From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #170 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Tues, 14 March 2000 Vol 07 : Num 170 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: Oregon Fighting Arts the_dojang: No Thought, No Mind the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #169 the_dojang: Re: Concerns With the USTU the_dojang: Hapkido vs. Aikido the_dojang: USTU corruption Re: the_dojang: Re: Concerns With the USTU the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #169 Re: the_dojang: No Thought, No Mind the_dojang: Toronto [none] ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 800+ members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Hapkido64@aol.com Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 21:42:38 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Oregon Fighting Arts Mr. Gajdostic. I have seen your school several times on the way to work on Corneillius Pass Rd.?? Can you explain what arts you teach and your background? I have been involved in MA for 20 years and am looking for knowledge..And maybe a new school I might be visiting. Thanks Greg Hindley Aloha, OR ------------------------------ From: WEE Shin Hoe Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 11:03:22 +0800 Subject: the_dojang: No Thought, No Mind > From: MichaelChoi@aol.com > Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 23:34:52 EST > Subject: the_dojang: No Thought, No Mind > > As Master Hal Whalen mentioned, in martial arts, it is crucial to achieve "no > thought, no mind." I will discuss briefly the origin of the phrase "no mind." > In Korean and Japanese, the expression is "mu shim" which means empty mind or > no mind. This is a basic teaching of Buddhism, which supposes that the root > of all evil is desire. The way of salvation is (supposedly) achieved by > eliminating all desire. The way of eliminating all desire is to "empty your > mind" of the external world. (Mind you, this is probably only one school of > thought within Buddhism.) > > At first glance, one may conclude that there is no correlation between the > Buddhist concept of "mu shim" and the martial art concept of "mu shim." They > are both similar in the doctrine of eliminating all that is extraneous. For > martial arts, one repeats the technique until all error is eliminated and the > technique is internalized, or in other words, "it becomes second nature." In > Zen Buddhism, one meditates in order to eliminate all extraneous thought > until the "True Mind" is achieved. Nevertheless, there is a difference > between the two types of "mu shim." > > Sincerely, > Michael Choi Dear Michael, Actually, I do not think that there is any different between Buddhism and Martial Arts in term of "mu shim". IMHO I think the more appropriate word will be "Kong" (As in Kong Soo Do) or the "Void". It is the fundamental of Zen Buddhism, the "void" roughly translated is a state of mind that there is no thought, no hatred, no fear of loosing or joy of winning; nothing but yet aware of everything. You do not try to control anything but yet in total control. It's just like eating when you are hungry, drinking when you are thirsty. Or water flowing down the stream, there is no predetermined paths, it will simply overwhelms the obstacle if it is not strong enough, or flows into the path of least resistance. Your action just happened naturally without having to give it any thought. You do not "TRY" to eliminate extraneous thought in meditation. The process of TRYING itself will taint your thought. But rather, you let your mind grows without any limitation imposed by your prejudice, emotion or environment. Perhaps it will be best summarized in this little story; When the fifth generation Chief Abbot of a temple (probably Shaolin, but I am not sure) decided to appoint the next Chief, he ask his disciples to summarize what they have learned about Zen. His top student answer in the following poetry; My body is as Bodhi Tree, My mind is as a sparkling mirror, I will always polish it, So that it will not be tainted by even a speck of dust. One of his servant monk that do their cooking and cleaning answer with his own poetry; The body is not a Bodhi Tree, The mind is not a mirror, If there is nothing there, How can it collect dust? The servant became the next Chief. Perhaps the concept of "void" is more relevent to Martial Arts than we realised. The greatest samurais in the history of Japan happened to be zen masters and Shaolin Temple which was founded by Bodhidarma, the fist Indian monk to bring Zen Buddhisim to China, was also the Mecca of Chinese Kung Fu. - -- Regards, S. H. Wee Email : shinhoe@pc.jaring.my ------------------------------ From: CKCtaekwon@cs.com Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 22:22:24 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #169 In a