From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #121 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Wed, 23 Feb 2000 Vol 07 : Num 121 In this issue: the_dojang: ATA Question the_dojang: Victimization the_dojang: Conditioning the_dojang: Re: martial arts, SD and politics the_dojang: Actual Tourney Accounts the_dojang: Women's SD (Laura's Post) the_dojang: Infalliable Monk? Bunk. the_dojang: Re: all women dojangs etc. etc. the_dojang: Verbal Tang Soo Do! the_dojang: Re:Was Entrance interviews? Now :no free rides the_dojang: Re: martial arts, SD and politics the_dojang: Divorce (and Martial Arts) the_dojang: weapons in TKD the_dojang: Re:women and SD the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #120 the_dojang: Rotation Teaching? the_dojang: Hodge-podge of this n' that... the_dojang: Master Silz the_dojang: women's SD ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 785 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry, CA Taekwondo, and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SecOfDef@aol.com Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 18:35:09 EST Subject: the_dojang: ATA Question Hello, I am new to the art of Taekwondo within the past year and am currently a member of the ATA (American Taekwondo Association). My school is excellent and the instructors are top-notch, but I have some concerns about the larger organization. Specifically, I wonder if the ATA is ultimately focused on money, not on teaching the art. This seems to be a relatively common perception on internet newsgroups, and seemed to fit the profile of a recent ATA closed tournament which I attended. The registration fee was reasonable (about $35), but there was a lot of ATA merchandise being peddled in the arena and trophy engraving was a reasonable $3 (but wow, were a lot of trophies given out!). Perhaps this is the norm across many of the martial arts, but it did seem to give credibility to the earlier allegations of the ATA being fixated on money. As I stated, I am enjoying my studies and have great respect for my instructors, but am simply worried about the ATA organization as a whole. Any comments? Regards, Sam *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ ICQ: 63176844 "Failure is the opportunity to begin again, more intelligently." --Henry Ford ------------------------------ From: Joan Bostic Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 18:11:05 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Victimization It all kind of reminds me of that quote (Eleanor Roosevelt, I believe), "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Amen. Joan Bostic (42, female, not a victim) ------------------------------ From: "Christopher Spiller" Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 16:35:15 PST Subject: the_dojang: Conditioning >>Chris, in years past some people would "condition" their hands by >>hitting things like sand and makiwara boards. >>We now know that this was not a very smart thing to do. Arlene said: >One of the greatest long term benefits in studying martial arts for a > >woman in her middle age years is that it is an excellent way to >toughen >your body. When we practice Hapkido we fling our entire >bodies onto a mat >for 2 hours straight and this makes the whole body >tougher and able to >take a fall. This has given me the confidence to >know that when I am 70 or >80 or beyond that I won't be as likely to >break a hip or arm because I >have not only trained on how to fall, >but also how to take the impact of a >fall. >This principle applies to my hands as well. I don't do conditioning >like >the iron fist guys, but I do 1000 hard punches on a bag >barehanded every >week and occasional light striking of a carpet >covered board. If this will >lead to stiffness and arthritis later I'd >rather have that than give up >the extra hand and wrist strength I >have gained through conditioning. Most >of the elderly people I know >have stiffness and arthritis in their hands >and they don't do hand >strike conditioning - at least I'll have extra >strength, focus and >confidence in the use of my hands in addition to the >inevitable >arthritis that comes with age.. I think Arlene makes some excellent points. I train with a gentlemen in his 50s. Before Taekwon-Do he did Judo and has told me about the constant breakfalls. I am not jealous. In Taekwon-Do he does conditioning of the hands amd feet on a regular basis for several years now (I'd guess at least five if not more). The results? Being able to do a 4 board free-standing break with a knife hand. Never complained about sore or stiff hands and if he has them you'd never know it. He's definitely one person I'd never want to meet in a dark alley - and I'm younger, faster, smarter, and better looking ;) . General Choi is a big proponent of conditioning the attacking and blocking tools as are Grand Master Sereff, Master Robert Wheatly, Master Mel Steiner, and others in the USTF/ITF. Hee Il Cho certainly does quite a bit of conditioning (see his last few covers on TKD Times). No one is denying that conditioning can lead to problems. Then again, so can sparring, flying kicks, etc. Martial arts seem to be inherently risky (to me) it's just that the benefits outweigh the risks. Taekwon, Chris ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: jgriffin@netcom.com Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 20:50:04 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: martial arts, SD and politics Like another poster mentioned, I too witnessed this topic boil out of control on another list. Before long, flames were flying back and forth under a number of misleading topic headers. The subject "Teaching Styles" for example had one post relevant to teaching styles and quite a large number or anti-man, anti-woman, anti- whatevertheheck rants. Could I beg a favor? If you absolutely must discuss feminism on this MA list, could you *please* try to contain this discussion under one topic header? That way those