From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #123 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Wed, 23 Feb 2000 Vol 07 : Num 123 In this issue: the_dojang: SD thread - Ray's request the_dojang: Re: Self-Defense Courses the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #122 the_dojang: clarification on bully...one more sorry the_dojang: weapons in TKD (ITF) the_dojang: Hand Conditioning the_dojang: FW: ITF and weapons... the_dojang: FW: Teaching methods... the_dojang: Re: Being drawn into debates ? Source for women's debates= read this... the_dojang: Re: This month's TaeKwonDo Times=thanks for the tip the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #116 [none] the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #122 [none] ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 785 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry, CA Taekwondo, and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Laura Kamienski Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 13:25:27 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: SD thread - Ray's request I want to express my deepest regard and appreciation for all of the positive, insightful and intelligent feedback (pro and con) I received both publicly and privately on this topic. I am so gratified that the m.a community is becoming aware of and is thinking deeply about these issues. I would be very happy to continue this discussion off-list with anyone who cares to continue it, or who would like any book recommendations or other information from me. I also welcome any book titles others may know of on this topic. As I've said in the past, Ray is a very skilled moderator and has my deepest respect and gratitude for creating and maintaining a wonderful forum. Thanks all, Laura - -- lkamiens@ptd.net lkamnski@bucknell.edu http://home.switchboard.com/LKamienski ____________________________________________________ "I am not an angry girl. But it seems I've got everyone fooled. Every time I say something they find hard to hear, they chalk it up to my anger and never to their own fear." Ani DiFranco ____________________________________________________ ------------------------------ From: Kas001@aol.com Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 13:29:45 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Self-Defense Courses This thread reminds me of the "my-style/school is better than your style/school" argument. Choosing a martial arts school, instructor, or even a style has always been about individual choice. There is no best. What works for me may not work for you and what is good or helpful for me may not be good or helpful for you. I know women who would feel more comfortable learning self defense from a women. Fine, if the instructor is good and is qualified to teach self defense; the student is willing; and the teaching and learning styles mesh, some serious learning is bound to take place. Same goes if the instructor or student is a man. This is an issues that we can examine for ourselves both in self defense classes and in martial arts in general. I like to work with both male and female students and instructors and people of all shapes and sizes. It more effectively prepares me for the "real world". It is true that many women (and men as well) who come to self defense classes have issues (don't we all in one way or another). Male or female, short or tall, we have to deal with these issues gently and patiently so that the student can learn. Isn't that what M.A. teachers and indeed all teachers do every day, help their student overcome their difficulties and learn. (Short philosopy statement follows - hope you don't mid Ray - feel free to cut if needed.) Solving the problems of sexism, racism, crime, violence, or whatever are not easy processes. We should recognise inequality and past sins in these areas, but not focus on them. We should and must focus on the solving of problems, not the perpetuation of the stereotypes (i.e. you can't create equality by perpetuating reverse discrimination - you must do it by recognising the acomplishments, inherant value, and capabilties of all people and individually by always striving for excellence and making the most of your personal talents and gifts). IMHO, - ---Kim P.S. A feminist is a person who believes in the political, social, and economic equality of the sexes and fights for same (which means a whole lot of us). Please do not judge the masses by the extremes of a few. ------------------------------ From: "Vaught, Clifford (CLF N6Y2K8)" Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 13:39:27 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #122 Thank you Anne! Cliff - ------------------------------ From: CA&B Skjold Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 10:30:14 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: The Men vs. Women Issue To all Martial Artist discussing this topic; Call me naive but I thought part of our training and philosophy allowed for equality no matter what when in the dojang? I have been taught that no matter who we are outside of martial arts (man-woman, black-white, cop-crook) that all these things did not matter. Whether in Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido, or in the training of self defense. We are all students of our arts not man-woman, black-white, cop-crook, etc. Sincerely, Anne Skjold (8th Gup - Tae Kwon Do) ------------------------------ From: Laura Kamienski Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 13:46:40 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: clarification on bully...one more sorry From: jsegovia@mindspring.com Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 12:01:43 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Long Response to Sexism Thread (you have been warned!) I recently participated in a similar thread on another martial arts list but I dropped out