn't my favorite, but I digress My own school is developing a padded attacker class. My instructor and another man will be the assailants. I will be the instructor. Also, if you've ever been involved with these courses you would know that men are usually not involved with the discussion aspects of the course. Women simply don't feel comfortable talking about rape and other issues in front of men. Those that did have men in the discussions had a very different tone in my experience. You might also want to note that these courses are for women only. Why? For exactly the same reasons why women should be the primary instructor. There are very distinct and special needs here. > 3. The advent of girls' sports programs, particularly soccer and > basketball, have prepared the typical American female athlete to be more > aggressive, self-assured, assertive, and confident. I have that on > first-hand experience as both my daughters were soccer players. I therefore > do not agree that today's young ladies are like their counterparts in > previous generations. Agreed, and I am very encouraged and proud to see that our efforts and our mothers' efforts have not gone unrewarded. When I was in school, these sports were not an option. I will point out that wrestling and football and other contact sports are still not widely available for girls. I've heard lots of comments from women after padded attacker classes. These comment come from both women with and without m.a. experience. Comments like: "I've been physically active in sports my whole life, but none of it was like this!" and "I've played sports my whole life but just to yell "NO" like that was a new experience." and "It was really emotionally difficult to deal with the verbal assaults, it's not like playing a game." I could go on...these comments coming from women in their early 20's. > 4. The term "feminist" alone is divisive, as this thread of discussion > will, no doubt, bear out. It is not to be avoided but it does not, connote > "equality among the sexes" - it is a term that, to me, indicates an overly > self-centered thought pattern where a woman is taught that men are innately > evil, out to get them, that they need to scratch and claw and overcome in > order to carve out their place in the world. Like any political movement, there are disagreements within the feminist movement. But no genuine feminist I know thinks men are 'evil'. Furthermore I think that fighting for social justice is an example of the least self centered of endeavors. Your comments are exactly like reaction I was talking about when I referred to the reactionary movement against feminism. Please take time to read some of the texts I mention. Without any knowledge of feminism it will be impossible for you to take any reasonable counter position. In your research you will find that 'hating men' is not the intention or program of feminism. In fact that idea is contrary to the goals of feminism. Equality is the goal...how is that a form of hatred? It stands that those who choose to ignore or who participate in the victimization of women are exhibiting the most hatred. The ideas of the "man hating 'b%^&*" were invented deliberately to weaken the feminist movement. Backlash by Susan Faludi outlines these tactics brilliantly and precisely. Again, please don't dismiss the texts blindly. > 5. "I can't pick up a magazine or turn on the television without seeing > assaults on women. I can't leave my house without experiencing some cat call > or demeaning remark during my day." Like I said at the start - I don't know > where Laura lives, the kind of neighborhood, her work environment, etc. I > can't pick up a magazine or newspaper, look at TV or listen to radio, where > I don't hear or see men being blasted - so perhaps it's our point of > reference. How do you train for "verbal assault" anyway? How are men blasted?...How many 1-800 'chat' line ads have men prancing around, half naked trying to seduce others into calling at $2.00 a minute? Take a look at MTV...how are women portrayed? As intelligent self sufficient people? Nope...in fact rape on MTV is common and exalted. How are men portrayed there? Advertising...soap operas....movies....how many movies are there where women are the main characters, intelligent and integral to the story and not helpless victims waiting to be rescued by Rambo (the modern Prince Charming)? Speaking of Prince Charming...take a look at children's stories and fairy tales. Okay...okay, now we have LIFETIME. I say it's about time! Take an IMPACT class and you'll see some methods how to train against verbal assault. Reading the books I describe along with other books like "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin DeBecker ( a man ) is another great way to train against verbal attacks. Recognizing an attack is the first step. Many women don't even know how to do that or they go into denial when it is happening. It bothers me, but I still do this. > Our school has offered self-defense courses to women, and the feedback, > without exception, is that the course was a complete success - my wife was > one of those students. Our school has trained 4 women to reach the level of > Dan in Soo Bahk Do which represent roughly 20% of our Dans. I believe every > instructor is different, be they male or female, so I avoid generalizations. Every instructor is different I totally agree with you. A woman might be a terrible SD instructor. My assertion is that we all must take a feminist approach to teaching women SD for it to have the most postitive effect. All other things being equal, women are best suited to teach using this approach, because they are women. > level of "understanding" inferred in the post is perhaps best reached in a > professional counselor's office, as the students Laura talks about seem to > be post-traumatic, previously assaulted women. If you meet a woman who has never been assaulted...take a picture cuz you won't meet another for a long time. And the next time you see her, it could very likely be different. > I can't say for sure. The > idea seems okay that men cannot have male-only institutions or activities, > but women simply cannot be understood or reach their potential without > female-only activities and institutions. There seems to be a contradiction > in the words that I cannot abide - kind of a "have your cake and eat it > too." Men have, and do have their own institutions (in fact they 'have' most of them now) and activities for centuries. Does it seem unreasonable for women to take a turn and some space? > This has not adequately explained my complete opinion but I need to stop. > Just remember that opinion goes two ways - I don't agree with Laura but I'd > love to train with her anytime or place. I can't recommend enough that you read more on the topic, which you have seemingly refused to do. Your arguments come, by your own admission, from a lack of information. I find this discouraging. I'd love to train with you anytime or place as well. Respectfully, Laura - -- lkamiens@ptd.net lkamnski@bucknell.edu http://home.switchboard.com/LKamienski ____________________________________________________ "I am not an angry girl. But it seems I've got everyone fooled. Every time I say something they find hard to hear, they chalk it up to my anger and never to their own fear." Ani DiFranco ____________________________________________________ ------------------------------ From: CBAUGHN@aol.com Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 11:00:31 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Entrance interviews? "Sam Stratton" wrote: << Our school is priced slightly higher than average but we have two WTF/Kukkiwon certified grandmasters at our school that teach and observe and take a few students to train in Korea once or twice a year. >> Do the grandmasters take the students to Korea gratis or do the students have to pay for the trip in addition to the higher than average fees they pay because the grandmasters take students to Korea? Sally cbaughn@aol.com ------------------------------ From: HKDTodd@aol.com Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 11:21:09 EST Subject: the_dojang: ITF weapons The ITF does not have any weapon requirements for any rank per say although each instructor has the freedom to ask things that are above and beyond what the ITF requires for testing. Todd ------------------------------ From: "Pohl, Axel" Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 17:25:24 MET-1MEST Subject: the_dojang: Re: when do you beginning board breaking In our school the first belt that requires breaking boards is the blue belt (4th kyp). Possible techniques are dwit chagi (Back kick) dollyo chagi (Round kick) twio ap chagi (Jump front kick) dwi olligi (Spinning kick) (Jump side kick) twio yob chagi (jumping over 5 persons) twio yob chagi (board held with one hand) First contact for our students ist often a demonstration where they get their first experiences with breaking boards. In most cases these studetns are green belts. ------------------------------ From: Arlene Slocum Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 10:55:17 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Hand conditioning - my 2 cents >From: "John Bennett" >Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 10:41:16 -0600 >Subject: the_dojang: Hand Conditioning - DON'T >> From: CMPorter@webtv.net (Chris Porter) >> Subject: the_dojang: Hand conditioning >> about hand conditioning, how do you do it, if you do? >Chris, in years past some people would "condition" their hands by >hitting things like sand and makiwara boards. >We now know that this was not a very smart thing to do. I'll jump in on this one. One of the greatest long term benefits in studying martial arts for a woman in her middle age years is that it is an excellent way to toughen your body. When we practice Hapkido we fling our entire bodies onto a mat for 2 hours straight and this makes the whole body tougher and able to take a fall. This has given me the confidence to know that when I am 70 or 80 or beyond that I won't be as likely to break a hip or arm because I have not only trained on how to fall, but also how to take the impact of a fall. This principle applies to my hands as well. I don't do conditioning like the iron fist guys, but I do 1000 hard punches on a bag barehanded every week and occasional light striking of a carpet covered board. If this will lead to stiffness and arthritis later I'd rather have that than give up the extra hand and wrist strength I have gained through conditioning. Most of the elderly people I know have stiffness and arthritis in their hands and they don't do hand strike conditioning - at least I'll have extra strength, focus and confidence in the use of my hands in addition to the inevitable arthritis that comes with age.. Arlene Slocum 1st Dan Lawrence Tae Kwon Do School Lawrence, Kansas ArleneS@geoaccess.com ------------------------------ From: dbuehrer@denver.carl.org Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 09:45:53 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: moving on... >From: Ray Terry >Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 14:22:26 -0800 (PST) >Subject: the_dojang: moving on... > >Folks, remember I already said that we are moving on wrt the "my instructor >is bigger than your instructor" thread. No