From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #173 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Wed, 15 March 2000 Vol 07 : Num 173 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: juan moreno the_dojang: RE: Tae Bo the_dojang: Re: street fighting the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #172 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #172 the_dojang: High kicks Re: the_dojang: Tang Soo Do / Moo Duk Kwan / Soo Bahk Do Re: the_dojang: Tang Soo Do / Moo Duk Kwan / Soo Bahk Do the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #172 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #172 [none] the_dojang: "Kong" the_dojang: Re:DDJ V7 #171 - Different styles the_dojang: ITF politics (was: USTU corruption) [none] ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 800+ members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JSaportajr@aol.com Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 10:39:05 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: juan moreno In a message dated 3/15/00 10:23:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Let's see... Juan trains 9 hours a day, probably sleeps 7 hours, spends 3 hours max on eating. That just leaves 5 hours in the day. Hmm... I guess he is the perfect example of someone who lives Taekwondo. I don't mean to pick on him. The Taekwondo athletes at Kyung Hee University and Yong In University are the same way. >> He is an Olympic athlete and all Olympic athletes work that hard if not harder when training for competition. It is his career. I worked at least that hard to become a doctor, so he works that hard in being the best in his career. I agree that it would be an unbalanced life for someone who is not doing this as their career or main thing in life. I have had the pleasure of getting to know Juan Moreno a little bit, and he is one of the most remarkable individuals Ive ever met. He's a great guy, well balanced, and a gifted teacher and articulate communicator. Ive taught hundreds of medical students, and they aren't often as articulate or make an impression like Juan Moreno. I have a friend who is not a martial artist but a respected sports psychologist. I had him give a workshop on sports psychology and performance enhancement for a Pan AM TKD tournament (the night before the tournament) which Juan attended, really just to be nice because he happened to be there. My friend then stayed to watch Juan teach a seminar. He told me that Juan was the most brilliant athlete he'd ever seen and the most gifted communicator or teacher in sports that he had seen. I believe that he is a 1st Dan also! Pursuing higher rank has not been as important to him. This may be a rumor, I don't know it for a fact. Well, enough praise. Obviously if he goes to Sydney I will be really rooting for him. Jose' ------------------------------ From: Robert Martin Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 08:38:40 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Tae Bo Tae Bo is aerobic training system created by Billy Blanks in the last few years. Not much good for self defense (in my opinion). Regards Bob Martin ------------------------------ From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 10:55:11 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: street fighting << Hi, I was just wondering, is Street Fighting a martial art and does anyone know of any good street fighting sites? thanks, - --kadin >> Kadin, Street Fighting is not really a martial art, but a lot of people are claiming to be street fighters and teach methods that are more geared to actual fighting without the tradition found in the arts that we classify as "Martial Arts" One person who teaches a "street fighter" program is Hock Hochheim. I've talked with Hock, read some of his stuff and have seen a few of his videos. For effective self-defense, he is teaching some good stuff. Very similar to a lot of what I teach, except I also teach a lot of tradition in my traditional HKD class. Hock calls his Hand to Hand program tapes "Street Fighter" and has 10 levels, and he will give rank in this. He also has a Filipino Combat program and a Knife Combatives program. Hock's site: Hocks Close Quarter Combat But if you really want to be a "Street Fighter" I suggest you read the editorial written by a friend of mine, Marc MacYoung, in the January 2000 issue of Blackbelt. There is far more to learn from the martial arts that how to be a street fighter. Yours in Training, Alain Burrese http://members.aol.com/aburrese/ ------------------------------ From: "Vaught, Clifford (CLF N6Y2K8)" Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 10:58:55 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #172 Nick, I see you're a 5th Gup, TSD, but from your Kihap story, perhaps you have other training and are accomplished in the martial arts than your present grade indicates. Nonetheless you are new to Korean martial arts. Please understand I'm not singling you out, however to describe Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan as an "offshoot" of TSD is to have been badly misinformed about the art - - kinda like the child giving birth to the mother. First of all, GM