From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #203 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Tues, 28 March 2000 Vol 07 : Num 203 In this issue: the_dojang: Report Cards the_dojang: Re: Reasonable Debate versus political correctness (Report cards in Dojang issue) the_dojang: Re: intro the_dojang: Report Cards, Testings, & Grades the_dojang: report cards the_dojang: Re: Report Cards in Dojangs and Martial Arts Centers... the_dojang: Re: report cards for testing the_dojang: Women only dojangs the_dojang: School grades & martial arts? the_dojang: Permission and Approval the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #202 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #202 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #201 [none] ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 800 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Silke Schulz" Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 07:07:17 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Report Cards Ok, I'm going to jump into the fray here. I don't require report cards for testing. I do, however, let parents know that IF they would like their child to bring in their report card, and IF they have a B or better grade average, I will award their child with an "academic achiever" patch. While I wish to encourage academic excellence, I don't require it. I firmly believe that it will, with encouragement, improve with the increased self-confidence and self-discipline that comes with martial arts training. Many of my students are ADD/ADHD--normally not students who excel in school, even those who are bright. The martial arts are touted as a path to help with the behavior modification and self-confidence of such children. I couldn't possibly make their academic performance a requirement for advancement. If they drop out because they do not test and get promoted through the ranks, they won't gain a thing from being in the classes in the first place. However, if any of my students are caught fighting, I will take their belts away for a month. If it happens around testing, then no testing (because you have to have a belt for one of those). Just some thoughts from my small corner of the world, Silke Schulz ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 07:13:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Reasonable Debate versus political correctness (Report cards in Dojang issue) One poster noted (Report Cards in Dojang Thread): Response: There are certain issues which have no correct answer. If you feel that checking report cards works for you...fine. If I was an instructor I would consider other reward mechanisms. Ultimately you could be driving away some students who will never live up to your standards. Just my opinion. I am nothing more than a speck of sand amid a large sandy beach. McD... P.S. On to other issues. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:22:57 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: intro hi mary! welcome to the list. (wow, ray! are you offering calling cards or something to sign up to the list....we've had a lotta new posters lately!) sounds like youre having a great time with hapkido. many folks on the list here can tell you how it's been a boone to them and they now eat, sleep, drink hapkido. you'll find beginners to grandmasters in taekwondo on this list and all are easy going, relaxed, caring individuals who would be glad to help you meet your goals. take care and enjoy! melinda ChunjiDo -pe rsonal homepage http://hometown.aol.com/chunjido/homehtmlindex.html Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply - business page http://hometown.aol.com/chajonshim/ma4sale.html Paidforsurf.com - - Main - get paid 75cents/hr to surf the net...i do! Looking for enlightenment is like looking for a flashlight, when all you need the flashlight for is to find the flashlight. ------------------------------ From: David Beck Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 09:24:31 -0600 (CST) Subject: the_dojang: Report Cards, Testings, & Grades I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand: no we are not their parents, we are not responsible for their behavior outside the dojang, we're not responsible for how they do in school, and we shouldn't be putting additional pressure/requirements on something that is completely separate from martial arts training. On the other hand, as an instructor I am an authority figure and a role model. That can have a *huge* effect on their behavior and attitude. I personally don't use a military type atmosphere in my dojang; I think that discipline imposed from without for 3 hours a week in a group setting isn't enough. In several weeks apart from the rest of the world, yes. But not in society. Discipline must be self-discipline; I can teach them how, but they must do it themself. It's a matter of WILL. Outside of certain physical and mental handicaps, everyone CAN make black belt, not everyone WILL. The same is true for good grades or any goal. As instructors we've all heard every excuse imaginable. The ones who persevere, who have enough desire to overcome any setbacks, that work as hard as it takes...they are the ones I want as students. Of course not all will do that. I try to make the non-dedicated students into dedicated ones, but I can't do it for them; they have to WILL it and do it for themselves. I encourage my students to achieve good grades by giving an extra reward, a TKD Honor Student patch, to those students that make their school's honor roll. But I don't require any particular grades to continue studying martial arts or to test. David N. Beck Internet:dbeck@usa.alcatel.com WATT Lead Engineer Alcatel USA 1000 Coit Road Plano, Texas 75075 ** Opinions expressed are not those of Alcatel USA ** ------------------------------ From: "rich hodder" Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 07:47:27 PST Subject: the_dojang: report cards I seem to set off a fire storm of reaction to the arbitrary report card system of the public school system as it involves martial arts schools. I am sorry. My views of all things are strictly my own and I do not expect any to take them. I was under the impression that the person who origianly brought up the issue was seeking some other view points. I gave mine. They not agree and that's fine, but I believe in them. It may not be the best way, just my way. I do not believe that martial arts students stop practicing excellence when they leave the dojang. Only my bias opinion, Rich the wise walk with their face to the earth. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "Mark M. Smith" Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:07:42 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Report Cards in Dojangs and Martial Arts Centers... Just thought I would weigh in on the report card debate. For the record I do not require report cards for testing because I find it difficult to judge between the student who does not try and gets A's from the student who struggles to get B's. This being said I do expect my students to put in their best effort in the home, school and dojang. At 07:18 AM 3/28/00 -0800, you wrote: >From: Ken McDonough > >Both Vinny and Vito were not academic scholars and never gonna be. They >were >going to be either "wise guys" or blue collar workers. They may go into >fields such as electrician, plumbing, construction, restaurant, and so >forth. Nothing wrong with those honorable professions. I find this a little patronizing. I find that kids perform to the level you expect of them. If you expect they will grow up to be a criminal do not be suprized when they do. There are plenty of examples of kids who started as Vinny and Vito's and ended up some place other than Ozone Park. Often they can point to an adult who insipred them by expecting more from them than becoming a gangster or joining an "honorable profession". >Now, if Vinny and Vito came to some Dojang and the Martial Arts instructor >wanted to see their report cards, what do you think Vito's father would >say. And, God forbid, if that Martial Arts instructor told Vito he could >not test until he gets his grades up like little Sally and Hymie (the honor >student). Do you think that would go over in Little Italy in Ozone Park, >New York ? Hmnnn. What is the point here. We should not expect things that would upset members of a crime family? I do not think you meant that even though it is what you said. > I like Vito and Vinny. They are go to guys and loyal friends. But, they will laugh in your >face if you tell them "...how come you got a C in history...you can't test. They may laugh at this, but I often find they curse the people who reap the benefits of getting good grades. Our society rewards academic achievement. May be if someone helped them understand how they could succeed, they would. >Do you have the background to >enter into these subtle distinctions ? Do you understand pyschometric >measurements and other variables. I often believe we have let the "professionals" intimidate us into believing we do not understand, therefore we cannot have a positive impact. Again kids perform to the expectations set for them. Given a chance to perform and clear expectations kids tend to succeed. I have seen this time and time again. Do not be intimidated. You can make a difference. >It is not that easy to merely reward merit based on grades in an outside >elective activity. I agree. Finally, just as we can provide a strong positive impact on students we can also cause harm. I know everyone who has been involved in the martial arts for a period of time has their stories of instructors/schools who do more harm than good. I think it is this worry that makes these debates so vigorous. My impression though is that the people who are passionate enough to debate the issue are not the ones to worry about. It is the people who are so convinced they are right that they do not feel debate at all that are worrisome. So, though I find I disagree with some of Ken McDonough's opinions/statements. I would probably recommend him, since I am convinced he would have a positive impact on his students. Mark M. Smith Merrimack, NH email: msmith@p2software.com ------------------------------ From: Thayne_Coffman@trilogy.com Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:18:25 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: report cards for testing > << That all being said, the way my KJN does it (which seems like the best to > me, of course :-) ) is to have lists that the kids can sign if they got all > A's or only A's and B's, and their names are listed in the monthly school > newsletter. >> > > Well, first you say why discriminate against a child with a learning > disability and then you don't list them in your own newsletter ... only the > ones making all A's or B's? That isn't congruent. > Fair comment - I didn't really think about it that way. I guess I feel like there's a difference between "punishing" the kids that aren't doing well by not listing their names on the newsletter, and "punishing" them by holding them back in testing. Both will probably seperate the LD kids from the on-level kids, but it seemed to me like holding them back (even if they were respectful in the dojang, keeping up in the dojang, etc.) was more severe, and I don't know that I agree with it. I definitely agree with your 'to each his own' comment, though. ------------------------------ From: Kas001@aol.com Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:38:59 EST Subject: the_dojang: Women only dojangs In a message dated 3/25/2000 6:01:34 PM Central Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: > > I agree. I don't like segregation. I know there are women on this list who > probably think I'm a traitor, but if we're truly seeking to be treated as > equals, we should *act* like the equals we are. > Amen. There are times when I have sought out women to practice/train with and I have also attended a women's only self-defense/rape prevention course. Both can useful, however, I feel my training and/or anyone elses would be incomplete if I did not have the opportunity to train with men. A variety of training partners (all shapes, sizes, flexibilities, strengths, and shapes) helps one determine when and where a technique will work and if it is being executed correctly. Any fears I or any other woman may have about fighting with or being attacked by a man are unlikely to be overcome unless faced. IMHO, we (women) take a step backwards when we choose to segregate ourselves. We have fought for years to be treated equally and have equal access to all sorts of things incl. martial arts training and I would hate to see women step back and classify themselves as incapable of training with men (current practitioners would probably not feel this way, but after a couple of MA generations women who only trained with women might). Yes, sometimes we are different, and we all have our own strenghts and weaknesses, but learning to deal with them and/or overcome them is part of the battle for both sexes. Now, as for the attraction of new students, what about offering coed or female only intro classes (first few months). It might give them a comfort zone and allow them to get their feet wet (those who choose can opt for the coed right away) allowing for a more gradual transition to latter coed classes. If it is truely an issue in attracting women, this may provide the bridge some