From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #122 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Wed, 23 Feb 2000 Vol 07 : Num 122 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: ATA question the_dojang: Re: Tallest Instructor, top me! the_dojang: Re: martial arts, SD and politics the_dojang: The Men vs. Women Issue the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #121 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #121 the_dojang: re: Victimization quote the_dojang: NOBODY is infallible? the_dojang: re: martial arts, SD and politics the_dojang: re: Women's SD (Laura's post) the_dojang: Long Response to Sexism Thread (you have been warned!) the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #121 the_dojang: Re: martial arts, SD and politics the_dojang: Re:women and SD the_dojang: Re: dojang digest V7 #121 the_dojang: flame the_dojang: re: instinct and SD the_dojang: last issue... ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 785 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry, CA Taekwondo, and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 11:02:26 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: ATA question "As I stated, I am enjoying my studies and have great respect for my instructors, but am simply worried about the ATA organization as a whole. Any comments? Regards, Sam" hi sam! never been in the ATA, but i can tell you about a local USTU sanctioned tourney i went to. tons o' trophies. lotsa stuff for sale out front, from custom t-shirts to a local GM's book. even a statue of a martial artist for sale. money oriented? mmmmaybe. but the tourney was well run. the kids were having fun. the cameraderie was great for young and old. overall, it was good. melinda ChunjiDo http://hometown.aol.com/chunjido/homehtmlindex.html Looking for enlightenment is like looking for a flashlight, when all you need the flashlight for is to find the flashlight. ------------------------------ From: ATATKD@aol.com Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 11:13:53 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Tallest Instructor, top me! In a message dated 2/22/00 4:15:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << >Folks, remember I already said that we are moving on wrt the "my instructor >is bigger than your instructor" thread. No more. Hah. My instructor is 6'4". Beat that. >> I am 6'7" and 308lbs. Seriously. I have only met one person taller than I in my 7.5 years in the ATA. He was 1/2 inch taller !!! Joe ATA Long Island, NY ------------------------------ From: dbuehrer@denver.carl.org Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 09:23:54 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: martial arts, SD and politics Please note, I've rearranged this a little bit. >From: Laura Kamienski > >I welcome sincere, focussed and intelligent opposition to this issue. Please, do not perceive my response as opposition, merely my own opinion. >With regard to Vic's post, I feel compelled to point out martial arts by >its very definition, inception and conception are political. War is >political and the history of martial arts is deeply rooted in war. There >is no separating the two. I disagree. In the past martial arts may well have been rooted in war (though I've heard a few stories that suggest that it was only a means of exercise for some), that doesn't mean that's the way it is, must be, viewed today. For example, at the dojang I attend martial arts is taught to improve the student physically, emotionally, and mentally (and I try to employ lessons learned spiritually). There is no war of us vs them. It's about learning and striving. IMHO martial arts and war are easily separated. >SD for women is also very political. It has been an integral part of the >women's movement since it's inception. Since there has been a covert and >overt war waged against women for centuries, the feminist movement has >incorporated SD into its arsenal of defense. Therefore, I don't think >there is any possibility of separating the two here either. If one chooses to participate in a war, one will end up fighting in a war. IMO as long as you choose perceive the relationship between men and women as a war, it will always be a war. I choose to perceive the relationship between men and women as poorly understood. In general men and women have perceptions and opinions of each other which are inaccurate. In general men and women do not understand each other, nor themselves, want or need. In general men and women do not know how to communicate with each other. By choosing to perceive the relationship between men and women as confused misunderstanding I can work to learn more about women and myself and take responsibility for my actions towards women and strive to create a relationship based on mutual understanding. If I chose to perceive the relationship between men and women as a war, my options would be limited to waging war against women. That is not something that I want to do. >As far as the 'debate' getting out of control. I will not entertain any >flames. The above comments are not meant as flames. Ultimately I believe that the most important relationship is the one that you have with yourself. By studying and practicing martial arts I am learning a *lot* about myself :) I am learning to deal with my frustration and anger. I am learning to appreciate myself when I learn a technique or an aspect of martial arts. By striving to improve my relationship with myself I hope to improve my relationship with others. FWIW, I am not relying solely on martial arts for my relationship skills :) I read