when I read how one of the participants had characterized the thread to a friend. She made it seem she was being bullied, that she was the only one with the right point of view and she was being attacked by all for it. <> Jesse, I was 'involved' in that debate. You have it backwards. I was being called a bully, not complaining of being bullied. One of the common reactions to women taking any assertive position is to be called a b@#$ or a dyke or a bully. All of which I have been called. This is what was happening during the other list's 'discussion.' Just try and bully me! ;^) Laura K. - -- lkamiens@ptd.net lkamnski@bucknell.edu http://home.switchboard.com/LKamienski ____________________________________________________ "I am not an angry girl. But it seems I've got everyone fooled. Every time I say something they find hard to hear, they chalk it up to my anger and never to their own fear." Ani DiFranco ____________________________________________________ ------------------------------ From: Dave Steffen Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 14:03:29 -0700 (MST) Subject: the_dojang: weapons in TKD (ITF) > > From: Andrew Pratt [...] > I have an ITF TKD manual out of Singapore. It is dated mid 70s. It > contains several sections on weapons including defences against > sword and pistols (not always plausible: I certainly would not > recommend a flying side kick against someone with sword at > ready). I think there were also some staff work. The nature of the > techniques suggest that DEFENCES against weapons were being taught, > not weapon TECHNIQUES as such. Indeed, _defence_ against weapons is explicitly mentioned in the reference manuals; it's not a major part of the ITF curriculum, but it is there. Actually _training_ in weapons is a different story. To the best of my knowledge, this kind of weapons training has _never_ been a part of the ITF curriculum, although individual instructors may be add it to their curriculum. AFAIK most (all?) of the old Korean weapons stuff ended up in Kuk Sool Won and Hapkido. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Steffen Wave after wave will flow with the tide Dept. of Physics And bury the world as it does Colorado State University Tide after tide will flow and recede steffend@lamar.colostate.edu Leaving life to go on as it was... - Peart / RUSH "The reason that our people suffer in this way.... is that our ancestors failed to rule wisely". -General Choi, Hong Hi ------------------------------ From: Dave Steffen Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 14:15:46 -0700 (MST) Subject: the_dojang: Hand Conditioning > From: "Christopher Spiller" [...] > General Choi is a big proponent of conditioning the attacking and > blocking tools as are Grand Master Sereff, Master Robert Wheatly, > Master Mel Steiner, and others in the USTF/ITF. Hee Il Cho > certainly does quite a bit of conditioning (see his last few covers > on TKD Times). I had the honor to attend a seminar with Grand Master Rhee, Ki Ha last October. His hand conditioning is almost inhuman - his knuckes are literally _inches_ thick! At one point, when he was talking about hand conditioning, he actually went over to the wall - we were in a high school gym, this was one of those cinder-block walls you see in high schools and such - and started pounding on it. The sound was incredible. My instructor, Mr. Rhone, was standing near GM Rhee, and told me later he could actually feel the floor shaking! I don't think GM Rhee could have _broken_ the wall... but there's some construction here on the CSU campus that I think would have simply collapsed! > No one is denying that conditioning can lead to problems. Then > again, so can sparring, flying kicks, etc. Martial arts seem to be > inherently risky (to me) it's just that the benefits outweigh the > risks. GM Rhee is IIRC in his late 50's or early 60's (anybody out there know how old he is?), has _obviously_ doing knuckle toughening for decades, and has absolutely no problems. Now, we'll see what happens when he's 80... but OTOH, a lot of people have arthritis by then anyway. BTW, General Choi is in his early 80's and has no problems with his hands. I speak from experience. ;-) So, my take on the situation is: A) it's much less damaging than you might think, _IF_ done properly. B) it's every bit as damaging as you might think if _NOT_ done properly C) we may be trading the ability to do really amazing things (breaking bricks and so forth) now for the inability to do normal things later... or at least the _risk_ of that disability. Whether or not this is something you wish to do is entirely up to you. I personally toughen my knuckles - TKD is important enough to me and to my personal philosophies that I'm willing to risk it. YMMV. BTW, I don't think that breaking bricks is that important in and of itself. However, the _implications_ of that ability _are_ important - both in self-defence situations, and to life in general. I can't help but think that GM Rhee's outlook on life in colored by the fact that damn near everything around him - people, cars, walls, buildings - are marked "Fragile". ;-) ;-) ;-) - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Steffen Wave after wave will flow with the tide Dept. of Physics And bury the world as it does Colorado State University Tide after tide will flow and recede steffend@lamar.colostate.edu Leaving life to go on as it was... - Peart / RUSH "The reason that our people suffer in this way.... is that our ancestors failed to rule wisely". -General Choi, Hong Hi ------------------------------ From: "Gary Liddington" Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 21:57:03 -0000 Subject: the_dojang: FW: ITF and weapons... First of all a big OOPS! is needed I was the one who asked about weapons in the ITF. I should have been a bit clearer and stated that I meant the International Tang Soo Do Federation (under C.S.Kim). I