of us who don't care one way or another about the topic can get away with ignoring just one thread. Thanks in advance. By the way, Laura - I am absolutely not blaming you for the way the threads on the other list spiraled out of control. I hope you don't take this post as any sort of flame - it isn't intended to be. On 22 Feb 00, at 15:39, Laura Kamienski wrote: Jim Griffin jgriffin@netcom.com http://members.tripod.com/index.htm ------------------------------ From: "tink73" Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 21:25:05 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Actual Tourney Accounts A couple of accounts I would like to pass on. Both of these occurred at the Kansas State USTU Tournament on 19 February 00. I was the center referee for the kids, ages 8 to 12 or something like that...they were kids. The first occurrence was the finest example of "Indomitable Spirit" I have seen in a child. Both competitors were 10 years of age and Blue Belts. The one girl stood about 5' tall probably 105-110 lbs. Her opponent stood about 3' nothing and probably 60 lbs. This little girl, outmatched on height, weight and reach, pressed her attack for the full two minutes. She continued to fight her way inside her opponent and continued to through as many kicks and punches as she could to keep the much bigger girl off balance. Not once did she stop or back up, even when knocked down. She kept pressing her attack against the much bigger girl. At the end, I congratulated her on her spirit and her abilities, then told her that she will make a fine black belt and to keep on her path. Her coach was standing near and nodded. The second was a match between two Junior Black Belts, again age 10 and in my ring. It seemed to be an even match as far as height. One girl was very thin, however, but a very fine sparer with beautiful techniques. Being outweighed by her opponent, the thinner girl got knocked down a couple of times. The first time was nothing and she got back up and continued. The second time she appeared to have landed on her tail bone as she held it when she got up. I stopped the match, called the doctor over, and she said she could continue. The next time she got knocked down she fell on her wrist and injured it. She said she couldn't move it. The doctor looked at it for a while and began to splint it with her arm pads temporarily. Her parents were there telling her she needed to continue and her wrist would be ok. She suddenly said she could move her hand and got back up and continued. Within the next 10 seconds she got her wrist hit with a kick and she backed off in pain. I called the doctor over again, her coach was there, and I was going to call the match when her parents said to wait. They took her to the doctors station where her dad proceeded to wrap her wrist in tape. They managed to get her back to the ring in the allotted one minute. The match began and again within 10 seconds she was in a great deal of pain again. Once again the doctor was called over. She was in terrible pain and crying. I told her I could not keep stopping the match for her and I was going to call it at that point. Her parents came over immediately as did her coach. Her parents, particularly her dad told her to finish the match and to use reverse side kicks so she wouldn't have to use her hands. This from her dad who is a red belt, 1st Gup I believe. He refused to let her back out no matter how much pain she was in. The doctor explained to him what the results would be if she had a fracture and it got hit again. He told the dad that surgery would be required resulting in plates, screws and pins. It did not phase her dad. He asked her if she could wiggle her fingers and she did. I told him that meant nothing since we can wiggle our fingers with breaks. He refused to let her quit no matter what. Her coach tried talking him out of it as well to no avail. Finally, someone, I think her coach, broke through to her mom and convinced her it was not necessary to continue especially since her daughter had already qualified for the Nationals with second place. Her dad still wasn't convinced and insisted she get back out and spar. Finally after about 4 or 5 attempts by her mother, and the doctor, myself, and her coach all talking at him, he finally agreed and let his daughter conceded the match. This is an example of outright stupidity, foolishness, and selfishness. What price is worth a medallion or trophy? How much of your child's life and possible career are you willing to risk for a hunk of metal or piece of plastic? This little girl has a promising career in the martial arts, yet her dad was willing to risk it all for his own personal satisfaction. Wake up trophy seekers. That's not what martial arts is about. Finally, a third event in the ring opposite mine, at the same time as the little girl with the injured wrist, two ADULT black belts got into a brawl which involved spectators, ref, and judges all jumping in to break it up. When I looked up all I saw was a huge pile of people in the center of the ring. One coach and competitor were purposely goading the other in an attempt to make him lose his cool and get disqualified. In the end, both were disqualified. The instigator, had it not been for the other folks separating them, would have been seriously injured if not hospitalized as his opponent is far bigger, older, and far more adept at martial arts and winning (he was on top of the instigator beating his face when they were broken up). Here is an example of unsportsman-like conduct at its finest. A true example of immaturity, lack of courtesy for the art and for other martial artists, severe lack of integrity, and no self control at all. This is DEFINITELY NOT what the martial arts are about. If you can't handle yourself with dignity and humility: Get out. The One and Only... Tink ------------------------------ From: "John Groff" Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 19:39:08 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Women's SD (Laura's Post) Laura wrote: [several paragraphs cut....]