books, learn from friends and family, and watch Oprah. IMHO martial arts is a tool. Nothing more, nothing less. Like any tool it can be used many ways. A knife can be used to cut meat, bread, etc. It can be used to spread butter on bread. It can be used to cause someone physical harm. It can be used to scrape paint, pry up nails, dig a hole, etc. A martial art can be used as a weapon in war. It can also be used for physical exercise. It can be used for self defense. It can be used to build confidence. It can be used for monetary gain (though many instructors would argue that ;). How you choose to use martial arts is your prerogative, but I don't recommend that you limit your perception of martial arts as a tool for war. I also highly recommend that you view the relationship between men and women not as a war, but as a relationship that isn't working and needs to be changed. To Life, - -David Buehrer 6th Gup, Hapkido http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3 - -- "Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday ... and all is well." ------------------------------ From: CA&B Skjold Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 10:30:14 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: The Men vs. Women Issue To all Martial Artist discussing this topic; Call me naive but I thought part of our training and philosophy allowed for equality no matter what when in the dojang? I have been taught that no matter who we are outside of martial arts (man-woman, black-white, cop-crook) that all these things did not matter. Whether in Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido, or in the training of self defense. We are all students of our arts not man-woman, black-white, cop-crook, etc. Sincerely, Anne Skjold (8th Gup - Tae Kwon Do) ------------------------------ From: "Chuck Sears" Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 10:49:46 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #121 > > From: "tink73" > Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 21:25:05 -0600 > Subject: the_dojang: Actual Tourney Accounts > > A couple of accounts I would like to pass on. Both of these occurred at the > Kansas State USTU Tournament on 19 February 00. > ...snip... > This is an example of outright stupidity, foolishness, and selfishness. > What price is worth a medallion or trophy? How much of your child's life > and possible career are you willing to risk for a hunk of metal or piece of > plastic? This little girl has a promising career in the martial arts, yet > her dad was willing to risk it all for his own personal satisfaction. Wake > up trophy seekers. That's not what martial arts is about. Amen! The only thing that I would have done differently would be to exercise my authority as the center judge and declare that the student was unable to continue. I did that once, about three years ago. I caught flak from all directions. It was worth it, though, when the student bowed to me and said, "Thank you, sir!" The student did not want to say no to dad, but at the same time, he did not want to continue to spar. > ------------------------------ > > From: "John Groff" > Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 19:46:52 -0800 > Subject: the_dojang: Infalliable Monk? Bunk. > > "With all due respect sir, my Sifu, thousands of Shaolin monks over > thousands of years cannot be wrong." > > They CAN'T??! Why Not??! People though the sun went around the earth for > thousands of years! Wronggg. People thought that racial characteristics > had something to do with intelligence, or that you could read someone's > personality via the bumps on their head. Uh-oh. You mean all those times I've been kicked in the head aren't raising my IQ? > ------------------------------ > > From: "Lasich, Mark D." > Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 08:17:47 -0500 > Subject: the_dojang: Rotation Teaching? > > I have recently been notified by my school owner that we are to begin > 'rotation teaching' - Now, although I feel old, I don't have world-wide > experience on *the best MA* teaching techniques, so I don't want to > pre-judge. Let me explain: > > In our traditional 9 Gup system we are to follow this schedule: > - - Classes will consist of only 3 ranks at a time: White-Orange-Yellow, > Camo-Green-Purple, and Blue-Brown-Red > - - The calendar year is broken into 6 2-month segments Jan-Feb, Mar-Apr, > etc..... > - - Teaching is to be as follows: > Jan-Feb: Teach ONLY White, Camo and Blue material to the appropriate > classes > Mar-Apr: Teach ONLY Orange, Green and Brown material > May-Jun: Teach ONLY Yellow, Purple and Red material > > Regardless of rank (in a specific class), you will be taught, and expected > to test on the material of the rotation - NOT THE MATERIAL OF YOUR RANK! > > This is across the board - forms, one-steps, sparring, board breaks, > self-defense, etc. > > So, we could have a brand new white belt, starting in May, who would begin > learning the YELLOW belt material, along with the rest of their class! > > I think you can follow the pattern here. The "benefits", as I am told, are > that material retention is better, and it is 'easier' for the > instructors..... > > My question is: Does anyone have experience with this? What are the pros, > cons, etc.....As I mentioned, I don't want to pre-judge, but after almost 20 > years in the (korean) MAs, this strikes hard and deep at what I have come to > believe in and enjoy (start with basics, and build from there.....). > IMNSHO, it is a major league mistake. The only reason for doing it is that it is easy for the instructors. Sheer laziness is all