From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #252 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Mon, 17 April 2000 Vol 07 : Num 252 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: Taijiquan question the_dojang: Concerned Mom the_dojang: re: Thoughts on Intimidation the_dojang: concerned mom the_dojang: King of World Martial Arts Tournament the_dojang: Intimidation is NOT the way the_dojang: Re: crushing kids the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #251 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #251 the_dojang: Re: Thoughts on Intimidation? the_dojang: TKD Times Article the_dojang: Re: Carrying Weapons the_dojang: Re: Thoughts on Intimidation? the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #251 the_dojang: RE: A Novice's Voice the_dojang: Re: Hindsight [none] ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 800 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pvallad1@tampabay.rr.com Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 00:02:47 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Taijiquan question >From: "kadin goldberg" >Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 16:47:19 MDT >Subject: the_dojang: Taijiquan > >Hi, I was just wondering about Taijiquan, could anyone tell me about it and >also... has anyone ever heard of Chen Qingzhou . > >thanks, >Kadin It is a martial art... or a form of exercise... depending on the teacher you find. Many people practice it for the latter reason and are perfectly happy with it that way - I respect that. Chen Qingzhou is one of the senior members of the Chen family of Chenjiagou in Henan Province, China. This family is the one widely credited with inventing the art and developing it. He is definitely worth seeing. I myself attended one of his seminars, even though I'm not a Taijiquan person, in hopes of experiencing this art as a martial art and was not disappointed. Try http://www.neijia.org for more info on Taijiquan. Well, I'm going back to lurking now. I'm mainly just hear to learn more about Hapkido and am a student of Mr. Nabors and Mr. Agosto. Paolo ------------------------------ From: "tink73" Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 00:12:11 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Concerned Mom Well Concerned Mom... First of all...what do you want for your daughter? Do you want her to become a tournament competitor with emphasis on fighting? Or do you want her to concentrate on the art form, the philosophy, and the self-improvement with tournaments as a sideline for the experience? If you want the prior, you certainly want the best instructor for her...but in my lowly humble opinion...her instructors methods of intimidation are out of line and I would be pulling my daughter from his influence and finding another instructor...I personally know of some class Instructors that produce champions without intimidation as it is unheard of and NOT something that is used to teach or train or motivate...intimidation is totally contrary to the entire concept and philosophy of the martial arts...also...those that teach by intimidation...produce students that live by intimidating others...they practice what they learn... She Is your daughter, mom....you decide what you want for her and what you feel is best for her...I have given you my opinion...take it for what it's worth... The One and Only... Tink ------------------------------ From: HwarangTSD@aol.com Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 02:09:39 EDT Subject: the_dojang: re: Thoughts on Intimidation Under no circumstances is it ever proper to intimidate anyone, especially a child. This type of training is mmind numbing and is thoroughly outdated. At the risk of offending other post members, I suggest to you that you remove your child from his class, before the child is injured mentally or physically. Sincerely, Master Frank Clay ------------------------------ From: Oregfightingarts@aol.com Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 02:01:34 EDT Subject: the_dojang: concerned mom There are certain times that an instructor must motivate a student or fighter using unconventional means. The usual encouragement/pep talks havnt worked...and you need to fire them up, you need to push some buttons. Now, I give young students lots and lots of encouragement, but sometimes that fails....I usually get a stern commanding type attitude when speaking to them, but never will I scream or yell at them or make them cry....that would show a lack of control on my part. Besides, competitions(for kids)are supposed to be fun learning experiences...if they are not, then whats the point? Sometimes its hard for parents who dont train (not sure if u do or not) I dont want to second guess the coach...he was there, I wasnt, and I dont know the whole story, but I have seen this type of behavior before. A win-win-win instructor/coach who has trained very good competitors may not have the ability any more to 'coach down' to the level needed for those who dont want an olympic team spot, and just want to have fun. The flip side is that the coach sees what an olympic class competitor is capable of, and sees the benefits of that type of drive and training and may only want the utmost success for a student...but it all depends on what the student wants....a coaches motivation can only take you so far, the student must make the rest of the effort, and if its not there, then the instr. may feel they have failed. I'm interested in hearing some of the more experienced instructors' comments. Mark Gajdostik ------------------------------ From: HwarangTSD@aol.com Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 02:13:48 EDT Subject: the_dojang: King of World Martial Arts Tournament A local Grandmaster here has claimed to have won the first King of World Championship Tournament which was supposedly held in Tae Gu Korea. I have been unable to locate any information on this tournament. Further some of the