>>"But more importantly is the fact that men simply cannot intuitively understand the socialization process that women undergo. It is this very understanding which can best help women to learn SD. All the techniques in the world won't help you if you're not willing or able to use them.">> A gutsy, thought-provoking post. I think that there are men with the best intentions who can and do understand. But conveying to a woman (or any person who is a stranger of sorts) the depth of ones understanding about how ~their~ position is perceived is difficult if not impossible--especially if she's been done wrong before, and developed cautious discrimination as a defensive mechanism--in which case a gal instructor might actually be the only way to get through. Not sexist, just an acknowledgement of a protective psychological state some people have. In other words folks, If she doesn't feel she can trust you, is she gonna learn from you? Laura Wrote: >>"Are we confusing helping victims with teaching self defense? I don't think so. I think that for women, they are inseparable. We are confronted with assault every day, both physical and verbal. I can't pick up a magazine or turn on the television without seeing assaults on women. I can't leave my house without experiencing some cat call or demeaning remark during my day. Most of us are taught to ignore these attacks and are even encouraged to construe them as somehow flattering. And in too many cases, we do. Verbal assault is assault! It is where most physical assaults begin for women. We need to begin SD training at that point. That is a feminist approach to SD IMO.">> In my experience, making students aware of the "victim culture" is the first step in getting them to resist the nasty things that go along with it. With sisters in some cultures, it can sometimes be tough. I went to college in Utah, a state where many women are actually taught that it is admirable to be a "doormat". Many women were so insulated from the "real world", that they didn't know how to deal with comments, unwanted physical contact, etc. The immediate reaction was to freeze up with a smile, and let the jerk do whatever--a "shock" reaction. When I'd ask them what it was that kept them from saying "keep your damn hands to yourself", or "Drop Dead", they'd just huddle there, ashamed and terrified, and moan "I don't know!" But I found out. They had Never Been Taught that they had the right--the duty, for their own sanity, to stand up for themselves. It felt wrong. They EXPECTED all guys to be complete gentlemen in accordance with the myths they had been taught, and when one wouldn't live up to that ideal, these gals had no idea how to react. Calling some women's floor bull-sessions about personal space, saying "no", screaming, getting angry, fingers in eyes, etc., and my personally aggressively confronting the worst of the guys in public where an entire audience of innocent bystanders could hear (with my railroad-conductor-daughter-of-two-bus-drivers-mouth) ended most of the problems. Most of the girls who were in my building years ago are in happy marriages now. But I always wonder....if they have daughters, will they make the same mistake and cultivate useless passivity for the sake of making a man feel "manly" (I will never get that one), or overreact and fill them with too much paranoid & needless fear, or will these ladies manage to somehow temper vigilance and wisdom with self reliance and occassional necessary surliness? I know how I'm going to guide our daughter. Chaney Hardman ------------------------------ From: "John Groff" Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 19:46:52 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Infalliable Monk? Bunk. "With all due respect sir, my Sifu, thousands of Shaolin monks over thousands of years cannot be wrong." They CAN'T??! Why Not??! People though the sun went around the earth for thousands of years! Wronggg. People thought that racial characteristics had something to do with intelligence, or that you could read someone's personality via the bumps on their head. Wronggg. People though we'd never fly, that women had no souls, that letting blood could cure everything, that Jim Jones had good intentions (o.k., so that last one's recent--you get the picture). . . You guessed it. all Wronggg! Nobody and Nothing is infalliable. Your Sifu should tell you this if you ask. Chaney ------------------------------ From: Laura Kamienski Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 23:31:40 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: all women dojangs etc. etc. > From: sarah@home-school.com (Sarah Pride) > Hey Laura, hey Cliff, > Each of you has some good points here, from different views and experiences of different women in > martial arts classes. Cliff apparently lives in a small-town community where women or anyone do _not_ live > in constant fear. Hi Sarah, I happen to live in a very small town. I think you bring up a point here which is worth mentioning. Women are, in fact, more likely to be attacked by someone they know (a loved one perhaps) than a stranger. The size of the area where you live is irrelevant. The statistics for violence against women in small town areas is as staggering, if not more so, than it is for metropolitan areas. I honestly felt safer when I lived in inner city Pittsburgh 10 years ago than I do here. College campuses are also small communities. There are an astounding number of colleges in the U.S. with 50% rape statistics. Most of them hold at the rate that 1 in 3 women will experience rape or sexual assault during their time there. Typically, that's only a four year period. > I myself have never in my entire life been in fear of assault from a man. That's encouraging. I'm wondering... what constitutes assault in your or others' opinion? For example, would the friend of a 12 year old's father grabbing and fondling her