it is. Aaaarrrgghhhhh....how did that durn soapbox get under my feet again? ------------------------------ From: "Chuck Sears" Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 10:39:28 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #121 > > From: SecOfDef@aol.com > Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 18:35:09 EST > Subject: the_dojang: ATA Question > > Hello, > > I am new to the art of Taekwondo within the past year and am currently a > member of the ATA (American Taekwondo Association). My school is excellent > and the instructors are top-notch, but I have some concerns about the larger > organization. Specifically, I wonder if the ATA is ultimately focused on > money, not on teaching the art. This seems to be a relatively common > perception on internet newsgroups, and seemed to fit the profile of a recent > ATA closed tournament which I attended. The registration fee was reasonable > (about $35), but there was a lot of ATA merchandise being peddled in the > arena and trophy engraving was a reasonable $3 (but wow, were a lot of > trophies given out!). Perhaps this is the norm across many of the martial > arts, but it did seem to give credibility to the earlier allegations of the > ATA being fixated on money. > > As I stated, I am enjoying my studies and have great respect for my > instructors, but am simply worried about the ATA organization as a whole. > > Any comments? > As an ATA school owner, let me try to answer your question. The ATA is not fixated on money. But let's be realistic - it is a business. And businesses survive by making money. The ATA's overheads are large, but we get a lot of bang for the buck. How many other martial arts organizations have full-time staff dedicated to developing and perfecting a curriculum for advancing beginning students to Black Belt, a curriculum for developing Black Belts into successful instructors and a curriculum for developing instructors into Masters? None that I know of. Let me quote you: "My school is excellent and the instructors are top-notch..." The reason for that is ATA's dedication to excellence. As far as the tournament goes, what you described is a typical tournament. ATA's handling of tournaments is simple. A school owner applies to hold a tournament and schedules it with the regional officers and national headquarters. Once it is approved, the owner pays a sanctioning fee to ATA. That's it. That sanctioning fee covers the headquarters costs of tracking the Top Ten points, competitor elegibilities, etc. There are a lot of trophies given out because there are a lot of divisions. ATA's tournament rules require us to stage competitors as closely as possible in rank, age and size. Anything else, such as t-shirts, souveniers, etc. are all promotional items provided by the tournament host, not the ATA. They have to meet ATA's standards for logo display, etc., but the ATA does not receive a penny from their sales. IMNSHO, the "ATA is money-hungry" theme comes from lack of knowledge and/or sheer jealousy. I have asked people on other newsgroups to explain where they get this idea from, and it usually comes from the fact that they pay someone $20 a month to give them lessons in a garage. When I explain that I charge around $85 a month for lessons, all they can think of is "Wow, that's four times what I pay - you're greedy." They don't stop to think that I have an operational nut of $2500-3000 a month for a nice floor space in a shopping center and that I give a substantial discount for extra members in a family. My school runs in the red almost every month and I work a full-time job during the day to make the difference. I do it because I love what I do. I'm slowly approaching my goal of breaking even, but I'll never get rich in money from teaching Taekwondo. I'm already rich in satisfaction every time I see the light go on behind a student's eyes as he or she realizes "Hey, I *can* do this! I can be successful!" or when a parent comes to me and tells me what a difference my teaching staff and I have made in their child's life. In respect to Mr. Terry's request for shorter posts (oops... sorry, sir - I'll try to do better), I'll get off my soapbox now :-) If you would like to continue the discussion via e-mail, please contact me at CSEARS@BIGFOOT.COM ------------------------------ From: Laura Kamienski Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 11:54:55 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: re: Victimization quote From: Joan Bostic Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 18:11:05 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Victimization <> Joan Bostic (42, female, not a victim) I like this quote too. Glad you're aware and not consenting either. Laura - -- lkamiens@ptd.net lkamnski@bucknell.edu http://home.switchboard.com/LKamienski ____________________________________________________ "I am not an angry girl. But it seems I've got everyone fooled. Every time I say something they find hard to hear, they chalk it up to my anger and never to their own fear." Ani DiFranco ____________________________________________________ ------------------------------ From: "Christopher Spiller" Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 08:50:29 PST Subject: the_dojang: NOBODY is infallible? >Nobody and Nothing is infalliable. Your Sifu should tell you this >if you >ask. >Chaney Uh, you do realize that you are engaging in exactly what you deny others: stating an infallible truth. If no one is infallible then neither is the above remark. Sorry. It can't be true that there is no truth. Part of the Martial Arts is philosophy, that is "the