From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #157 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Fri, 10 March 2000 Vol 07 : Num 157 In this issue: the_dojang: Ge Beck the_dojang: GaeBeck, ugh! the_dojang: International Hapkido Seminar Plus Other Items the_dojang: Re: The JiuJitsu Guy the_dojang: Re: Korea Kuk Sool Association, Chiefmaster In Sun Seo the_dojang: Kuk Sool Won the_dojang: Gedo Chang the_dojang: KJMS/KSW roots [none] ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 800 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry, CA Taekwondo, and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dave Steffen Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 15:38:59 -0700 (MST) Subject: the_dojang: Ge Beck > From: "Silke Schulz" > > Dave wrote: > >For the original poster - don't kid yourself, Ge Beck is a _tough_ > >pattern for 1st Dans. Not easy for the 2nd Dans either, really. My > >point is, if you're struggling with it, join the club - just about > >every higher ranking black belt I know struggled with that one. > > Dave--thank you! I feel better now. I was starting to think that I > had regressed as a 2nd Dan. I had a much easier time with Kwan-gae > as a 1st Dan! Actually, there's kind of a progression at each Dan level. The first of the three isn't that bad; the second is technical, but symmetric, and fairly short. The third is just horrendous. Kwan-Gae is a (relatively) easy pattern. Po-Eun is easy to learn but hard to do. Ge-Beck is just plain tough. Then (as it used to be), Ko-Dang was fairly easy; Eui-Am was technical; and Choong-Jang was just plain tough. Now, you've got the technical Eui-Am, the difficult Choong-Jang, and the almost-completely-impossible-unless-you're-either-17-years-old- or-have-springs-for-legs Juche. ;-) ;-) BTW, it's right about at 1st or 2nd Dan where the increase in difficulty become approximately exponential. The upper level black belt forms are absolutely awesome! ;-) - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Steffen Wave after wave will flow with the tide Dept. of Physics And bury the world as it does Colorado State University Tide after tide will flow and recede steffend@lamar.colostate.edu Leaving life to go on as it was... - Peart / RUSH "The reason that our people suffer in this way.... is that our ancestors failed to rule wisely". -General Choi, Hong Hi ------------------------------ From: Dave Steffen Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 15:42:29 -0700 (MST) Subject: the_dojang: GaeBeck, ugh! > From: Gregory Giddins > >Dave--thank you! I feel better now. > >I was starting to think that I had > >regressed as a 2nd Dan. I had a much > >easier time with Kwan-gae as a 1st Dan! > > >Silke > > Haa haa. I feel your pain. I am a TSD guy, who briefly trained at > an ITF style school last year, and yes, GaeBeck was a pain, but I > enjoyed it very much. But just wait till you have to learn > EuiAm!!!! Haa haaa. The only person I have ever seen that did > that form justice was a friend of Dave Steffen, a 6th Dan out of > Denver. Wow. I thought I was doing okay with it until I saw him > demonstrate the reverse heel kicks, and um, after that I realized I > should just go back to TSD. Hee hee. Hiya Greg, I presume you're talking about my instructor, Mr. Robert Rhone. Don't get discouraged - there aren't any TaeKwon-Do people I know can do what he does, either. ;-) We really are still trying to figure out what planet he's from. ;-) - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Steffen Wave after wave will flow with the tide Dept. of Physics And bury the world as it does Colorado State University Tide after tide will flow and recede steffend@lamar.colostate.edu Leaving life to go on as it was... - Peart / RUSH "The reason that our people suffer in this way.... is that our ancestors failed to rule wisely". -General Choi, Hong Hi ------------------------------ From: "Jere R. Hilland" Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 21:16:33 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: International Hapkido Seminar Plus Other Items Master Booth, glad to see you made it back home to summer in your part of the country! The Mrs. told me you were due back on Wed. But I don't remember if that was your Wed. our our Wed. as you are a day ahead. Folks, I have heard a lot of people tell me that they wish they could make it to the hapkido seminar in Jackson. But because of this or that, they can't make it. Well, my friend Master Geoff Booth, hapkido 7th dan, makes a 30 + hour airplane trip to get to Jackson from the other side of the globe. He has been in Jackson for the seminar everytime I have been! So if I told him that the plane trip from Cincinnati to Jackson was to far to travel, or to expensive, etc, he would obviously laugh at me. No one really cares about who is who in hapkido, politics, etc., everyone is there to have a good time and practice hapkido, etc.... I have been reading a recent debate over kks vs. hkd, etc, etc. Does the history of the art change your practice? Of course not. Obviously hapkido developed slowly and many people influence its development. Many of the techniques that are part of the hapkido we practice were not part of the original system taught by Choi Dojunim upon his return to Korea from Japan. This type of maturity is common for martial arts after the original development. So enjoy your art, make it your own. Is my hapkido the same as my teachers? No of course not. Hapkido is now a Korean martial art and has been for a while. My first 3 teachers are Korean nationals. My teacher now is American with a Irish background. My family came from Norway in 1900 so obviously I am Norwegian. I am sure that