more. Hah. My instructor is 6'4". Beat that. ;) (Sorry, couldn't resist :) To Life, - -David Buehrer 6th Gup, Hapkido http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3 - -- "Warm nights, good food, kindred spirits....great life!" ------------------------------ From: dbuehrer@denver.carl.org Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 09:43:44 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Studying Different Styles >From: "Brian Woodard" > >I am currently a 5th Kub in TKD. I have been intrigued by the art of HKD. >Is there a certain level of TKD that I should reach before branching out to >studying two styles? TKD will probably always be my main art, but the more >HKD I see makes me interested. Thank you in advance for your opinions. Most MA practitioners recommend achieving 1st Dan in your current style before training in other styles. Just for the record, a fellow student close to my rank was taking HKD and TKD simultaneously. He burnt out after about a year and I haven't seen him in quite some time. I would agree with the advice someone else gave. Consider waiting till 2nd Dan. By the time one reaches 2nd Dan I would expect them to have a solid foundation in the basics of their style. I would also expect them to have achieved a high level of self-awareness and sense of focus that would allow them to pursue two or more styles simultaneously. To Life, - -David Buehrer 6th Gup, Hapkido http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3 - -- "Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday ... and all is well." ------------------------------ From: "Victor Cushing" Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 13:13:59 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #118 - Women and Self Defense Having watched this thread be expanded beyond all reason on another list (Martial Science) due to circumstances beyond that list's moderator's control. I sincerely hope that the any future posts will deal with what works best to teach self defense to women and not turn into an argument where one vehemently expressed side along the lines of "only women can understand and teach other women, all of whom are or will become victims" leads to endless flames and arguments about "feelings" and semantics. Let's express ourselves clearly about any martial arts issue, but please do not start this thread up again just as a forum to politicize self defense and be divisive. I will freely admit that I cannot completely understand any other human being's experience and have to generalize from my experience and whatever that person chooses to reveal to me. It is probably also generally true that victims of sexual assault or domestic abuse are not going to be very comfortable sharing their trauma with male instructors. This granted, however, since I have had female students train with me, who have successfully defended themselves in assault situations (including female police officers) I am not of the mind to agree that no men can ever train women in self defense. Laura feels very strongly about these issues, it would be my hope that she will show restraint if this thread is continued, so that we do not have a repeat of the debacle disguised as a debate that I observed last time. Vic Cushing President of International Modern Hapkido Federation Member and Sponsor of the American Women's Self Defense Association Member of American Society of Law Enforcement Trainers ------------------------------ From: David Weller Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 12:52:09 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Hand Conditioning "John Bennett" Writes: David Weller says: "Most faces, ribs and groins are soft enough that an unconditioned knuckle, (etc) will do the trick just fine." This is another common misconception in the martial arts. A person's facial structure and skull structure are harder than a person's hand. If you punch a person in the face, you run a very good risk of breaking your hand. If won't happen every time, but if it does, you better have knocked the guy out because now you must fight with one hand. Did I say face ????? I take back the face thing, I was drunk, or something, I would NEVER hit anyone in the face with my hand. Replace with (neck, spine,kidney, armpit, temple,or even a good ol poke to the eyes). What I was trying to point out was that there are plenty of soft targets (and I understand now that face was a poor example) on the human body that can be effectively struck with out "conditioned" knuckles. I don't beat on anvils or anything like that to condition myself, I do like to throw in a hand technique at demonstrations and without some help it would be painful. I guess I'll deal with the arthritis if it rears its ugly head, but according to my wife, dementia will strike well before I have to worry about painful joints. I saw one of the Korean Tigers at a Demo do a three board break with a spear hand thrust.. Cripes it hurt just to watch that !!! John's point is very valid, and as I said in my original post, hand conditioning should only be done if you are fully aware of the dangers it entails. Dave Weller (WTF TKD student) "Practice a thousand hours and you learn self discipline. Practice ten thousand hours and you learn about yourself." Myamoto Musashi ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 13:11:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: shorter Folks, lets keep the posts a little shorter, ok? Thanks. Ray P.S. Hello from CO. ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #119 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry, CA Taekwondo, and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.