would still be interested to find if the ITF Tang Soo Do has weapons in it's syllabus.. Sorry again folks :) Tang Soo, Gary Liddington ------------------------------ From: "Gary Liddington" Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 21:57:04 -0000 Subject: the_dojang: FW: Teaching methods... Hi all, Currently my instructor and I teach in the range of 15-17 juniors (6years to 13 year olds) all in the same lesson. Now when only one of us is available to teach the number of students can sometimes seem overwhelming also some of our children have behaviour problems. Asking the opinion of some of the esteemed instructors on this board is it would be wise to split the older students into a senior class? Basically so we have more time with just the juniors. Erm, I think I put that across ok.. Thanks for the help. Tang Soo! Gary ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 14:14:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Being drawn into debates ? Source for women's debates= read this... Cliff noted: Response: Wanted to help ya out. But, I learned on another list that you can get suckered into these arguments and although you may be correct, you end up shafted anyway. So, I listen to my mom. She says, "Son, do not discuss race, religion, sex, politics..." I have been on another list entitled "Self-Defense Women's Forum." You can get on that list by contacting Mr. James L. Haynes at jhaynes1@flash.net. Or you can subsribe at SDFW@onelist.com Keep up the good work Ray. The McD Man __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 14:24:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: This month's TaeKwonDo Times=thanks for the tip Will stop in Borders, have a cappucino, and read it in the cheap seats section. That is the section where you can sit and read the magazines, copy down the information, and not buy the magazine. Just drink coffee and act sophisticated amid the background jazz music. Also, there is a article on Kicking techniques. Will get info. The best. McD... - --- foxdragon@cuttingedge.net wrote: > Oh hey, the magazine made my day today. I saw it in Barnes > and Noble in LaCrosse while looking for a Laurie R. King > book. (Had to order it) After my job interview I stopped for > lunch at Country Kitchen and brought the mag in to read. > Almost chocked on my fries. GM West, they've published the > pic they took at the seminar I attended in oct. On page 28, > I'm in there. 5th one from the right in the back. Jere is > second from the right and Luke is kneeling in front of Jere > and another woman. I had to show Luke when I got back to > town. He's excited, wants his own copy to show his mom. :) I > also enjoyed the article on page 82. It is about a martial > artist who survived a motorcycle accident. I did not > particularly enjoy the article on the codes of ediquette on > page 92. Did anyone else read this article and what did you > think? Everyone here is out looking for a copy of the mag > this week. :) Including Mister Lee. I stopped by to see him > while I was down there. I told him and talked to him about > getting Alain here for a seminar. A possiblility > Alain...He's interested. Or he will put you on one who is. > He will be e-mailing you. I gave him your addy. Donna > -- > Me and my shadow > _____________________________________________________________ > Who will win the Oscars? Spout off on our Entertainment list! > http://www.topica.com/lists/showbiztalk > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: JBoorstein@aol.com Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 17:28:12 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #116 Catching up on dojang digests here, so perhaps someone has already answered this question. If not, New York Martial Arts Center, 598 Broadway (corner of Houston) in New York teaches hapkido. 431.1100 is the phone number. JB ------------------------------ From: Kim Jones Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 14:36:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [none] If I can get a video tape of my Kukkiwon cho-dan testing, it'll most likely be posted in the TKD section of my website. http://kenochi_timberland.tripod.com/ * NOTE: The site is best viewed with Netscape 4.5 and above; I don't really recommend MSIE. If you have an older platform that doesn't recognize Javascript (I do use minor Javascripting throughout the site), I'm trying to get a text-only version of my site up. Optimal viewing is 800x600 screen resolution. My TKD section is REALLY limited. I have some links (would like more, don't care what style - lost a lot of bookmarks due to computer crashes), some references (if you can send me any references, especially books and videos, bibliographical format is nice, along with possible vendors and prices), pictures (1 posted for now), and some stuff that I wrote myself. It's self-explanatory. ===== ~~Kim Jones *ladytimberland@yahoo.com* ICQ: 52828008 AOL: Lady Timberland "I've kept the rain falling down on me all the time." ~Roxette, "The Rain" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: JBoorstein@aol.com Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 17:43:45 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #122 Still catching up on digests here... I once pointed out to someone in one diversity project or another I was involved with that if people who follow the path of perversity are called perverts shouldn't people who follow the path of diversity be called diverts? More seriously, may I suggest a quick review of Sir Isiah Berlin's works on the subject of regionalism and related issues? JB ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 14:58:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [none] ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #123 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry, CA Taekwondo, and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.