breast at a dinner party be considered assault? How would you recommend training that 12 year old girl to defend herself if you think it is assault? How about if her parents scold her for crying about it and tell her to laugh it off like 'a good sport'? Is being groped on a subway or at a crowded social function assault? How about verbal assault...cat calling, demeaning remarks etc., do they count as assault? I'm not being flip or directing these questions at you Sarah. Perhaps defining what people consider assault would be useful here. In fact, I talk to so many women who honestly believe these actions aren't acts of assault. Many blame themselves for somehow bringing it on, like my friend did, and still does, for the Bill Wallace incident. She has a third degree bb btw. > Nobody should make general statements about any group of people in general, because honestly, a lot of the > time the general statements only apply to a small portion of the group. I don't think it is a small portion. All of the statistical data I've encountered supports the conclusions I've drawn. I do think I have been very careful to say 'many' and not to say 'all' or 'most'. Exceptions are always the rule in any case. I agree with you that sweeping generalizations can be dangerous. However, generalizations are a necessary part of discussion and debate, when they are grounded. >Also, I don't think Cliff's comments were flames at all. They seemed intelligent and full of legitimate >concerns about what Laura has posted. I agree, which is why I responded to him....and to you. Note, I said he was 'bordering' on flame. I do try to choose my words carefully. Though not always successfully. ;^) > I go to a coed martial-arts school, and got my yellow belt about a month ago (8th gup I think). Never once > have I felt uncomfortable around the male students, or intimidated by anything other than that they are >(mostly) much bigger than me! Cool! Very cool! :^) IMO of course. I attend a co-ed dodging as well. > However, quite a large group of women have no self-confidence whatsoever. It is of these women that Laura > >was speaking. These women are the 'easy targets' for the bad guys, because they have no feeling of their own >self-worth (I hate that word, but it is appropriate). For these women in particular, and all women at least a > little bit, having a positive atmosphere geared specifically towards them would be extremely helpful. Yes a _large_ group. :^) It is also important to be aware that many of the same issues do carry over for women who have trained for a long time in an ma. or sd. I pointed to a few examples of women I know in my own dojang and I've met and spoken with others at sd classes and on the internet too. I think you're very lucky to be in the atmosphere you're in. I feel lucky at my dojang. Though there is no outward evidence of machismo at my school, there are lots of hero types who think they need to take it easy on the women. ;^) They openly admit this. I wouldn't train at a school where I felt uncomfortable. My instructor sets the tone. It's a good one. > That is why the all-female dojos. It's not about women being better than men or having more rights, it's >about a lot of women having trouble dealing with men in intense situations without building their confidence > first. We're more emotional-type critters, different from you guys. So we often need different handling. :) > That's all. Different, not better or worse. More emotional, hmmmm....nah...just socialized to show it more easily, me thinks. But I agree with you that it is the differences in socialization that make this debate a necessary one in the m.a. community. At the end of June, I will be attending a training camp in West Virginia. This camp will be attended by women martial artists and SD instructors and students only. I can't wait to train in that atmosphere. I'm sure I will encounter many, many women with the same self confidence and assurance you seem to have acquired. I am very excited about it. In fact, speaking of supportive men, my instructor has agreed to pay half of the expenses for me to go. :^) > All that aside, I can now talk about helpful techniques for use in women's SD classes. :) I think it would > be very interesting to have a sort of "exchange" program with a "normal" dojo nearby, so some of the more > confident women could see what it's like to be in a "normal" class for a couple of weeks. Of course the > exchange could only be women from each dojo, but still it would make for a fascinating thing to try. Great idea! I think exchanges are always good. I'm all for it. This is the kind of dialog I find inspiring and worthwhile. Speaking of exchanges, I also think that women martial artists should make a point or attending beginner SD classes regularly. Sometimes we forget or are unaware of how hard it is for many women to even hit something. Tonight I was talking with a fellow female bb. She told me that 10 years ago she enrolled at our school to learn to be more aggressive and to be able to fight back. She says she doesn't feel that she has made much progress, but that our talks have been very inspirational and helpful for her. My instructor told me that when she started, it took him years to get her to even ki-hap. She also told me that the reason she enrolled her daughter in m.a. at a young age was to help her avoid being like she was. When this woman finally 'lets go', she is going to be a force to be reckoned with. She has the skill, now all she needs is the confidence. :^) Thanks for your post Sarah! Laura - -- lkamiens@ptd.net lkamnski@bucknell.edu http://home.switchboard.com/LKamienski ____________________________________________________ "I am not an angry girl. But it seems I've got everyone fooled. Every time I say something they find hard to hear, they chalk it up to my anger and never to their own fear." Ani DiFranco ____________________________________________________ ------------------------------ From: "John Groff" Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 20:42:29 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Verbal Tang Soo Do! Cliff Wrote: >>"I can't pick up a magazine or newspaper, look at TV or listen to radio, where I don't hear or see men being blasted - so perhaps it's our point of reference.">> It is. People naturally tend to focus on things which they feel threatens them or their position. It's ol' Ma Nature's defensive mechanism for survival kicking in. Thus many women feel threatened and peeved because most media images are nothing like us and often cater to a male audience (anyone hear comedian Jerry Lewis's thoughts on women last week?)