Hwang Kee founded the Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan November 9, 1945. My post in newsletter 172 explains the difference of TSD and MDK. There is only ONE Moo Duk Kwan. Those schools/organizations/systems that continue to use "Moo Duk Kwan" but are not affiliated with GM Hwang Kee are actually improperly using that name. Next issue - "different ruling organizations". Again there is only ONE Moo Duk Kwan and only ONE World Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan under GM Hwang Kee. His son, Master Hwang H.C., heads up t the U.S. SBD MDK Federation in Springfield, NJ. However, in the world of Tang Soo Do, there is NO "ruling organization" - there are a plethora of organizations whose founders broke away from GM Hwang Kee either because there was no U.S. organization (until 1975) or for other reasons I won't go into here. I include among those, Master Chuck Norris (National TSD Congress, UFAF), GM Jae Chul Shin (World TSD Association), Master Pat Johnson (National TSD Congress), GM C.S. Kim (International TSD Federation), GM Kang Uk Lee (International TSD Federation UK), GM Jae Joon Kim (World MDK TSD Federation), GM Cheezic (Cheezic TSD Federation), GM James Roberts (Roberts' Karate - TKD MDK), GM Ferraro (TSD Mi Guk Kwan Federation), and many other organizations too many to list here. The point being, there is no single entity that ascribes to be the "ruling" body of Tang Soo Do. Because of the splintering and the confusion surrounding Tang Soo Do in America, the U.S. Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation changed its name to U.S. Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation in 1995 and trademarked the name. It's not a new name worldwide - GM Hwang Kee changed the name in the '50's in Korea to prevent consusion between TSD and Tae Soo Do organizations and to highlight the more ancient art. I would suggest that you contact the SBD MDK Federation at 1-888-SOO-BAHK and get a copy of GM Hwang Kee's "History of the Moo Duk Kwan" to get it straight from the founder - that should give you "the truth"! Soo Bahk!! Cliff Vaught - ------------------------------ From: Nick McKenna Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 09:07:13 -0000 Subject: the_dojang: Tang Soo Do / Moo Duk Kwan / Soo Bahk Do ------------------------------ From: JSaportajr@aol.com Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 10:58:05 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #172 In a message dated 3/15/00 10:23:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << What do you mean when you say: "Chambering a block before blocking" ? I also have a question for all of you people. In my TKD school, there is a girl that teaches TAE BO (they also call it Aerobic - Self Defense), and many girls practice it. Although Tae Bo is a part of our TKD school, I'm wondering if it is an original Korean art, or it is some kind of mixture? In other words, has anyone of you ever heard for Tae Bo? >> 1) By chambering before a block, I mean when you do a knife hand block your hands are stretched behind you first then you block. Or an inner forearm block, your fist goes up by the side of your head first, then you block. Chambering may not be the right word for it. I had practiced that way in TKD class and in poomse so often it had become an automatic response. When I was in jujitsu class and someone would punch to my face i would start to block and they would say, "What the hell are you doing?! You don't have time to do that, your gonna get your face smashed!" It took me nearly a year to break that habit. 2) Regarding TaeBo, it is the creation of Billy Blanks who is a Taekwondo master, 7th dan, who had a very impressive career as a tournament fighter, including full contact fighting. It was not WTF style tournaments, more ITF and open style Karate. He is from around here originally, Massachusetts. Tae Bo isn't so much a martial art as an aerobic conditioning system. I hope your school has permission to use the name TaeBO, which is trademarked. Billy Blanks has a legion of lawyers combing the country for people using that name, then suing them. My brother in law's firm is defending several martial arts schools that are being sued by Billy Blanks for using the TaeBO name. People are trying to get around that by using names like TaeBox etc., which will probably be tested in court some ways. Im sure most people on the list know all this, and I may have some details wrong, but I thought you might be interested. Jose' ------------------------------ From: Gregory Giddins Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 08:58:13 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: High kicks >It all comes down to the fact that if you dont know HOW and WHEN to use high kicks, you can end up in a world of hurt ---- just the same as you can if you dont know how to use mid or low level kicks.