Choi Dojunim would be pleased with the way true hapkido has developed world wide... Jere Hilland http://homepages.go.com/~jrhilland/HapkiDojang.html http://wwp.mirabilis.com/6423263 ------------------------------ From: IMATC@aol.com Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 21:26:21 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The JiuJitsu Guy In a message dated 3/8/00 11:23:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Everyone is free to train in any style they want of course. But they > should definately not misconstrue why they are training. If it is for > kids, or flexibility, excercise, wanting to learn Korean culture etc then > thats fine. But a teacher should never tell a student who wants to learn > how to protect themselves that Tae Kwon Do is the way to go. If that is > your purpose then you should check out an academy that teaches boxing and > Brazilian Jiu jitsu. >> Personally I believe all TKD stylists should check out Boxing, BJJ and any other style. If they are learning good protection at their Dojang, there is nothing to fear. However, I am not that pleased with many forms of street self-defense from TKD without the added curriculum of HKD, Boxing, JJ and such. ------------------------------ From: Seo727@aol.com Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 22:05:49 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Korea Kuk Sool Association, Chiefmaster In Sun Seo Dear Kuk Sool Won practioners and fellow martial artists, My name is Steve Sung Kwon Seo and I am the youngest son of Chiefmaster In Sun Seo and the nephew of Kuksanim In Hyuk Suh. I am writing this e-mail to clear up any misconceptions anyone might have and to elucidate my father's response to his supposed resignation. Furthermore, I will once and for all claify the fundamental difference between the World Kuk Sool Association and the Korea Kuk Sool Association. First and foremost, I speak to CM In Sun Seo everyday and I have informed him of the various e-mails and the happenings of the last few days. The following statements are his words which I have repectfully translated: 1. CM Seo has not, and has no plans to resign his postion as head of the Korea Kuk Sool Association, which he has led since 1974, and challenges any person to show any documentation, statement or any proof that shows otherwise. In additon, CM Seo is deeply saddened that any preson would attempt to slander his good name and to disseminate inaccurate information that can potentially have a deleterious effect on an organization that he and so many others have invested an immeasurable amount of hardship and dedication. 2. Furthermore, since 1974, CM Seo has been the sole leader of the Korea Kuk Sool Assocation and every dan certification, national testing, tournament or seminar has been under the auspices of the Korea Kuk Sool Association and has no time had any association with the World Kuk Sool Association. In fact, all official documentation, records or events have been signed by CM In Sun Seo and not Kuksanim In Hyuk Suh. Beyond the official terms of the organization, since 1974, Kuksanim Suh has visited Korea less than 5 times and had never done so in an official capacity to further the goals or to help the Korea Kuk Sool Association. In fact, Kuksanim's visits have always been personal in nature and and has never had official interaction with Korea Kuk Sool since his departure. The headquarters of the Korea Kuk Sool Association is and has been for the last 25 years located in Pusan, South Korea under the ownership and direct control of CM In Sun Seo and the spring national testing will be held on March 19th by CM Seo for all black belt Kuk Sool Won candidates in Korea. 3. CM Seo states that although he has never contemplated any rift between he and his brother, he was saddened to discover that persons, who have been in contact with Kuksanim Suh, state that he, CM Seo is resigning while Kuksanim Suh has not stated any such assertions to him personally. CM Seo can only assume that persons, including Kuksanim Suh are attempting to undermine his organization and to consolidate their own power in order to take control. CM Seo believes that all Kuk Sool practioners should be wary of such actions because they go against the very essence of the precepts of Kuk Sool Won and martial arts in general. CM Seo further states that he has no choice but to make it clear that if persons continue to make false statements about him he will have no other recourse but take legal action against those who attempt to slander and defame his good name. 4. In addition, to make any connection between Kuk Sool Won and the Korea Kido(Hapkido) Association is ludicrous. The Korea Kido Association is the foremost martial arts organization in Korea recognized by the Korean governement and its leadership is not subject to the vicissitudes of any single martial art organization. The Korea Kuk Sool Association is actually one of many organizations that are part of the Korea Kido Association and each member must become certified with Kido to become nationally accredidated, regardless of who is the head of Kuk Sool. 5. The World Kuk Sool Association's historical policy towards the Korea Kuk Sool Association has always been one of nonrecognition. In fact, dans received in Korea were not recognized by the World Kuk Sool Association. Also, the official Kuk Sool Won web page has never mentioned Korea Kuk Sool, CM Seo or any schools in Korea. 