From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #218 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Sun, 2 April 2000 Vol 07 : Num 218 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #217 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #196 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #207 the_dojang: Turning the other cheek vs open aggression (Long Response) the_dojang: Kudos for Dojang Digest the_dojang: Re: Pandora's Box the_dojang: Re: Turning the other cheek the_dojang: Looking for Info on ACL injuries Re: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #217 [none] ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 800 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CKCtaekwon@cs.com Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 10:42:46 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #217 In a message dated 4/2/00 9:32:32 AM Central Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Nice gesture, but as many of us who've had run-in's with him know... once you make his black list, you're on it forever - no matter how wrong he is. His world is no fun for him otherwise. Hi Glenn. >> Who is this Glenn ? ------------------------------ From: Chuck Sears Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 10:36:47 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #196 > > From: MissIllona@aol.com > Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 21:33:07 EST > Subject: the_dojang: Re: Board Breaks > > In a message dated 3/25/00 4:02:25 PM Pacific Standard Time, > the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: > > << there are days when you can't even buy a board break. Hey, it happens > (it's happened to me twice). You don't give up. You practice harder and test > again next time and get them. Here's a good example: at last World > Championships, we had a 7th Degree Senior Master testing for 8th Degree. He > didn't get his breaks and he no-changed. He tested again at the Spring > Nationals and got the breaks. Perserverance is what it's all about. >> > > What board breaks didn't you get ? What board breaks was the Master required > to do ? > Sorry about the delay in responding. In the ATA, there are required board breaking combinations required for promotion, and these combinations are designed to challenge the students at their current rank. ATA has set out the combinations up to the rank of 4th Degree Black Belt. 5th Degrees and above must design their own breaking combinations and submit them to Headquarters for approval prior to testing for their next rank. These can either be new combinations employing advanced techniques, or existing combinations that have had the difficulty increased by adding boards (adult males are required to break 2 boards per station, for example, so one might take an existing combination and break 3 or 4 boards per station to increase the difficulty). ------------------------------ From: Chuck Sears Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 10:44:39 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #207 > > From: "Mitar" > Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 01:46:18 +0100 > Subject: the_dojang: Re: WTF Sparring Rules > > ...snip... > > P. S. Since there is a thread going about MA instructors interfering in > children's personal life or not, I would just like to say that > I'm personaly against it, unless it is agreed with the student's > parents and the student himself. I won't go into details, because > some other Dojang_Digest members that have the same viewpoint as > I do have already explained it more than well enough (Mr McDonough, > Mr Groff, Mr Bernat, etc., etc., etc.). > I do have a question for those who have the opposite opinion on > this. In what child's age do you stop to act like their supervisor? > Do you require report cards from the elementary school children, > secondary school children, university students? Maybe all of them? > If you don't require it from any of these categories, please tell > me why not. > In our school, we require report cards from all students who fall into ATA's tournament classification of "Junior" students (16 and under). We reward good report cards with gold stars for the uniform and work with students and parents to bring up grades on those that aren't so hot. We do this because (IMHO) Taekwondo comes in 3rd place. First is family and second is school. Getting a good education is so critical to a child's future. We work hard to make sure our students achieve excellence in everything they attempt, especially school. Besides, education is what helps develop the mind, and we teach to the total human being: body, mind, spirit. ------------------------------ From: "Keith F. Iris, Jr. MSE, NCC" Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 13:47:04 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Turning the other cheek vs open aggression (Long Response) Early in my studies of Tae KwonDo in this country, I learned from my sabumnim that there were limits to the use of force. For instance, if I were in a situation where I faced aggression, my response should be enough to distance me from the situation, USING FORCE ONLY IF NECESSARY. Whether I am physically sparring, or verbally