< This is probably the best point being made about high kicks. And certainly the most important lesson all TKD students can learn. A funny story (kind of related to the topic) a co-worker relayed to me last week (a "retired" 2nd Dan TKD) is when he was on his land clearing some trees one of the trees he was working on started falling over on him, potentially pinning him between his fence and the tree. He reflexively threw a high side kick to "slow down" the tree and pushed off from his kick to get him sailing out of the way. It seemed to work for him very well, and he has never been more proud of his own abilities. Did the kick save his life? Maybe not. Was there another way to get out of the situation? Probably. Did the kick work in this situation? Definately. But most importantly, he got out of a potentially serious/dangerous situation with a smile and a thrill of "rediscovering" his abilities. The high kick may not have been used to cripple an attacker, but it sure became a useful survival tool nonetheless! Ok, back to work.... Greg Giddins Accounting Dept. Loronix Information Systems, Inc. gregoryg@loronix.com ------------------------------ From: Nick McKenna Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 16:12:33 -0000 Subject: Re: the_dojang: Tang Soo Do / Moo Duk Kwan / Soo Bahk Do Dear All >Actually, we think Subakki was an ancient martial art of Korea. We know >nothing of it. Soo Bahk Do is just a name that GM Hwang Kee came up with >when he encountered the old name of Subakki. Other than a similar name there >is no relationship. Tang Soo Do is and means Karate-do. I'm not sure about the ancient name Subakki, but I can categorically say that karate-do does not mean Tang Soo Do. Tang Soo Do means "Way Of The Chinese Hand" and Karate-Do means "Way Of The Empty Hand". Tang Soo Do shares many traits with Karate, but it also draws from Wing Chun kung-fu and other arts. In particular, the high circular kicks of Tang Soo Do distinguish it from japanese karate. Having said that, there are many common factors (I have studied Tang Soo Do and Shotokan karate). The forms / kata are similar at the basic level. The pyon ahn forms are clearly related to the heian forms. In honesty, when I explain Tang Soo Do to non-martial artists, I describe it as korean karate. I think in Grand Master Kang Uk Lee's book he says Soo Bahk Do is the korean martial art - but I don't remember clearly. As I also said in my post, the truth has become distorted by time and politics. I would really like some guidance on finding out about the history of Tang Soo Do, so any and all sources of info are welcome! Thanks to all, Nick. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 8:41:55 PST Subject: Re: the_dojang: Tang Soo Do / Moo Duk Kwan / Soo Bahk Do > I'm not sure about the ancient name Subakki, but I can categorically say > that karate-do does not mean Tang Soo Do. Tang Soo Do means "Way Of The > Chinese Hand" and Karate-Do means "Way Of The Empty Hand". Yes, a common point of confusion. Check Funakoshi. The graphs romanized as Karate-do originally meant China Hand Way. With the increased nationalistic fervor in Japan in the early part of the 20th century, a popular art with the name China Hand Way was not a good idea, so the name was changed to Empty Hand Way. However the romanization turned out the same, Karate-do. Thus the relationship of Tang Soo Do and Kong Soo Do. Tang Soo Do is the romanization of the way a Korean pronounces the graphs for Karate-do (China Hand Way). Kong Soo Do is the romanization fo the way a Korean pronounces the graphs for Karate-do (Empty Hand Way). The CDK first used the art name Tang Soo Do in Korea, and then the MDK later followed suit by using the same name for their art (as mentioned by GM Hwang is his excellent History of the Moo Duk Kwan, a must purchase for any MDKer). Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: HKDTodd@aol.com Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 11:28:26 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #172 In a message dated 3/15/00 10:22:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << I like hapkido but sometimes find it to be too technique oriented >> From my experience most Hapkido systems are very tech. oriented with alot of emphasise on how many tech. do you know from this grab or that. I personally like Principle based Hapkido, it is more difficult in the beginning but more bennificial in the long run because you learn more about how to use Hapkido against an unwilling attacker and about theories of motion, yours and your opponents. Wha - Harmony Won - Complete Yu - Dynamic Todd Miller Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc. ------------------------------ From: "Silke Schulz" Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 08:39:31 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #172 Mitar wrote: >I also have a question for all of you people. In my TKD school, there is >a girl that teaches TAE BO (they also call it Aerobic - Self Defense), and >many girls practice it. Although Tae Bo is a part of our TKD school, I'm >wondering if it is an original Korean art, or it is some kind of mixture? >In other words, has anyone of you ever heard for Tae Bo? Ok, I'll bite....Tae Bo is NOT an original Korean martial art. It isn't a martial art at all. Tae Bo is a trademarked name given by Billy Blanks to his own version of aerobic kickboxing. It is similar to many other aerobic kickboxing classes out there like CardioKarate, which is licensed by NAPMA, and PowerKickbox