message dated 3/14/00 8:28:03 PM Central Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << I did not want to begin my introduction with this complaint but I should explain. My instructor, Master Steven Carrasco was legally elected as president of the Mass Taekwondo Association. Everyone knew that a local Korean Master, Master Ahn would challenge the results, so they even had a USTU vice president in attendance to supervise and vouch for the legitimacy of the election. Master Carrasco was elected by a strong majority. A few months later Master Ahn unilaterally declared this election invalid and held another election. Master Carrasco learned of this election when he saw a letter from Master Ahn to another Master announcing the results. Guess who was elected president of this election? Several other elected officials were also deposed and replaced by persons of Master Ahn's liking. Many of the leaders of the USTU are Master Ahn's cronies, including Master Sang Lee who is from the same Kwan. Guess which election the USTU is upholding? Master Carrasco has been denied all due process by the USTU. My brother in law, a Kukiwon fifth dan, and an attorney represented Master Carrasco in a demand letter and probable law suit against Master Ahn and perhaps others. Among other claims, the law suit alleges racial discrimination as Master Carrasco is not Korean. My brother in law, Master Carrasco's lawyer is Asian and devoted to his Korean Master, but he saw clear racial discrimination in this case. The documents related to this case are public and I may be able to make them available to individuals who have a particular interest. It is unclear whether Master Carrasco will have the funds to pursue this law suit and so Master Ahn and his cronies may win out. I have known many Korean Masters whom I admire deeply. I and Master Carrasco are friends with Grand Master Bo in Lee (9th Dan), Grand Master Mountain Kim, and Grand Master Kwon of Tewksburry Ma who is probably the greatest martial arts master I've known. But I think there is clearly discrimination in USTU politics and Master Carrasco has been discriminated against. Without mentioning who they are, I can say that several Korean Masters in Massachusetts have encouraged Master Carrasco to fight this as a matter of honor. This experience with USTU politics and other more publicized incidents regarding the USTU top leadership, as well as dirty politics on the local level, make a mockery of the claim that Taekwondo training builds character. I have met some great USTU athletes who are Olympic hopefuls and I would love to support them individually in some way, But I will no longer support the USTU unless there is a significant change in the leadership. Not that they care about this as I am sure that I and my opinion are insignificant to them. But I am one of the rank and file as it were, a professional person who is a black belt and who has children that may be involved in Taekwondo and who would normally make some contribution to the organization. I participated in the first Golden Senior Nationals and won a silver medal in Poomse, got my butt kicked in sparring -- but had the guts at that time to step in the ring for a full contact bout with a fourth Dan when I was a first Dan. I mention this to show that though I am by no means a top athlete, I was an active member of the USTU and I would think the sort of membership the USTU would want to cultivate for financial reasons and to remain vital. I suspect that if more people knew about the inner workings of the USTU, they would loose a lot of needed support. I hope I haven't offended any one unduly, but that's the story of my dissatisfaction with the USTU and my decision to withdraw any support from this organization. Jose' >> Jose, is this the Master Ahn in Texas, or is it in Massachsetts? Gary New CKC Web Page ------------------------------ From: CBAUGHN@aol.com Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 22:23:21 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Concerns With the USTU In a message dated 3/14/00 9:27:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << But I will no longer support the USTU unless there is a significant change in the leadership. >> As a member of the Ohio Taekwondo Association, I believe I can empathize with the problems you have seen in the MA Association. We have traveled a long road to reach our situation today. What I can't understand is how you think the USTU will ever be changed or improved if you drop out and leave it to those who want to keep the status quo? I believe there ARE winds of change blowing in the USTU... that the membership is making its concerns known and that leadership is beginning to listen and learn and work with us. I also believe that the leadership can and will change for the better only if we as members are seriously involved