sparring, it is the same. Someone may hurl insults, attempt to belittle me, but it is up to me when it comes to my response. If a drunk throws a punch at me, and misses, am I justified in breaking his nose?? The same goes if an individual looks at me and calls me coward - am I being a coward by not getting involved in the escalation of events, or am I being brave by standing my ground and maintaining myself? I am well familiar with militarism - I am a life member of both the VFW and the DAV, and do not feel that just because someone provokes me, that I am required to respond with hostility. There is more to being a practitioner of a martial art than the martial - there is also the art. It is more than being able to cause someone great bodily harm, there is much philosophy involved. Part of that philosophy, for me, is to decide which battles to fight. Is it necessary for me to put forth energy and effort in a manner that causes someone harm, or, am I able to walk away from the situation knowing that I am not falling into the trap being set by my potential adversary? I believe that water sinks to it's own level, and, if I want to be seen as the same as my adversary, then I will have to do some sinking. Keith 2nd Dan TKD Keith F. Iris, Jr. MSE, NCC Integrative Consultants ------------------------------ From: CBAUGHN@aol.com Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 15:55:10 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Kudos for Dojang Digest Last week I spoke with another ex-TKD-netter who gave the opinion that TKD-net was really a much more interesting forum than the others and had some real genius in its posts. I countered with a reply that perhaps that was because the other person was most interested in TKD and USTU, which (at the time I was involved with it) is what the Net was most involved with. In contrast, Dojang Digest is about Korean Martial Arts, which includes considerably more than TKD. Because I personally do not know anyone who takes or teaches Hapkido, for instance, I have less interest in the Digest when the threads are running heavily toward Hapkido. (I suspect the same thing would be true for those who are involved in Hapkido and not in TKD.) So the intensely sustaining level of interest is not always here on DD; but perhaps that's a good thing - -- life is better when it's in balance. What I'm trying to say is that I like DD and am happy to be on it. Keep on truckin', Ray! Sally Baughn cbaughn@aol.com ------------------------------ From: "Christopher Spiller" Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 20:28:55 GMT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Pandora's Box >At the the risk of opening another Pandora's box. When did learning, >teaching, or being involved with the martial arts become an extra >curricular activity, instead of a life long pursuit of knowledge? >Just a question, >Rich The change probably occured, at least to some extant, when the MA's were introduced to non-Oriental cultures. Sure, in the beginning when it was mostly military men who were learning them there would have been much less of a change but when they brought them back to the US, England, Germany, or where ever I imagine there had to be some change to make the MA's more appealing to the general public. A lot of people will say that this was necessary so the MA's could become more widespread and thus help more people. The only problem with this position is that it begs the question. If the instructor is no longer teaching Taekwon-Do or Hapkido or whatever as a martial art then HOW is the martial art helping the people who ARE involved? They can learn sportsmanship by taking little league or football. Isn't the MA's about something more than sportsmanship? I have been privileged enough to train with some REAL martial artists. I have also trained with people who take time off every year during softball season and bowling season. While I have nothing against these activities the mind set demonstrated is completely different. To them, Taekwon-Do was just another sport they did when their calendaer was free. Then again, when the people who view Taekwon-Do as something different than softball are out due to sickness, injury, job transfer, etc. and come back you KNOW they have been training, even if it was "just" mental. To them Taekwon-Do is bigger than they are. It's something they are a part of (and is a part of them) not just something they do. The real question isn't when the change occured, it's whether or not the change was good. (Open can of worms.) Please note I am not dismissing things like tournament competition, rank tests, etc. out of hand. I think those things can be good and contribute to one's MA learning (through perseverance, integrity, testing of techniques, etc.). But they shouldn't be an end in themselves and they shouldn't be the main focus of class. Taekwon, Chris "Every experience of beauty points to infinity." Hans Urs von Balthasar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "Christopher Spiller" Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 20:54:47 GMT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Turning the other cheek >From: Ken McDonough >Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 