6. Lastly, my father is profoundly saddened by these developments and wishes all Kuk Sool members to keep training hard and regardless of what they hear, remember that we all train in Kuk Sool to better ourselves and each other. He asks everyone to keep their minds and their hearts open and he hopes the best for all those involved in Kuk Sool. As the son of CM Seo and nephew of Kuksanim Suh, I have had intimate knowledge of the workings of Kuk Sool Won and have much to say. However, many times, we must show discretion and wisdom in our actions. I must say this to all Kuk Sool practioners as well as all martial artists. Let us first gather our facts, discern their authenticity and make sound justments before we make any statements or actions. If not, we are not living up to the most highly regarded value of martial arts- HONOR. Yours in Kuk Sool and Mu Sool,. Steve Sung Kwon Seo (Third Dan) ------------------------------ From: MichaelChoi@aol.com Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 22:52:29 EST Subject: the_dojang: Kuk Sool Won First of all, I didn't realize 800 people read this thing. I must crazy to put postings. I'm just a (friggin') 1st Dan in hapkido. Admittedly, I'm colored in terms of view of Kuk Sool. I've trained with hapkido people who have opinions and even worked with Kuk Sool people. For the record, I am not anti-Kuk Sool. I would like Kuk Sool founder In Hyuk Suh to be more honest of hapkido's influence over the Kuk Sool. Too many of the Kuk Sool joint locking and throwing techniques look identical to hapkido. Suh maintains that Yong Sool Choi influenced his life in martial arts. How? Why won't he be upfront about the relationship Yong Sool Choi has on Suh's martial arts? Second, Suh's visit to Kim Moo-woong's school in Seoul in 1962, what impact did that have in developing Kuk Sool. The fact that two of the greatest grandmasters of hapkido had a personal relationship with the founder of Kuk Sool is indicative of a heavy influence. If that is not the case, please explain. I have heard that Suh inherited the "Royal Court Martial Arts" after studying with his grandfather who is an "nth" generation royal court guard. Well, who is he? What is his name? Is there any historical documentation to support his ancestry's claim to being the Royal Court guard? Sincerely, Michael Choi ------------------------------ From: MichaelChoi@aol.com Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 22:53:59 EST Subject: the_dojang: Gedo Chang In a message dated 3/9/00 5:40:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << << f I'm lucky, I'd like to meet Grandmasters Han Jae Ji, He Young Kimm, Gedo Chang (once my Korean is up to speed) >> Hello Michael, are you referring to the Gedo Chang from Lombard Illinois? Mark Daley Hapkido/BJJ >> If you mean the Chang that hosts the hapkido and ki seminar every year, then yes, I'm referring to him. Sincerely, Michael Choi ------------------------------ From: YMCATKD@aol.com Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 00:26:04 EST Subject: the_dojang: KJMS/KSW roots << > Anyone interested in discussing the origins of KSW/ KJMS?>>> <> This will be the short version and we can go from here.....what I am writing comes from several sources but 2 of them were Americans training in Korea in early to mid 70's. The Japanese from about 1894 to 1945 occupied Korea and from my understanding did everything they could to convert the Koreans to Japanese culture....I have heard this refered to as "Japanize" or "Japanizing". My understanding is that what ever Korean martial arts instructors that were identified by the Japanese were killed. Judo and Shotokan and Kendo were taught to the Koreans in Korea and to Koreans sent to Japanese Universities. After WWII a group of Korean martial arts students/instructors/masters decided they were going to rebuilt the Korean martial arts. This Group was based primarly in 2 different cities....Seoul and Pusan. The Seoul group was headed up by GM Lee, Han Chul and the Pusan group was headed by GM Suh, In Yuk. There were other well know names involved but I will stick to the basics for now. This very determined group of practioners shared information to put together a very comprehensive style. The style went by different names at different times but it seems the prevelent name was Kung Jung Mu Sool--Kuk Sool. My understanding is that GM Suh was not so much the martial art brains behind this group but was a excellent organiser and had the ability to bring together such great talents. GM Suh of course is an excellent martial artist in his own right....student of HKD under GM Choi and other arts. I have heard that he studied Chinese martial arts earlier. As for GM Lee.....he was known for some "high level" techniques and supposed did not kick at all. My understanding is that the Pyung Su Bub techniques and other high level techniques came from him. Supposedly the Pusan group was known for being very flashy and Seoul group for being strounger fighters. This statement alone seems onesided and we can assume it came from a Seoul group member however I have known members of both groups and it seemed true to me. In the end the two groups separated......which is an incredible shame since separately we are not as strong. I wish that in the future that the different groups could come together and from one organisation. Today the Pusan group is known as Kuk Sool Won and the Seoul group goes by Kung Jung Mu Sool mostly. Some of the KJMS instructors went over to KSW when GM Lee disassociated himself from the martial arts community. There of course is alot more to the story but this is a good starting point. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 05:48:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [none] ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #157 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry, CA Taekwondo, and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.