Masters and Grandmasters to whom I have spoken have actually laughed at me, for asking this question. Has anyone heard of this tournament? And if so can you provide information from a legitimate source? If not, any suggestions on finding out? Thanks, Frank Clay ------------------------------ From: Kim Jones Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 00:10:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Intimidation is NOT the way To the concerned mother-- As a "child" myself (still not out from under the wings of my parents YET), let me tell you that intimidation from ANYONE--be it parents, teachers, or martial arts instructors--is a rather insecure way to get across to people. If your daughter's coach disliked the amount of effort she put out, he should have approached her in a more calm manner and discussed it, not pushed her and screamed at her until she burst into tears. I can be a fussy child myself at times, and I do know that I'm not productive under threat or action of intimidation. If you say this guy can turn out great athletes, that's one thing, but he is not a good instructor or coach in my eyes because there are more avenues of expressing disapproval or encouraging someone to work beyond a particular limitation. Intimidation is not productive; that's just my $.02 worth. ===== ~~Kim Jones (*ladytimberland@yahoo.com*) http://kenochi_timberland.tripod.com/ ICQ: 52828008 AOL: Lady Timberland "The path of excess leads to the tower of wisdom." Enigma, "Gravity of Love" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 07:34:15 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: crushing kids In a message dated 4/16/00 9:04:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << He (Master Eui Lee from World Taekwondo Academy in Minnesota) told me he knows what works best and I have to trust him. >> bulls__t. emotional abuse is not appropriate...and that's what youve just described. he may be a wonderfully skilled martial artist. however, it's not ok to scare the crap out of, yell at, belittle, crush children....for ANY reason. melinda ChunjiDo -pe rsonal homepage http://hometown.aol.com/chunjido/homehtmlindex.html www.Chajonshim.com Martial Arts Supply now featuring a shopping cart for your convenience! :) Paidforsurf.com - - Main - get paid 75cents/hr to surf the net...i do! Looking for enlightenment is like looking for a flashlight, when all you need the flashlight for is to find the flashlight. ------------------------------ From: CKCtaekwon@cs.com Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 08:21:54 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #251 In a message dated 4/16/00 11:05:23 PM Central Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Oh and if anyone is planning on carrying a gun.....make sure you take class and have atleast 2 years of actual shooting experience. >> Why 2 years? Gary ------------------------------ From: CKCtaekwon@cs.com Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 08:28:43 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #251 In a message dated 4/16/00 11:05:23 PM Central Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << he pushed her from behind Isn't physical abuse illegal? Pushing or striking a child in this manner could wind him up in jail in Texas. and followed up by screaming at her until she was in tears.....her next fight was starting in 2 minutes (for the gold)....he left her there as I saw it, crushed and broken....she tried very hard her next fight but still lost... I imagine she may have lost because she could not concentrate on her match! Time to change schools.this really angered her coach and he wouldn't talk to her. >> Gary ------------------------------ From: jsegovia@mindspring.com Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 08:35:56 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Thoughts on Intimidation? > her instructor believes that > the way to improvement is through intimidation.....at her last > tournament he was angry at her for not > trying her hardest while sparring (she won the match) he pushed her from > behind and followed up by screaming at her until > she was in tears If this really happened as you described it, then I think you know what to do. Just because it's a Taekwondo instructor talking, does that make his behavior any more acceptable than if it were her school teacher or principal or piano teacher or friend's father playing touch football? I've heard lots of wonderful stories from parents who say how much better their kids do once they find the right instructor. I hope you'll be telling us one of those stories soon. Jesse ------------------------------ From: IMATC@aol.com Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 08:54:56 EDT Subject: the_dojang: TKD Times Article For those who read it, what do you think of the article in recent TKD Times about the decent of todays TKD practitioners. It states that most of the talented Masters are in the US yet a group of over 40 yr old veterans can wipe up the floor with current Black Belts. All in the name of $$$$. Sorry not more details but the issue is at home and I am at work right now. Do you believe we are on a downward slope? A. Ramirez ------------------------------ From: dbuehrer@denver.carl.org Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 07:41:54 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Carrying Weapons Ken McDonough wrote: > Several months ago a friend of mine was stopped for speeding. The officer > told my friend that his "club" aka "Trucker Tire Knocker" was an illegal > weapon. This club was brought in a Truck Stop and was a piece of wood > about 12 to 15 inches long. It sold as a Tire Knocker. The officer let the > guy go but told him to place the tire knocker in the truck. > > This leads to a question for you erudite martial artists out there. What > recommendations for possible self-defense weapons would you carry in your > car which are not under the ambit