20:18:49 -0800 (PST) >Subject: the_dojang: Re: For Mr. Iris= Turn the other cheek >philosophy ? >Mr. Iris stated, in part: >>From: "Keith F. Iris, Jr. MSE, NCC" >>Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 21:44:53 -0600 >>Subject: the_dojang: Respect - a lesson learned >>It's interesting to see periodically, the postings slamming other >>listowners. One thing that I learned early on from my first teacher >>was >>respect. I may not approve of things other blackbelts do or >>say, but >>there is no need for me to get involved in gossip or >>slander. Here, here. Look, I have never had dealings with Glenn but I have heard a lot about him from list members. Do I think what he's doing is mature? No way. I'd demote him if he was a student of mine. (Ooh, so much for me ever posting on TKD-net. Don't worry, I don't even subscribe.) I also realize that there are a lot of hurt feelings over the way some of the DD members have been treated. Totally understandable. But is criticizing him to others helping? Maybe you feel better for a little while ("See, I knew it wasn't me!") but the time will come for people to let things go. >Response: Interesting thoughts. Sort of reminds me of growing up in >Ozone >Park, New York and attending St. Elizabeth's Catholic Church. >Yes, on >Sunday I would hear those type of thoughts. But, from Monday >through >Saturday-- I had to deal with the harsh realities of not >getting my rear >end kicked. Often, I wanted to join the monastery. I >wanted to walk that >line of being pure and serene. I wanted to reach >Nirvana and respect all >living creatures. >One day I woke up and garnered my own philosophy. For example, >sometimes >you have to fight fire with fire. Sometimes you have to >show force to >prevent force (evil) from taking over. Let's make a distinction here. It's totally justifiable to defend oneself or another person if they are in danger. It's a far different thing to attack another person when they aren't doing anything. Ever hear of the "Just War Theory"? Turning the cheek IS an objectivally higher thing to do (just ask the Buddhists ;) )but if you have to defend yourself from someone who is punching you you CANNOT take out a gun and shoot him! If you do then you have become the one engaging in the evil act. >Similarly, if you have the TKD list bashing the honorable Mr. Ray >Terry, >must we turn the other cheek and show respect ? Or should I or >other >readers point out that to earn respect you must treat others >with respect. You could turn the other cheek. Or you could just say "Yes, a lot of people who belong(ed) to both lists have gotten kicked off TKD-net for posting here. Glenn has problems with Ray even though Ray has apologized repeatedly for whatever it is Glenn imagined he did." The point is bad mouthing Glenn can undercut your standing in fornt of others. ("Oh, Glenn is the one with the problem but you're going to publically insult him?") I totally commend Ray for the way he has handled things. I have NEVER heard him be unkind towards Glenn. I HAVE heard him apologize for things he said to Glenn in PRIVATE e-mail, which no one on the DD would even know about. What else can he do? >Until other list "owners" treat Mr. Terry with respect I will >continue to >"slam" and jam. So tell me, what's the motivation you're giving the other list owners to be respectful? It's a never ending cycle apparently. I used to counsel kids in a residential treatment facility. They had the exact same attitude. "I'll respect them when they respect me." Unfortunately that will NEVER happen. Be the bigger man and respect those that do NOT respect you. Otherwise what have you learned? >Ken McD... Taekwon, Chris "Every experience of beauty points to infinity." Hans Urs von Balthasar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "Silke Schulz" Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 15:35:53 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Looking for Info on ACL injuries Well, it's probable that I tore my ACL last Friday night while sparring. While I have a pretty good idea what the injury is, I don't know much about whether or not it requires surgical repair, approximate recovery time, etc, and my curiosity between now and when I can get in to see an Orthopod requires some satisfaction. Does anyone out there have any more information? I'd appreciate hearing anything and everything. Thanks! Silke Schulz ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 16:06:26 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #217 > << > Nice gesture, but as many of us who've had run-in's with him know... once > you make his black list, you're on it forever - no matter how wrong he is. > His world is no fun for him otherwise. > > Hi Glenn. > >> > Who is this Glenn ? He was a subscriber to this list for about a year back in late '96 thru mid '97. In August 1997 he had to be removed from the list. He is one of about five or six that have had to be removed from the list over our 6 years of operation. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 15:52:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [none] ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #218 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.