love of wisdom." Taekwon, Chris "Every experience of beauty points to infinity." Hans Urs von Balthasar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Laura Kamienski Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 11:58:47 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: re: martial arts, SD and politics From: jgriffin@netcom.com Jim wrote: >>Could I beg a favor? If you absolutely must discuss feminism on this MA list, could you *please* try to contain this discussion under one topic header? >> Good idea...though there are a couple going now. I'll be conscious of it. Hope all will do the same. Also it's good to remember to change the heading, as it defaults to the digest number. This alone would be helpful in any case. >>By the way, Laura - I am absolutely not blaming you for the way the threads on the other list spiraled out of control. I hope you don't take this post as any sort of flame - it isn't intended to be.<< Thanks for saying that Jim. Don't even see a sign of a spark in your post. :^) Laura - -- lkamiens@ptd.net lkamnski@bucknell.edu http://home.switchboard.com/LKamienski ____________________________________________________ "I am not an angry girl. But it seems I've got everyone fooled. Every time I say something they find hard to hear, they chalk it up to my anger and never to their own fear." Ani DiFranco ____________________________________________________ ------------------------------ From: Laura Kamienski Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 12:04:55 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: re: Women's SD (Laura's post) Chaney Hardman wrote: <> What an eloquent post. Thanks so much for sharing these insights with me. You state things with a unique clarity. I'm going to save this one. I do think there are a lot of really great men out there whose hearts are in the absolute write place. In my experience, those men are looking to women for guidance and/or turning these classes over to women because they understand that they can't really empathize. :^) Laura - -- lkamiens@ptd.net lkamnski@bucknell.edu http://home.switchboard.com/LKamienski ____________________________________________________ "I am not an angry girl. But it seems I've got everyone fooled. Every time I say something they find hard to hear, they chalk it up to my anger and never to their own fear." Ani DiFranco ____________________________________________________ ------------------------------ From: jsegovia@mindspring.com Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 12:01:43 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Long Response to Sexism Thread (you have been warned!) I recently participated in a similar thread on another martial arts list but I dropped out when I read how one of the participants had characterized the thread to a friend. She made it seem she was being bullied, that she was the only one with the right point of view and she was being attacked by all for it. At that point I dropped the thread for two reasons. One, I truly felt bad for contributing to an environment in which this person felt bullied. But two, I found it hypocritical for a person to preach strength and standing up for truth and against the victimization of women, and then make herself a victim by portraying honest disagreement as bullying, and reasonably expressed disagreement as flames. One of the things many westerners don't understand about the idea of yin/yang um/yang is that not only does it represent duality and opposition, it also represents the nature of how one extreme often becomes the other. For example, if you try to maintain too strong control of something, you may lose control altogether. Likewise, strength in one situation may be weakness in another. People who scream 'diversity' and 'tolerance' with such extremity end up destroying real diversity and tolerance by painting any level of disagreement with hateful labels such as 'racist' or 'sexist.' Not satisfied with improving their own condition, many of them feel empowered to criticize or invalidate the way others choose to live their own lives. Often a form of, shall we say, intellectual athleticism develops, wherein, perhaps, a person feels it's perfectly acceptable for those of this or that ethnic background to say they have issues no white person could ever understand, and yet if a white person says they have issues ethnic people can't understand, well that's racism!. Likewise, segregation and exclusion seems to be OK when it's females doing it. Life is tough for anyone. Those who tell you members of this or that group or sex have easier lives with little trouble, stress, conflict, pain, doubt, anger, etc., are lying to you. Life is a challenge for everyone, although the nature of that challenge differs for people of different groups, and, more importantly, FOR EACH INDIVIDUAL! How you respond to your specific challenge determines who you are and what you're going to come out of it with. Demonizing the other guy or the other group is one way to deal with it, if that's how you choose to respond. To those reading this thread whose mind is closed to differing views, you certainly have the right to feel that way and that's fine. To others interested in this thread who may not have already made up their minds about these issues, please understand that it's certainly possible to disagree and not be a sexist or a rapist or an abuser; it may even be possible to be right. 