of illegal weapons, re: expandable > batons or clubs may be illegal. How about: > > 1. Long heavy duty flashlight. > 2. Long windshield ice scraper. > 3. Tire iron. > 4. No weapon. > > Suggestions please ? IMHO a weapon should be carried for one of the three following reasons: for sport (on your way to target practice, or hunting, etc), to deter attackers, to defend oneself, or to attack someone. I'll assume that everyone here is sane and clear headed and that no one wants to carry a weapon to attack someone :) A weapon for sport is defined by that sport. In the Hapkido class I attend, we learn to use and defend ourselves with sticks (similar to Escrima sticks, but a bit shorter), so two nights a week many of the classes students have reasons to carry "weapons". Weapons carried to deter attackers should be visible, yet not draw the attention of law enforcement. Big maglights work well, or a cane. Having a cell phone in your hand is another good deterrent. One of the best deterrents is a dog. BTW, they now make a cell phone in the USA that has one button, and one button only, that dials 911. The only cost is the price of the phone (no monthly payments). If you are going to carry a weapon for self defense you should carry a weapon that you know how to use. This is a weapon that may not necessarily have the goal of deterrence. You may choose to carry a concealed firearm (and I hope you do so legally :) But the point is, if you are attacked you should plan on using this weapon to defend your life with extreme prejudice. And remember, everyone is armed with a weapon of self defense at all times, their brain. Don't wait to use it when you find yourself in a sticky situation, try to use your head to keep from getting in a sticky situation in the first place :) And on the subject of weapons in cars, a car is a weapon. If an attacker is outside, and you're inside, you are in control of a mass of metal that weighs +1000 lbs, and can reach velocities of +60 mph. If the attacker is inside the vehicle, you are still in control of the biggest weapon. As an example, if on the off chance my brain took a vacation and I let a stranger into my car, who then pulled a weapon on me and I felt my life was in danger, I would immediately put the pedal to the metal, and give that person the option of jumping out of the car, or I would plow his side of the car into a bridge abutment, or roll the car, and take my chances, and if they decide to kill me they better be able to take control of a speeding car from a dead man. This is if and only if I feel like the person is going to kill me no matter what I do. If I felt that giving them the car and running would save my life, then I would do that. But my point is, that if you are in a car you are already heavily armed. To Life, - -David Buehrer 6th Gup, Hapkido http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3 - -- "Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday ... and all is well." ------------------------------ From: CBAUGHN@aol.com Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 09:50:39 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Thoughts on Intimidation? In a message dated 4/17/00 12:04:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: Alyssa Wood wrote: << My daughter has been in Taekwondo for 6 years now (she is almost 11 and one belt away from her junior black belt), her instructor believes that the way to improvement is through intimidation.....at her last tournament he was angry at her for not trying her hardest while sparring (she won the match) he pushed her from behind and followed up by screaming at her until she was in tears.....her next fight was starting in 2 minutes (for the gold)....he left her there as I saw it, crushed and broken....she tried very hard her next fight but still lost....this really angered her coach and he wouldn't talk to her. He (Master Eui Lee from World Taekwondo Academy in Minnesota) told me he knows what works best and I have to trust him. I was hoping to hear from other instructors to let me know if this is also their views or is it time to look around...I do have to add that she is on the Elite Team he has that travels with the older kids/adults and is expected to perform above the average...he does have one female student who is one step away from the last olympic spot so I know he does know how to produce excellent fighters. >> YOU and your daughter have to decide what YOU want from Taekwondo. After having done that, YOU have to determine whether her current instructor is the person YOU want to help you reach the goals you've set. If you decide her current instructor is the person you want, you should discuss the goals you wish to pursue, and give him input on what you may agree or disagree with in his methods. Hopefully, he will discuss openly with you and help you to understand what he is trying to do and how he hopes to do it. My personal belief is that a parent should be involved and consulted about an athlete's training and not just asked to bring money. If you decide the current instructor is not the person you want, leave. Find a new instructor/coach. Try several. Get recommendations. Don't be bullied. Remember that you are purchasing the services of an instructor, NOT binding yourself or your child into slavery. My son has been competing in TKD for three years, with his current coach for the last two years. We have become much like family, but (as with family) I would never accept advise that I felt was not in my son's best interests. We scrap sometimes. We discuss. Occasionally we argue (although not heatedly). When the dust settles, we are all committed to advancing my son's efforts -- which is what really counts. Hope this may be of some help. Feel free to write me if you have any questions. Sally Baughn cbaughn@aol.com ------------------------------ From: SunBiNim@aol.com Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 09:47:32 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #251 