by someone else, etc. I hope that answers your question?? Silke ------------------------------ From: "Brad Bezoni" Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 10:47:04 +0600 Subject: [none] a girl that teaches TAE BO (they also call it Aerobic - Self Defense), and many girls practice it. Although Tae Bo is a part of our TKD school, I'm wondering if it is an original Korean art, or it is some kind of mixture? In other words, has anyone of you ever heard for Tae Bo? Tae Bo was started by Billy Blanks in California. Mr. Blanks is a very well accomplished marital artist (and a pretty decent actor as well), but IMO Tae Bo is more of a cardio workout than a martial art (I have all 4 of the original tapes, and the advanced tape is enough to kick your butt royally!). I have heard of some people saying that Tae Bo could be used as self defense, but from viewing the tapes I find this hard to believe - - everything is set to music and more emphasis is placed on sets of movements designed to work specific muscles. The closest relation that Tae Bo has to martial arts is that it uses kicks and punches for its excercises instead of the normal "step, step, turn, turn" of aerobics. For more information check out the Tae Bo site at http://www.taebo.com Hope this helps clear things up! Brad Bezoni ------------------------------ From: SunBiNim@aol.com Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 12:10:04 EST Subject: the_dojang: "Kong" In a message dated 3/15/00 9:23:13 AM Central Standard Time,S. W. Wee writes: << Depending on how it is used, this same "Kong" character can refer to emptiness, void, air, space etc. >> When "Kong" means "strong", is that a different character? Should it then be spelled and pronounced "kang" instead of "kong"? Mr. Choi mentioned that he heard my friend Mike Reed talk about our Han Mu Do "Yuh, Shim, Kong, Kwan," phrase (relaxed mind, strong punch) that we use when performing techniques. That is a fundemental principle of Han Mu Do. Another fundamental principle that we study (at Black Belt level) is "Mu Shim, Mu Kwan" (no mind, no punch). The first principle can be explained, as Mr. Choi did an excellent job of. The second has to be found on one's own. Han, Steve Kincade ------------------------------ From: Dave Weller Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 11:17:31 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re:DDJ V7 #171 - Different styles JSaportajr@aol.com wrote: > Subject: the_dojang: Re:A request for Mr Saporta -response to Mitar (long winded) > Regarding the self defense value of Taekwondo, I think you have to > distinguish ITF form WTF. I have no doubt in the self defense value of the > old style Taekwondo - the old style Korean Masters would have had no problem > defending themselves in any situation. Their power is awesome. I do struggle > with some doubts about WTF Taekwondo training in relation to self defense. > Let me mention some positives first. It is a great sport. Also, the full > contact fighting for tournaments is good preparation for a fight, you know > what it is like to kick someone hard and be kicked hard. Some martial artists > go into a fight never having made contact, while in our Taekwondo sparring > class we really fight, full contact, though no punches to the head, on a > regular basis. The feeling of contact wont be a big surprise. It seems to me > that many Jujitsu and Hapkido techniques such as joint locks can only be > practiced with a cooperative partner to avoid injury, so the full contact > fighting in WTF may have a realism advantage. I also get a better aerobic > work out in WTF TKD class than any other martial art. Jujitsu (it was not > BJJ) was GREAT self defense training, but i sometimes didn't break a sweat in > class and I started gaining weight. Jose, As an elderly (44) trainee in WTF TKD I have some thoughts regarding your post. I must agree wholeheartedly about the aerobic benefits of WTF TKD training, I have been to ONE class in 6 years of training that did not cause intense heavy breathing and copious sweat , and that was because I held back due to an injury. I go into a sort of withdrawal if I am not able to get to a class. I do agree in general with your assessment of WTF TKD as it relates to tournament fighting. There is little relation between the padded, rule laden world of tournament fighting VS a street brawl or self defense situation. With the few exceptions you mention any one who approached an out of the ring fight "by the rules" would have their rear handed to them on a plate. But I must disagree that JUST because one is trained in a WTF school that their self defense skills are somehow lacking or inadequate. I think it is more a matter of your instructors or master's teaching style and philosophy. The master of my school has competed in many tournaments and has been successful and if his students are interested in tournament training he and the jr. master that assists him are willing and capable instructors in that style of fighting. But in general we spend a good deal of time in each class working on self defense of a real world nature. Defenses against grabs, punches, multiple attackers, sitting ,standing, weapons attacks, etc. etc. . We are taught hand techniques, sweeps, throws, break falls, joint locks, .. anything that might assist us in staying alive in a dangerous situation..