--that gals are all weak, (over)emotional, ditzy, can't handle a wrench, etc. Many men suffer fallout from lame steryotypes as well, and likewise feel uncomfortable at even the mention of rape--they love their own family members too much to ever consider doing such a thing to anyone else, and feel that one rotten apple unfairly makes the whole barrel smell bad. Cliff wanted to know, >>"How do you train for "verbal assault" anyway?" >> Uh gee Cliff, since you asked, I use two ancient methods handed down in secrecy, generation to generation, by female transportation workers. Here, I shall reveal these ancient ways for the first time ever!! 1. Yell back. Be as vulgar as you want. Be creative, original, even! And make sure to end whatever you say with, ". . .You couldn't handle me!" A variation which works especially well on older man is "I'd give you a heart attack...". With strangers in public, don't smile when you say these things--look angry! But for best results, LOOK CRAZY. Don't respond to anything else the individual/group does. Walk your way or do your thing without any further response AT ALL. Why does this work? Most men who overuse profanity in their daily speach for some reason find this a big turn-off in women. The woman who asserts herself in the same way he does goes against his expectations of "what a woman should be", passive and scared, and victim. About 80% of the time, you'll be met by shocked silence, or nervous giggling from the guy(s). 2. This one is chancier. Instead of shock, it assumes the yeller may have some sense of conscience or shame, and thus works best when employed in a public and crowded place. "Hey! do you talk to your ma like that at home?!!", "Did your mother teach you how to act like that (or "to say those words")?!!", "You'll never get a date by doing THAT!!" Shaking your head and rolling your eyes, the body language way of expressing sarcasm, works well in tandem with this method. You can also give a little smile, even a laugh to convey how ridiculous you find such conduct. No further response is needed after you say this. Nobody will have any sympathy for any of these guys, and in the street (in my experience), people sometimes even join in to add their feelings and ridicule their crassness in a public place. 3. I wouldn't reccommend anyone but a real hard-boiled gal with a mind for quick, funny and insulting comebacks try this third method (somehow I get by regardless). Here it is. I've used it twice with work gangs, with great results. When the whistling and hooting starts, take off your cap, bow with a flourish, and go into an insulting comedy monologue. "Thank you, thank you. It's so nice to be here in San Berdoo with all of my adoring fans. Bob, I see your a** is still being fumigated. Joe, how's the testicular scrofula doing? Say, how many track men does it take to ***** a lady conductor? None--we don't sleep with guys who don't bath." And for some reason, after this, they don't holler and make cat noises when I go by anymore, they wave and smile. Go figure. Chaney ------------------------------ From: "Sam Stratton" Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 21:14:12 PST Subject: the_dojang: Re:Was Entrance interviews? Now :no free rides The students who travel to Korea volunteer and pay their own way (the airfare alone is quite impressive, not to mention hotel, although sometimes they can "bum a room" with the masters friends/relations) The students are usually young and want to train with Koreans, which our travelers say is an awesome and somewhat humbling experience. >><< Our school is priced slightly higher than average but we have two >>WTF/Kukkiwon certified grandmasters at our school that teach and >> >>observe and >>take a few students to train in Korea once or twice a year. >> >Do the grandmasters take the students to Korea gratis or do the >students >have >to pay for the trip in addition to the higher than average fees they >pay >because the grandmasters take students to Korea? >Sally >cbaughn@aol.com Sam "too po' to go" Stratton WTF 1st dan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Gold Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 01:50:51 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Re: martial arts, SD and politics At 03:39 PM 2/22/00 -0800, you wrote: >From: Laura Kamienski >Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 16:51:45 -0500 >Subject: the_dojang: martial arts, SD and politics > >With regard to Vic's post, I feel compelled to point out martial arts by >its very definition, inception and conception are political. War is The term is. Comparing punch/kick, or throwing martial arts to defacto martial arts of the past is out of context. See below: >political and the history of martial arts is deeply rooted in war. There Most of the martial arts you see to day come from subjects, or peasants of feudal regime's or powers that used armys, horses, ranged weapons, spears, ect. Not punches and kicks or stylised forms. Martial arts like hsing-i may use ideas behind its techniques centering around pole or spear movements. The peng jing in yang taiji was supposed to have been based on the support needed to utilize the spear in training/combat. However, the ideas are dissimilar. Politics is the management of people(s) [minds] not resources. Business comes from the idea of