In a message dated 04/16/2000 11:05:17 PM Central Daylight Time, a "concerned Mom" writes: << he does have one female student who is one step away from the last olympic spot so I know he does know how to produce excellent fighters. >> If this is the goal you have for your 11 year old daughter, and that is the most important thing for you, and you think that it is that important to her, if you want her to understand that winning is the only thing, continue. We all make choices. ------------------------------ From: Robert Martin Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 07:54:10 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: A Novice's Voice Since no one else has jumped into this one yet, I guess I will. I'm very familiar with the ITF; not quite as good with the WTF. The major difference between the ITF and WTF (as I see it) is the the ITF has a common curcilum that is univeral. There is only one set of 24 forms/patterns. They are taught pretty much the same way all around the world. This also applies to fundamental excersises and basic techniques. The WTF is geared more toward the olympics and fighting with its "olympic style". As I understand it, that is the sole purpose of the WTF. Kukkiwon is the South Korean oganization responsible for issuing certificates, etc. The ITF does not teach weapons as part of its formal instruction. However, individaul instructors or groups will include weapons defense in class. I don't know about the WTF on this. "Is one harder then the other?" That is a tough question. This depends so much on the instructor. I've spent almost 15 years in the ITF and have a few WTF years before that. My ITF experience was much harder than my WTF experience (but my WTF instructor was an idiot -- thats why I left). "Is one preferable to the next?" For my money the ITF is preferable, but I'm biased! (Don't flame me you WTF folks - you would say the WTF is preferable!) The true questions are: what are you looking for? What's available in you area? Hopes this helps, Robert Martin an ITF nut From: "Noel Doney" Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:29:47 EST Subject: the_dojang: A Novice's Voice Hi People No doubt over the years you've answered this question or similar questions from novice practicioners, so I'll apologise for the naievity of the question in advance. What is the difference between WTF and ITF tae kwon do? Not the politics mind you. I've done the scour of the net and understand the politics (well that's not quite true, I don't understand the politics but then politics in general is alien to me) let's just say I understand the timeline history. In terms of forms and movements, is it vastly different? Is one preferable to the next? Is one harder than the other? Is one more heavily geared to weaponry or sparring than another? To who ever answers, thanks for indulging my query. Regards, Noel ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: dbuehrer@denver.carl.org Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 08:02:08 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Hindsight > ***I play in a band and yesterday we were taking our first set break. I > went to the pool room to shoot a quick game and a guy about 6'3, in his > 40's, very skinny, dirty, old glasses and dirty beard walked in > completely wasted. > So, he's leaning over to shoot and I say quietly to some kid '3 ball in > the second dot,' because the guy was missing the pockets by like a foot. > Not too polite, but I didn't insult the guy's family or anything. > I stepped to the other side of the table, he comes up to me about 1 foot > away, leans down (I'm 5'6)and says something like 'I heard you. You ___ > with me I'll rip your ___ throat out.' I smiled and said 'just a > friendly game of pool' as he walked away. > This is my question. He then started back toward me looking angry at what > I said and I hesitated. Afterwards I thought I should have been safe and > hit him in the throat lightly. He basically said the same thing, that he > was crazy and would 'mail my throat to my mother.' He wasn't totally in > my face, but was leaning in toward me with his hands at his sides. I > smiled, shook my head and my drummer and I walked out. My drummer didn't > see any of this. > What should I have done? I got nervous after not because I was scared but > out of anger for not taking him out when he approached me the second > time. Then I questioned what I should have done. I'll still pissed > thinking about this... IMHO this person did everything right when confronted by the other guy. He avoided a fight by apologizing, and by *not* fighting. He left as soon as he could. IMO the reason he gets pissed thinking about this is that in the back of his mind he is ashamed at himself for starting it by insulting the other guy. Instead of creating a problem where none exists (he came out of it without a scratch, the guy never attacked him, he never need to physically defend himself), he should take responsibility for creating the situation. The lesson to be learned is that treating anyone with disrespect can turn on you in a heart beat. What he should have done is treated the other guy with respect, and refrained from making the comment that he did. IMO what he should do now is own up to the mistake of not treating the other guy with respect, and apologizing to himself for making the mistake, and plan on treating others with more respect in the future. To whoever originally posted this, please feel free to copy my response to the original forum, or the originator of this topic. To Life, - -David Buehrer 6th Gup, Hapkido http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3 - -- "Warm nights, good food, kindred spirits....great life!" ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 07:18:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [none] ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #252 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.