8-) Back to the martial arts! Jesse ------------------------------ From: jsegovia@mindspring.com Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 12:13:24 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #121 Kim, you did the right thing reporting the incident. Regardless of the outcome you stood up for yourself and did what was right, and that's what counts. Please let us know how your Kukkiwon test turns out, and good luck! What's your web site URL? Jesse Kim Jones wrote: > Can I kick the dead horse one last time? Please? I promise it will be swift. =) ------------------------------ From: Laura Kamienski Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 12:20:43 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: martial arts, SD and politics From: Gold Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 01:50:51 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Re: martial arts, SD and politics <> Though I think defining politics is useful here, I think this will end up off topic, so I will try to refocus and keep this aspect brief. Suffice it to say that economics and social construct is inherently connected and an are integral to politics. Politics is in fact necessarily includes managing resources and social structures. Otherwise economic and social conflicts wouldn't seek political resolution. <> Agreed that m.a. today in the typical dojang is far removed from 'war' or the military. However the military is not far removed from martial arts. It is my understanding that hand to hand combat is still part of military training. Also martial arts do include weapons training in many cases. The point was a historical connection and in some cases a present one. We have a lot of guys in our dojang who train because they work in a prison. That's political too. There are other politics involved in the history of m.a. too, including the exploitation of the peasant populations and their subsequent training in hand to hand combat. This is very political. Peasant revolt is a major and common cause of political upheaval and progression. Also the exclusion of women from the dojang. >>SD for women is also very political. It has been an integral part of the >>women's movement since it's inception. Since there has been a covert and >>overt war waged against women for centuries, the feminist movement has >>incorporated SD into its arsenal of defense. Therefore, I don't think >>there is any possibility of separating the two here either. <> Not a moot point unless I were to claim that the political factors in both cases were exactly the same. I did not. While I agree that the root of women's inequality ultimately rests in the division labor (as does all social/economic inequality), I go back to my original point that economics are the driving force behind all of politics and social constructs. However, the point here is that when women enter the dojang to learn to undo the established roles of submission and passivity, that is a political decision and action. You can't remove the politics from that. Interesting post. Laura - -- lkamiens@ptd.net lkamnski@bucknell.edu http://home.switchboard.com/LKamienski ____________________________________________________ "I am not an angry girl. But it seems I've got everyone fooled. Every time I say something they find hard to hear, they chalk it up to my anger and never to their own fear." Ani DiFranco ____________________________________________________ ------------------------------ From: Laura Kamienski Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 12:25:31 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re:women and SD Donnla wrote: <> Hi Donnla, This is cool... I had a similar but reverse situation. I started TKD and then became an SD addict. I found too many things that I was looking for (politically as a woman) missing in my TKD training. I needed to go outside of that framework. What I found was that my SD training has greatly improved my TKD training. I love padded attackers! Too fun!!! :^) I love TKD too. Laura - -- lkamiens@ptd.net lkamnski@bucknell.edu http://home.switchboard.com/LKamienski ____________________________________________________ "I am not an angry girl. But it seems I've got everyone fooled. Every time I say something they find hard to hear, they chalk it up to my anger and never to their own fear." Ani DiFranco ____________________________________________________ ------------------------------ From: Arthur Lee <7akl3@qlink.queensu.ca> Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 12:37:33 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: dojang digest V7 #121 From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 07:32:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: women's SD Folks, I requested that the posts be kept short. You aren't doing that. Keep them under 2K for now (good Lord, the largest one here is 8K!). Keep the discussion on martial arts and this can continue on. But no more about who is or is not a victim, why certain people are disadvantaged, when is a flame not a flame, who is qualified to teach and who isn't, etc. This is a martial arts list and more specifically a KMA list. Valid topics; for people with strong legs but rather weak upper bodies what are good defense techniques, or ... for people not used to extremely hard contact what are good ways to introduce that to them, or ways of dealing with confrontation, etc... Got it? Ray Terry Here... here... I have got to agree totally with you comment Ray... personally I came to this list to learn more about the martial arts, and if I truly wanted to discuss women's rights, and read really long-winded emails... (although i'm sure that they are ALL relevant to the subject that you present, but not to the list to which they are being posted...)