in helping them to understand what we want our USTU to become. Sally Baughn cbaughn@aol.com ------------------------------ From: WEE Shin Hoe Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 11:38:47 +0800 Subject: the_dojang: Hapkido vs. Aikido > From: Morgan Kochel > Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 13:10:09 -0500 > Subject: the_dojang: Hapkido vs. Aikido > > Can someone tell me if what the main differences are between Hapkido and > Aikido? I'm only slightly familiar with both, but to me they seem very > similar. > > Thanks. > > Pilseung! > Morgan > > ------------------------------ Dear Morgan, Here is my two cents worth; Both Aikido and Hapkido have their roots in Aiki Jujutsu and happened to mean the same thing except pronounced in different language (Korean & Japanese). In fact, they share the same Chinese Characters. Both might looked identical in the early days. However, since then, the two arts have taken different approach down the path of evolution. The Aikido is in the process of trying to be more "gentleman", where a lot of striking techniques has been removed and replaced with gentler ones if you compare the modern Aikido and the early Aikido. The emphasize is not to injure or kill your opponent but to discourage him from doing it again. Whereas in Hapkido, there is no time to be a "gentleman". Striking and kicking techniques were added in later days to make it more lethal. You will injure or kill your opponent if it is necessary. - -- Regards, S. H. Wee Email : shinhoe@pc.jaring.my ------------------------------ From: MichaelChoi@aol.com Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 22:35:53 EST Subject: the_dojang: USTU corruption I will not get into specifics, but I held a high position within the 1993 World Taekwondo Championships Organizing Committee. I worked with the YH Park brothers and Mr. Jung Hoon Kim (son of Dr. Un Yong Kim) on a daily basis. Because of the hypocrisy and lack of integrity, I have left WTF Taekwondo. I practice hapkido because there are no tournament politics. From what I read of ITF textbooks and articles, that organization seems to have more honor, but I'm not an ITF guy. I know, I know, there is plenty of other politics in hapkido. Another reason I left WTF Taekwondo is that it's just kicking and punching because of tournament rules, no joint-locks, no throws, no chokes, no groundfighting, no weapons. I lost interest. I still maintain contact with one of the WTF Deputy Sec Gen'l that I befriended on the Organizing Committee for the '93 Championships. It's a shame. There are a lot of good WTF masters and practitioners, but the few bad apples have to ruin it for everybody. Also, I very much dislike Jung Hoon Kim, and I think "the apple does not fall far from the tree." I respect the developments that WTF/Kukkiwon has made in modernizing/Koreanizing Taekwondo through development of Sport Taekwondo. Nevertheless, I believe it is more important to transmit Korean Do/Tao over sport techniques, such as the Five Commandments of Won Kwang, the Five Relations and Three Bonds, values such as courtesy, sincerity, trust, and perserverance. Unfortunately, the WTF/KKW has been much too lax in this area by concentrating too much on developing medal winning techniques (that a street fighter could probably counter with illegal techniques. But in the street, anything goes). Sincerely, Michael Choi Sincerely, Michael Choi ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 20:15:24 PST Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: Concerns With the USTU > As a member of the Ohio Taekwondo Association, I believe I can empathize with > the problems you have seen in the MA Association. We have traveled a long > road to reach our situation today. > > What I can't understand is how you think the USTU will ever be changed or > improved if you drop out and leave it to those who want to keep the status > quo? > > I believe there ARE winds of change blowing in the USTU... that the > membership is making its concerns known and that leadership is beginning to > listen and learn and work with us. I also believe that the leadership can > and will change for the better only if we as members are seriously involved > in helping them to understand what we want our USTU to become. I gotta go with Sally on this. The 'love it or leave it' line never made any sense to me. Get involved and fix it. As for Dr. Kim's son, that is simply yet another example of a VERY honorable person with not-so-highly honorable offspring. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Rodney G. Graves" Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 19:56:01 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #169 Arthur and Ken, I've been watching this with more than a little amusement... I didn't start studying Hapkido until I was 34. I had to learn and perform in test all of those jumping, spinning, and flying kicks. I was never a jock or a physical specimen. I'm 5' 11" and (when in peak shape during this period) was weighing in at around 210 lbs. It was hard. After learning to do these kicks, I asked my instructors about their practicality. Both my Sabum Nim and my Kwan Jang Nim related that in tournament situations, they were a bad idea, and that in real combat anything higher than the opponent's sternum was a bad idea. But the really effective low kicks (to the knees and shins) are prohibited in tournament bouts (for good reason), as are most of the defenses against kicking I was taught. V/R Rod V/R Rod Il Dan, Byereong Kwan Hapkido At 06:42 PM 3/14/00 -0800, you wrote: >hey ken... > >the little blurb i gave about the jumping is indeed for us youngins... i >myself being only a wee 21, i know that i couldn't possibly jump as far >as i could 3-4 years ago, and i imagine that it will probably get harder >as i get older 8). and yes i understand and lack of practicality of a >jump kick, if you're a heavier set individual, older, or just can't jump >well... i myself would also not use it in a "real" fight, or even a >tourney fight since my running start as well as jump wouldn't be an >effective tool for me to use.... (i've probably gone WAY off topic....) >but... I remember my master once saying (approximately) that you should >use whatever advantages you can, ie is you're lithe and fast (probably >same word...) then hop around your opponent and attack repeatedly, if >you're slow or big, then use timing and don't worry about wasting your >energy moving about so much... let them tire themselves out more, while >you just do the effective hits... this is from WAY back when so i don't >remember exactly what he said... but i hope that the message comes >across okay... > >Although i'm only a mere 21 years old... i do feel aches and pains, and >sometimes older than i am... so i think that i understand a little bit >as to how you feel... maybe 8) > >Arthur > > >------------------------------ ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 20:31:18 PST Subject: Re: the_dojang: No Thought, No Mind > and Martial Arts in term of "mu shim". IMHO I think the more appropriate > word will be "Kong" (As in Kong Soo Do) or the "Void". It is the ?? I thought that the Kong in Kong Soo Do was Empty, as in Empty Hand Way (ie. Karate-do). Kara = Kong. Or does Karate-do = Void Hand Way? :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: theteam@total.net Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 22:37:23 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Toronto Arnis, Kali, Eskrima Toronto, Canada - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Canada, the City of Toronto, Arnis Canada Inc. and the Filipino Canadian community take great pride in inviting you and your students to participate in the 2000 World Martial Arts Championship (Arnis, Kali, Eskrima). This will be the first international Filipino martial arts tournament of this size and calibre to be held in Canada. On Thursday, Canada, will host a welcoming reception for officials and team representatives. The tournament officially commences on Friday morning with competitors picking up their tournament package, which includes a souvenir 2000 World Martial Arts Championship T-shirt and program. The first events will be the individual and team forms competition. Sparring events start Saturday morning and will continue through to Sunday afternoon. The tournament concludes with an awards banquet on Sunday evening. Dates: June 15-18, 2000 (Thursday evening, Friday, Saturday and Sunday) Place: Queen Elizabeth Complex, Exhibition Place, Toronto, Canada Events: Individual Weapons Forms, Team Weapons Forms Full Contact Sparring (at least two matches per participant) Schedule: June 15, 2000 Reception for officials and representatives June 16, 2000 - Opening Assembly, Weapons Forms - City of Toronto Competitors Reception June 17, 2000 - Full Contact Sparring Men's, Women's, Senior's and Junior's Division Special Peewee Division June 18, 2000 Sparring Finals, Banquet, Awards and Closing Ceremony - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Reminder: Early Bird deadline is March 31, 2000. To register at a discount and receive your souvenir T-shirt and program, please submit your registration form by this date. To see rules and get a registration form, please go to the following website or contact the organizers at: WebPage: www.total.net/~wes1/index.htm E-mail: theteam@total.net Phone: (416) 588-3996 (Arnis Canada Inc.) Fax: (416) 588-4505 ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 20:29:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [none] ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #170 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.