need while recognising the need to progress to a level where they can comfortable deal with both sexes. I don't know if it would work, but it might be something to think about. ------------------------------ From: Kas001@aol.com Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:39:06 EST Subject: the_dojang: School grades & martial arts? In a message dated 3/28/2000 12:33:10 AM Central Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: > Response: While I admire the intent to have children in school excel, I > question whether the grade requirement in an "outside" activity should > truly come under the ambit of a private Dojang or Martial Arts school. > Would > we expect the baseball Little League or my son's Youth Basketball Coach to > ask to see children's report cards ? I have a 12 year old and a 15 year > old. The 15 year old's grades were dropping. However, I asked the school > guidance counselor to work with me and the teachers. I did not ask his > martial arts instructor. However, I would not mind if the martial arts > instructor casually asked my son how he was doing in school. > Sounds like you are a caring parent who really stays on top of your childrens education issues. UNFORTUNATELY, not everyone is the same. Even some parents who do care look to and or need others for additional support. I believe that martial arts have helped a lot of children find focus, improve confidence, encourage respect for elders, etc., etc. All good things. I have also heard this sentiment echoed by parents who comment on the improvement in their child's attitude and attention levels in school. Maybe everyone doesn't need it (if they have parents who care as much as you do and are skilled in accomplishing these goals by themselves). Some do. Many martial arts schools also advertise the physical, mental, spiritual connection; increased discipline; better grades; higher self-confidence; etc. They may hand out task lists, check report cards, etc. to reinforce parents and teachers. It is great if that is what the parents are seeking. If not, perhaps these types of schools are not what your (universal) child needs or you want. Great, pick another. No big deal. IMHO, Kim P.S. My track and basketball coaches always checked report cards (even in the pre-elegibility requirement days). They were trying to make successful people, not just successful atheletes (a lot of coaches are kind of like that). Some kids probably didn't need it, some did. If they didn't, no big deal, if they did, thank God someone was there for them. ------------------------------ From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:52:43 EST Subject: the_dojang: Permission and Approval In a message dated 3/28/00 7:05:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << I am forced to say that this policy is a bit intrusive.. it should only be done if all parties involved are willing to go along with it.. this means the students, teachers and parents being okay for the loss of privacy. >> Everyone who calls or walks in the door for information is told what is done here ... upfront! We don't hide anything from anyone. If they decide they don't want to study here ... fine. But we don't just "spring" this on them out of no where. It is done with their permission and approval or they wouldn't be in our particular school, they would be in the one down the street. Illona ------------------------------ From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:07:28 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #202 In a message dated 3/28/00 7:05:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Response: There will be no winners and losers in the "Report Card in Dojang/ Martial Arts School" debate. >> My feelings exactly ... so I am through going on and on about it. Interesting ideas, tho. Thanks for all the input. :-) Illona ------------------------------ From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:11:06 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #202 In a message dated 3/28/00 7:05:26 AM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << This feeling of passion is so new and bizarre for my personality... I'm a very unathletic bookish computer person. But something about HapKiDo calls me, and makes me want to push myself. I am surprised at some of the things I have been able to do! It is remarkable and has given me (good heavens) a new respect for this body God gave me. >> Welcome to the group, Mary ... ! And I know what you mean about the passion of it all ! Exactly how I felt the first time I walked into a dojo/dojang and took my first lesson! And it is how I feel today ... 30 years later ... and it gets better and better with time ! Illona ------------------------------ From: Oregfightingarts@aol.com Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 15:20:23 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #201 << Since when did we become the parents of our students? >> I agree that we should not 'become' parents to a student...but the plain and simple is that some parents are unable to provide certain things insofar as education/training/counseling is concerned. I care about my students in and out of the dojang. I will extend my time and abilites to those who need. When I was 9, my parents decided to go through a very traumatic and messy divorce. This whole process really messed up my 10 year old head. I feel I am where I am today because my Sensei realized my situation, and took a proactive position in my life to be sure I was on the right track. The time he spent with me showed me that someone actually cared about ME, and it gave me a chance to have help putting things in perspective...mental and martial. I was only in his dojo for a year and a half, and now there are thousands of miles between us. I return to his dojo every year to train, and he lightheartedly trys to make fun of my TKD...but I think I have made the Karate master afraid of my TKD kicks :) Bottom line---this person helped when I needed it. I once tried to thank him and he said he would accept the thanks only if some day I would extend the same caring to one of my students. Martial Arts is part of my life, and I realized long ago that it is more than just kicks and punches...it also is helping others along the paths of courtesy-integrity-perseverance-selfcontrol & indomidable spirit. Sensei helped with my spirit, I will be forever thankful to him. Thats why I get involved in my students lives. But, to each his own. Mark C. Gajdostik OFA/TNT ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:25:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [none] ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #203 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.