mutal benefit. Middle management in business is used to assure that people and resources are not wasted. When you use a principle of business in politics, you eliminate the middleman and thus the politicians (blood sucking insects). When you eliminate the middleman in war you eliminate the army, its logistics and its mechanization. When you eliminate the government, you eliminate the army. No army, no politicians, no government. No martial. This is the external. Whats left is some "spritual" idea which can thusly be called martial art's. However the context is of the values, ideas, arts, methods of vagabonds, criminal societys, outcasts, licked people or rice farmers with farming implements as weapons. Which is whom the largest body of "martial arts" are coming from in out modern world. Not the ideas and methods and values of warlords, governments, armys as the delivery system of the states power and influence launched from horses, chariots, spears and ranged weapons,ect. Archetypicly, the firearm represents a means to project ones power and influence. Metaforiclly, the defense of martial arts techniques against that superior firepower is suicide by definition. Wei liao-tzu said that "..martial is the external and the civil internal". Thus in the context of war arts, martial arts should therefore be called civil arts. In as much as they are "internal", not nessessarily as the expression of civililsed people. To wage war minimally you need logistics and mechanisation. Martial arts deals with none of these ideas. What you have left over is "a good idea". In MA your several levels below middle management and in application your methods produce results only relevant to an individual defending his or herself WITHIN the laws and external standards of the true "martial" system. >is no separating the two. The idea of war as an extension of politics (in the west) is still fairly recent. Malthusian paradigms combined with hegelian dialect can be blamed for this. If you make a problem (war) you can create the solution (sending 18-30 year olds to fight) which is an effective means of population control. And if you can inflict "war" on an enemy, you set up the foundation to attack his geometric population growth with war which begats famine (from diverted resources) which begats disease, which reduces the geometric to a arithmetic depletion and the artithmetic economy to exponentional (geometric) levels of depletion. Nowadays, its pretty much a given that conventional war is primitive and obsolete. Whats left is business, and economics. Still, a much more advanced expression of martial ideas than puches, kicks, forms and antiquated weapons training. >SD for women is also very political. It has been an integral part of the >women's movement since it's inception. Since there has been a covert and >overt war waged against women for centuries, the feminist movement has >incorporated SD into its arsenal of defense. Therefore, I don't think >there is any possibility of separating the two here either. A moot point outside the root of "inequality" of women, the division of labor which is in essense the fault of agriculture, which is an issue of sociology and economics. Not political or militaristic. Marx and engles would be in agreement because you didnt start seeing politics till around the fuedal/serf levels. Men and women are born equal. Where does this inequality come from? Is it an issue of martial arts or civility? Methinks its more to do about the physical and mental fortitude, or lack thereof, of the hunter/gathers. Who now turned to the socio-politics of men-hunt/women-grind-grain/weave-clothes Men-come-back-with-only-roadkill and two villages fight over scraps of meat.... Hmmm, maybe it is a martial arts issue? :)> Not as simplistic and utopian as ice fishing and hunting and trading. Or pillage. I am only 2 or 3 generation's from french-canada from where we find the micmac and 3 or 4 generation from the artic, domain of the eskimos. Both survive on hunting and collecting of plant foods. The micmac, were the first native's to encounter europeans, in this case norse vikings. They had an economy based on trade, being middlement in between two opposing forces: The indians of the interior of north america the european fur traders. But they also had an economy on the resources of the sea and its inlets. No agriculture here. No inequality of women. Interestingly enough, Micmac has turkic elements not suprising enough because the micmac were expert canoeists and sea navigators(landbridge my butt). Turkic and mongol languages dont even have words for man or woman technically. On the flip side of the argument, Many mongol and hun languages have a dualistic double meaning. The word for trading means something like to wage war or to lie. In mongolia, we were known as the ordos. The same characters Frank herbert was studying as a basis for his incidious trader race of the ice planet. We harried Cathay till the great wall was built to shut us out (for good reason). We were the people even Atillila the hun where scared of. The norse vikings apparently.... Dare I mention H.P Lovecraft..... So yes, perhaps I have a BIT of a different definion of martial arts. Not a semantical argument but definitly contextual. Turiyan "blame it on the farmers" gold ------------------------------ From: "Karel van der Walt" Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 08:50:33 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: Divorce (and Martial Arts) I offer the following advice (after my own experience): Divorce poses a major threat to your dignity. Do whatever is necessary to retain/recover your dignity. Measure yourself by who you are and no by what you have or do not have. (I ended up with a table, bed and Rottweiler OK a fridge too) I had my dog and a room in a commune (having owned a 5 bedroom house) and trained 6 times a week for a year. It took 8 months from when i received the summons to settlement. It takes time to heal and grant