From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #182 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Sun, 19 March 2000 Vol 07 : Num 182 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: Hwa Soo Do the_dojang: Traditional versus contemporary instruction techniques the_dojang: Bob Folett the_dojang: Thanks All... Re: the_dojang: Re: Hwa Soo Do [none] ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 800+ members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JSaportajr@aol.com Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 17:15:13 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Hwa Soo Do In a message dated 3/18/00 5:03:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << It does seem that in later years GM Hwang has gone back a bit to his Hwa Soo Do root >> Could you tell us more about Hwa Soo Do? I'm not familiar with it. Jose' ------------------------------ From: Philip Usatine Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 21:17:36 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Traditional versus contemporary instruction techniques Hi all. I'm a 2nd gup (brown belt) in Hapkido and have studied the art for about three years and also have some limited exposure to other arts (esp. Ju Jutsu, but also some Aikido, Karate, TSD). I've been a lurker on this list for the majority of that time and I've been constantly impressed with the experience and knowledge of the people on this list and the typical high level of discussion. I'm posting for the first time to see if I can tap into a little of that knowledge out there and maybe start an interesting discussion in the process. My question(s) deal with approaches taken to instruction and my own observations of different styles of instruction that I've come across. I characterize these styles of instruction as 'traditional' versus 'contemporary' for lack of better terminology. My definition of traditional: A. There is a relatively formal curriculum where as a student progresses through belt levels the student is introduces to a broader array of techniques and combinations of techniques (through forms and through self-defense/locking/throwing/etc. techniques). B. Emphasis is placed on physical mastery of the techniques at each belt-level without much in depth analysis of the mechanics of the techniques. (Harking back to recent discussion of 'empty mind' principle.) C. It is expected that as the student progresses, his/her mastery of more and more basic techniques will grow to the point where he will be able to combine and apply the techniques FLUIDLY in ways that may not have been specifically trained for through forms/self-defense. D. There is usually emphasis on learning the language and philosophical aspects of the art. I have also come across in my travels a type of instruction which offers an alternative approach, what I call a contemporary approach but I also think that this might be categrorized as 'Westernized'. My definition of contemporary or Westernized instruction A. There may or may not be a formal curriculum - this isn't a key attribute. Some contemporary schools still appear to follow a formal curriculum although seemingly less rigid than the traditional. B. Emphasis is placed in two areas: physical mastery of techniques, and understanding of the principles of physics and biology that the techniques exploit, generally accompanied by variations which can be used to exploit those same principles. C. It is expected that as the student progresses, his/her mastery of more and more basic techniques, and understanding of the principles behind those techniques will grow to the point where he will be able to combine and apply the techniques FLUIDLY in ways that may not have been specifically trained for. D. There may or may not be an emphasis on learning the language and philosophical aspects of the art. For me, the key difference between what I am characterizing as traditional versus contemporary instruction comes in the actual approach to teaching technique as a student progresses. In a nutshell, the traditional instruction (by my definition) relies on the 'empty mind' principle, training the body to move, act, and react in ways that are effective in various kinds of situations without necessarily training the mind to understand (beyond the obvious and intuitive) how or why the action is effective. Contemporary instruction attempts to impart an understanding of what makes the techniques work. I believe that there is a continuum here, and that the two extremes I have defined are not real world. I train in a Dojang which appears to me to be relatively traditional in its approach to instruction (we learn basic pressure points and general instruction on targets and such, but usually not much more verbal detail). I can vouch for its effectiveness. Even with the limited EXPLICIT insight that I have been given into the mechanics of the techniques that I have been doing for three years, I have been continually improving over time and now I find that I am getting to the point where I can not only apply the tehnichues I know to reasonable effect, but that I have a feel for how different techniques can flow and be combined and used in ways which I may or may not have been taught. (Hopefully, I'll eventually get to the point where this can happen with no hesitation or thought whatsoever, at which time I'll feel that I could actually use my art in a real world situation). Being a computer professional, though, (and thus prone to thinking too much :-) I have occasionally chafed at the idea that I was learning these techniques by rote without necessarily having real insight into 'the big picture'. My nature has thus led me to investigate other schools where they take a more contemporary approach and to wonder about how effective it is to learn using this other approach. So now for the questions :-) 1. Does my categorization of instruction styles make sense? Are there better ways to look at this? 2. In my view of the traditional instruction approach the student goes through some phases: a. Figure out how to position and move your body effectively. b. Learn specific techniques to attack or defend in specific circumstances. c. Lots of b. d. Figure out / learn how similar techniques applied in different circumstances are related. e. Learn how to apply existing or similar techniques in new / unrehearsed circumstances and begin to master the art rather than the technique. f. .... Don't know... still working on e and f. I picture the student of the contemporary instruction working pretty much the same, even though the contemporary art supplies more raw information, the student still needs to progress through all these steps to train the body and achieve the 'empty mind' So, is this assessment of how a student in a traditional settting learns an art accurate? How does the same process work in a contemporary setting? 3. What are differing opinions on the benefits / drawbacks of these different approaches? Does one give faster results? Are there other approaches which may be equally or more effective (as measured by the time it takes to be able to apply your art and achieve a level of mastery)? I'm sorry for the length of this post. Hopefully, it can spur some interesting examination and discussion (even if my ideas are way off base :-) Kansa Ham Nida phil usatine ------------------------------ From: foxdragon@cuttingedge.net Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 22:05:23 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Bob Folett the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com wrote: > > ------------------------------ > > From: JSaportajr@aol.com > Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 12:16:22 EST > Subject: the_dojang: Re: an old friend out here If Bob hasn't > spoken up out here yet, he has a very interesting back ground, with black > belts in several different original Kwans from his military days in Korea. He > also kicked my butt pretty well in the old geezer's division of a state > championship about five or so years ago. Jose' Welcome Sir. It sounds like you have a very interesting history. I would like to hear more about it. Donna - -- Me and my shadow ------------------------------ From: David Gordon Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 10:10:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: the_dojang: Thanks All... Due to a job move, I will be unsubscribing later this week. For the most part, I read alot of comments here and will miss them. But, as soon as I get email again, I'll be back. I would like to Thank the Webmaster for the site and letting me subscribe and I would also like to thank Rich, my senior Instructor and Dana, who will be replacing me as Instructor in our class. It has been a fun-filled, learning 7 years! Again, Thanks. - -- David Gordon, 2nd Dan, TKD ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 8:28:42 PST Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: Hwa Soo Do > << It does seem that in later years GM Hwang has gone back a bit to his > Hwa Soo Do root >> > Could you tell us more about Hwa Soo Do? I'm not familiar with it. Jose' Not much is known other than what GM Hwang mentions in his MDK history book. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 08:14:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: [none] ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #182 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.