[ plus, with all the aerobic training, I feel pretty good about being able to out-run and out sweat most any bad guy ; ) ] I am quite happy with the training I am receiving here, and since there is only one choice in the little town I live in, I fell lucky to get such well rounded instruction. I guess my point being that one particular style or subset or whatever is not necessarily a limiting factor, provided you get instruction from someone with an open mind and the knowledge to teach outside "the comfort zone". Now, please don't take this as some sort of broadside against any other martial art, I have only limited experience in other arts (I took a couple years of Judo in college, a loooooong time ago.) I can hardly deny that as a school of thought and practice the arts that include grappling and other hand to hand techniques are going to be more useful in practice than arts that rely or focus on 360 jumping spinning techniques. (except the most talented and strong among them, as you mention) .. there is an excellent article I found on the web (on one of the martial arts resources mentioned in the DDJ, I just can't remember which one.. If pressed I will retrace my steps and send the URL, or could email the article as I have downloaded it to my mac for reference) Toward a Broader Taekwondo Curriculum A Structured Incorporation of Basic Falls, Joint Locks, and Throws by Brian J. Wright & Charles L. Thornton They give a structured approach to teaching these techniques within a TKD framework. Very interesting and informative. > My TKD teacher is always challenging me to show him what I am learning in Hapkido > to > show me how it doesn't work. He feels if it takes more than one or two steps > max its too elaborate and wont work, that only the simplest techniques work. Being the simple sort myself, I must concur, but dog gone it I sure do love to watch some of those fancy techniques. My teacher has shown us some of the more elaborate (at least they look elaborate to me) Kung Fu techniques like "the dance of death" and "flashing daggers" .... they seem to all involve breaking someone's neck at least three times, pulling out their heart and two stepping on their liver ... YOUCH.. This all of course is MHO subject to correction, reversal, or outright deletion. Thanks Dave Weller (WTF TKD student) “Practice a thousand hours and you learn self discipline. Practice ten thousand hours and you learn about yourself.” Myamoto Musashi ------------------------------ From: Dave Steffen Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 11:53:18 -0700 (MST) Subject: the_dojang: ITF politics (was: USTU corruption) > From: MichaelChoi@aol.com > I will not get into specifics, but I held a high position within > the 1993 World Taekwondo Championships Organizing Committee. I > worked with the YH Park brothers and Mr. Jung Hoon Kim (son of > Dr. Un Yong Kim) on a daily basis. Because of the hypocrisy and > lack of integrity, I have left WTF Taekwondo. We (Mr. Robert Rhone and I) left the WTF for some similar reasons, although we later learned that our problems had much more to do with the particular WTF group we were with, than with the organization as a whole. > I practice hapkido because there are no tournament politics. From > what I read of ITF textbooks and articles, that organization seems > to have more honor, but I'm not an ITF guy. Well, I'm solidy an ITF now, so I'd like to think you're right. (I'm also not an objective observer. ;-) I've found that the standards of conduct in the ITF are, in general, very high. Sure, we have the occasional instructor who does iffy things, but generally they get weeded out pretty quickly. IMHO the ITF's biggest problem is money; we don't have very much at all. Which is why it takes ~6 months to get a black belt certificate, instead of the 2-3 I hear it takes to get Kukkiwon certificates. We just don't have the streamlined beurocracy. In all honesty, we _do_ have (more than?) our fair share of politics, some of which comes out in competition. There are factions in the ITF that have serious issues with each other. But as far as _honesty_ and such, I'm very happy with what I've seen. On a slightly unrelated note, what ever happened with those big scandals at the USTU HQ in Colorado Springs? There was one big thing going on about money (the IRS and FBI were on that one), plus wasn't Sang Lee accused of sexual assault on a female athlete? - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Steffen Wave after wave will flow with the tide Dept. of Physics And bury the world as it does Colorado State University Tide after tide will flow and recede steffend@lamar.colostate.edu Leaving life to go on as it was... - Peart / RUSH "The reason that our people suffer in this way.... is that our ancestors failed to rule wisely". -General Choi, Hong Hi ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 11:01:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [none] ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #173 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.