yourself that time - professional counciling can shorten the time but it still takes time. Accept that there will be scars but you determine wether they are a disfigurement. After three year (I guess) none of the detail can be recalled anymore - I will commit again this year. Good luck and peace k ------------------------------ From: Andrew Pratt Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 16:14:45 +0900 Subject: the_dojang: weapons in TKD Someone asked about weapons in TKD (apologies for forgetting your name). I have seen photographs in magazines over the years that suggested ITF TKD and Tang Soo Do had weapons, but have had trouble confirming this from manuals. I have an ITF TKD manual out of Singapore. It is dated mid 70s. It contains several sections on weapons including defences against sword and pistols (not always plausible: I certainly would not recommend a flying side kick against someone with sword at ready). I think there were also some staff work. The nature of the techniques suggest that DEFENCES against weapons were being taught, not weapon TECHNIQUES as such. Hope that helps, Andrew ------------------------------ From: Donnla Nic Gearailt Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 10:11:10 +0000 Subject: the_dojang: Re:women and SD Just thought I'd add my 2c to the women and self-defense thread. A few years ago, I did a self-defense course that was directed at women only. The man who ran it (an ex world champion thai boxer) explained that women tended to be attacked in different ways to men and so the techniques he was going to teach us differed from what he would teach men. For example, he said that an attacker (male or female) will try to grab a woman by the throat, or the hair, whereas a man is more likely to be punched in the face. What surprised me was, about half the students in the class didn't even know how to form a fist in order to punch (I knew how to do this from school volleyball practice!). There was also considerable emphasis on being aggressive rather than showing fear (eg. yelling loudly rather than screaming). So I would agree, that it makes sense to have self defense classes for men and women separately, concentrating on the types of attack both are likely to encounter. In fact, it was this class that led me to take up taekwondo later on, as I realised that I quite enjoyed learning this stuff :-). Donnla. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Donnla Nic Gearailt Computer Laboratory, New Museums Site, Graduate Student Pembroke St., Cambridge CB2 3QG, U.K. tel: +44-1223-334619 http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~dbn20/ ------------------------------ From: "Vaught, Clifford (CLF N6Y2K8)" Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 08:08:27 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #120 Okay - I guess I should have known that I was chasing bait. Imagine that - confusing a solicitation for opinions and viewpoints only to find I was about to be drawn into an incindiary debate with a well-prepared professional. Laura - karate and the martial arts are not political - people are. I don't see how you can possibly state that the two are hopelessly intertwined - I don't recall our instructor ever once debating the pros and cons of presidential candidates while we were warming up. And you have introduced a topic in this forum with the expressed purpose of distributing your personal political views. You considered my reference to your background and where you were from as "approaching flame" - yet no less than 4 times you personalized your criticism of my point of view as me not knowing anything. I had a response prepared that I slept on, thankfully, because I will not dissect your 3 posts. It would take too much time and space, and quite frankly, "a person convinced against their will is of the same opinion still." It would benefit no one. But to set the record straight - I'm 41, I have 4 children, been married coming up on 12 years, completed a Navy career and have trained 8 years in martial arts. My children are all athletes, all excel at school, all apparently well-adjusted - the boys are both Dans. My girls are both in college where they are doing wonderfully. I didn't need to read any of the books on your list to get those results. I attribute our success to a Christian-based home life and world view, which, by the way, is in complete opposition to your personal political views. I don't live in a particularly small town as over 2 million people live in the Tidewater Virginia area - aside from the fact that Navy moves put my family in San Diego, Los Angeles, South Jersey, and Philadelphia. I have 2 degrees and am quite well-read, thank you very much. I think I am qualified to address the issues as I have and if there was a "flame", re-read your first reply to me and see if you can find it. I believe Sarah has perhaps done the issue the best showing uncanny wisdom at her young age. Stick to the arts - if you don't think any women can benefit from male instructors, that's YOUR OPINION. Mine is different and I have NO hidden agenda. I will not comment on this thread again. Soo Bahk!! Cliff Vaught ------------------------------ From: "Lasich, Mark D." Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 08:17:47 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Rotation Teaching? I have recently been notified by my school owner that we are to begin 'rotation teaching' - Now, although I feel old, I don't have world-wide experience on *the best MA* teaching techniques, so I don't want to pre-judge. Let me explain: In our traditional 9 Gup system we are to follow this schedule: - - Classes will consist of only 3 ranks at a time: White-Orange-Yellow, Camo-Green-Purple, and Blue-Brown-Red - - The calendar year is broken into 6 2-month segments Jan-Feb, Mar-Apr, etc..... - - Teaching is to be as follows: Jan-Feb: Teach ONLY White, Camo and Blue material to the appropriate classes Mar-Apr: Teach ONLY Orange, Green and Brown material May-Jun: Teach ONLY Yellow, Purple and Red material Regardless of rank (in a specific class), you will be taught, and expected to test on the material of the rotation - NOT THE MATERIAL OF YOUR RANK! This is across the board - forms, one-steps, sparring, board breaks, self-defense, etc. So, we could have a brand new white belt, starting in May, who would begin learning the YELLOW belt material, along with the rest of their class! I think you can follow the pattern here. The "benefits", as I am told, are that material retention is better, and it is 'easier' for the instructors..... My question is: Does anyone have experience with this? What are the pros, cons, etc.....As I mentioned, I don't want to pre-judge, but after almost 20 years in the (korean) MAs, this strikes hard and deep at what I have come to believe in and enjoy (start with basics, and build from there.....). HELP, any advice that can help me understand this would be GREATLY appreciated. Mark.Lasich@alcoa.com ATA TKD ------------------------------ From: Kim Jones Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 05:59:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Hodge-podge of this n' that... Can I kick the dead horse one last time? Please? I promise it will be swift. =) About the issue of women's self-defense...it's touchy. However, I've gotten some really good advice from various instructors, whether it be mine or someone else's. Now, that advice can only help you so much. Instinct is what guides your actions; a desire to remain alive and unharmed for the most part is what guides you to carrying through and doing what is necessary to protect yourself. Sometimes though, we don't listen to the voices in our heads. I don't like mentioning this, but hell, why not? October was a bad month for me. I started off the month by filing a sexual assault report (pertaining to an incident that happened back in September), and the very next day broke my toe. Now, going back to the sexual assault, had something bigger not gone down at school, I would have NEVER gone to CID and reported what happened. Shame and insecurity basically prevented me from going earlier. I knew what happened was wrong, but I felt so bad for the fact that I let it happen and didn't do a thing to stop it. I felt really bad when I was called to the Main Office and was asked if I knew anything about a particular person who was making a nuisance of himself by being overly zealous in his flirting and crossing that thin line...I felt even worse when my parents were contacted and had a CID investigator at my doorstep. To cut out a bunch of stuff and keep this post short, my statement was eventually filtered out of the investigation on the grounds of consent. My story matched up with my attacker's perfectly, but the grounds of consent killed getting him deported out of country. Such is life. That was a lesson in itself, and I've learned and grown from that experience. Sometimes experience is the best teacher, but sometimes someone who's been through something like that or even someone who wants to prevent it can be the better teacher in events like this. 'NUFF SAID! I kicked the dead horse for the last time. Moving on. Okay, I'm testing in April for sure at Kukkiwon. An interesting tidbit came out today in class. Now, if anybody read the post I made a while back (couple weeks to a month ago), Kukkiwon made a slight change in their test requirements for cho-dan. Well, after April 8, 2000 they're using a system of points to tabulate whether or not you pass. Like if you dont' do the basic movements (or botch), that's points off, if you don't break, same thing, yadi ya ya. As far as how many points you have to have to pass, I'm not sure, but the honchos at Kukkiwon know. At any rate, it will be interesting going there and testing under the new system they set up. I will definitely get a video (or get my dad to film) of my testing, and if I can get the equipment, maybe i'll post it on my website. Basically, cut and dried, this is what they're looking for at KKW: - Basic movements moving back and forth (or forwards and backwards - there is a difference) - Basic kicks - Two forms called out randomly (1-8, but they most likely will NOT call Taegeuk 6 or 8 due to lack of space) - Sparring two people (for about 15 seconds each) - Breaking (how many and what technique, I don't know but will try and find out soon) ....and they call eveyrthing out in Hangul, I migth add. Well, that's all for now. That's about 1,000 won worth of opinion and fact mixed in. Good night. - ===== ~~Kim Jones *ladytimberland@yahoo.com* ICQ: 52828008 AOL: Lady Timberland "I've kept the rain falling down on me all the time." ~Roxette, "The Rain" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: Tkdtiger@aol.com Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 10:24:24 EST Subject: the_dojang: Master Silz Word from Colorado Springs is that Master Silz is alive and doing better than he expected after his surgery. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 07:32:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: women's SD Folks, I requested that the posts be kept short. You aren't doing that. Keep them under 2K for now (good Lord, the largest one here is 8K!). Keep the discussion on martial arts and this can continue on. But no more about who is or is not a victim, why certain people are disadvantaged, when is a flame not a flame, who is qualified to teach and who isn't, etc. This is a martial arts list and more specifically a KMA list. Valid topics; for people with strong legs but rather weak upper bodies what are good defense techniques, or ... for people not used to extremely hard contact what are good ways to introduce that to them, or ways of dealing with confrontation, etc... Got it? Ray Terry ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #121 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry, CA Taekwondo, and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.