...I would've joined an appropriate newsgroup or emailing list... I would truly hope that you guys would cut the crap, and let's discuss relevant topics... a word about weapons... when I was in WTF TKD, we used a bong (a bo stick.. i think... it was tapered and about 5.5 to 6 feet long...), and we had one form using the bong, and there were also a couple of one step sparring techniques that went along with the bong... but we were never tested on it... I also once saw a couple of black belts using two wooden daggers (about a foot long), and there seemed to be a form associated with it... I can't recall exactly what it was... there was also some throwing knives too... I saw my master's son using them as well as some other black belts... It seemed to me that weapons were more of a side thing rather than a mainstream technique that was taught in the TKD dojang... unfortunately, i know nothing as to the ITF way of doing things, but i hope that this sheds some light... *shrug* Arthur 2nd Dan WTF TKD 2nd Gup HDG ------------------------------ From: Laura Kamienski Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 12:50:26 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: flame From: "Vaught, Clifford (CLF N6Y2K8)" Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 08:08:27 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #120 <> Don't know whether this is a compliment or a flame???? :^0 I'll decide later. <> Mainstream U.S. electoral politics are but a microbe in the universe of politics. I hope your instructor was only talking about a proper warm-up during your warm-up. However that does not negate the political elements of m.a. or SD for women (or for men). It also does not mean that your instructor is not political, though I don't know. I could try to clarify this in another direction. The conflict between the WTF and the ITF for example is very political. Internal to TKD, but still political. The reason my Grand Master left Choi was very political. Why many people train in m.a. is political. I disagree, some people are political...all situations are political. They are not exclusively my political views btw. I think I've pointed this out with a detailed bibliography. Every post on a list like this is for the expressed purpose of distributing viewpoints, personal or otherwise. Again you are focussing on me and have added very little factual information to the discussion. Please try to refrain from doing so. <> No, but to try and argue toward the point and conclusions you were trying to draw in your other post, would have required more than your own personal experience. << I have 2 degrees and am quite well-read,>> Congratulations. In some areas you are, perhaps quite well read....but by your own admission not in the area of feminism or women's SD. That, alone was my point. If you wish to discuss or challenge any philosophical position you must first be familiar with the philosophy. Know thy enemy so to speak. You stated you haven't read or looked at these issues. I didn't. Your dismissal of these ideas as 'my opinion' is erroneous at best. I look forward to any support you have for your own conclusions. Please present them if you like. <> I said bordering on flame...this is much much closer to a real one. I think one foot is over the line at this point. I haven't seen one comment directly relating to the issue at hand in this post. Only comments about your personal life or your opinions about me. <> This is an all out genuine flame...this is my last response to you Cliff. I never said I don't think any women can benefit from a male instructor. My own instructor is male. Agaom. the idea is that technical skills being fairly equal, women taking a feminist approach to women's SD is a much more effective way to teach women. << Mine is different and I have NO hidden agenda. I will not comment on this thread again.>> Thank you...though again, I didn't see any comment on the thread _here_. Now I know, it wasn't a compliment, it was a flame. Laura - -- lkamiens@ptd.net lkamnski@bucknell.edu http://home.switchboard.com/LKamienski ____________________________________________________ "I am not an angry girl. But it seems I've got everyone fooled. Every time I say something they find hard to hear, they chalk it up to my anger and never to their own fear." Ani DiFranco ____________________________________________________ ------------------------------ From: Laura Kamienski Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 12:55:44 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: re: instinct and SD Hi Kim, Have you read Gavin DeBecker's "The Gift of Fear?" It is an excellent book on learning to hear the voices of your instinct. Kim, I'm so very sorry about what happened to you. Have you talked to anyone empathetic about it? It can be so helpful. I hope you are well and able to heal. If there is anything I can do.... Laura - -- lkamiens@ptd.net lkamnski@bucknell.edu http://home.switchboard.com/LKamienski ____________________________________________________ "I am not an angry girl. But it seems I've got everyone fooled. Every time I say something they find hard to hear, they chalk it up to my anger and never to their own fear." Ani DiFranco ____________________________________________________ ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 10:16:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: last issue... Ok, it seems like people can't stay on topic for an entire post. Time to take the non-MA posts to private email. Ray Terry ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #122 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. 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