From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #253 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Mon, 17 April 2000 Vol 07 : Num 253 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: King of World Martial Arts Tournament the_dojang: RE: King of World Martial Arts Tournament the_dojang: Old geezers the_dojang: RE: weapons the_dojang: Taekwon-Do Times cover article the_dojang: Re: Thoughts on intimidation the_dojang: Re: weapons, and Re lazines about training... the_dojang: Re: Thoughts on Intimidation? the_dojang: Re: concerned mom the_dojang: king of the world the_dojang: intimidation the_dojang: Re: Perhaps, Mr. Bueher Re: the_dojang: Thoughts on Intimidation? the_dojang: Re: For Silke=You call the Play ! the_dojang: Universal Tae Kwon Do Brotherhood the_dojang: Re:King of World Martial Arts Tournament the_dojang: Re: What would you do? Maybe this ? Routine 9 responses. the_dojang: Re: Seminars=an interesting experience [none] ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 800 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jsegovia@mindspring.com Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 10:43:12 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: King of World Martial Arts Tournament You know one man who has been in the tournament, and who actually won it. Why don't you ask the Grandmaster for information? Don't challenge him on it, but tell him you want to join yourself and to compete, or just go and watch. Is he going to defend his title? Perhaps you can't always, but I think for the most part you can tell if a person really is a world-class athlete, someone who could win a martial arts world championship. Does this Grandmaster seem that type of person to you? Perhaps he does not, which may be why you have questions about the event. Jesse > A local Grandmaster here has claimed to have won the first King of World > Championship Tournament which was supposedly held in Tae Gu Korea. I have > been unable to locate any information on this tournament. Further some of the > Masters and Grandmasters to whom I have spoken have actually laughed at me, > for asking this question. ------------------------------ From: "Stovall, David C." Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 10:47:02 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: RE: King of World Martial Arts Tournament I saw an advertisement in the back of a recent issue of TKD Times that showed pictures of the three "winners". Evidently, the tournament crowned a "speed champion", a "power champion", and a "sparring champion". To be honest, my B.S. alarm went off when I saw the thing. There may be someone on this list that has the real skinny as to what this "tournament" was all about, but the whole thing looked paper thin to me. Did anyone else who saw the ad get the same impression? ------------------------------ From: "Atchinson, Kerry M" Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 10:31:56 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Old geezers > From: David Weller > Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 11:49:19 -0500 > Subject: the_dojang: Elderly Geezer Training > > Being an over 40 "executive" myself, I guess my feelings are a tad hurt by > this statement.(He says, grabbing tie and muttering "don't get no > respect"). > > I will be certain to tell my 50 year old instructor tonite that we need a > longer warm up due to our advanced age, and obvious frailties. Almost > lunch > time, I better ring the nurse so I can get my mashed turnips and > applesauce > gummed down ... > > dave weller, elderly student WTF TKD > > "Practice a thousand hours and you learn self discipline. > Practice ten thousand hours and you learn about yourself." > Myamoto Musashi > > I'm with you Dave! Let's shake our canes at the whippersnappers! (hee hee) BTW, apologies for not being more congenial at the testing Saturday. I was a bit pre-occupied with my test, but it was good to see you. Hope everyone had a good day and a safe trip home. Kerry Atchinson WTF TKD ------------------------------ From: "StarrAvis" Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:37:58 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: RE: weapons I am certified in SC to carry a weapon (firearm). But, I would actually hate to have to use it. I have several advanced degrees in TKD and HKD, but if faced with a life and death situation on the street, I will pull and use my firearm, with intention of shooting to kill, not injure my opponent. If I let him live he will probably sue me for shooting him in the leg (arm, finger, etc.). My firearm instructor stated to shoot to kill, never aim for a lesser target. BTW, in SC, you are allowed to carry a fully loaded pistol in your glovebox or middle armrest unlocked, without a license. I really like Vermont's laws concerning concealed-unconcealed weapons. george george ------------------------------ From: Robert Martin Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 10:02:33 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Taekwon-Do Times cover article Anyone see the cover article on the new issue of Taekwon-Do Times? If you haven't seen it yet its about "Tiger" Kim's sons. What is ironic is that their school in Denver is being investiaged for abuse of students. The stroy from the Denver Post is pasted below: Regards Robert Martin Martial-arts school hurt kids, pupils By Sean Kelly Denver Post Staff Writer Feb. 29 - In a promotional brochure, Tiger Kim's Academy promises to build self-confidence and respect. Former students say they instead learned fear and humiliation, suffered physical and sexual abuse and watched helplessly as children were physically punished. One of the largest martial arts studios in Denver, Tiger Kim's Academy is more of a cult than a school, former students said, claiming they were forced to fall to their knees and call the owner "Hananim," Korean for God. "I am so tired of watching kids cry, looking at that fear in their eyes," said former employee and student Janet Roach, her voice choked by sobs. "It's pretty pathetic that they have to run a school based on intimidation and abuse." The owners of Tiger Kim's Academy have not commented on the allegations, instead referring all questions to current student Mark Sutherland. He said the accusations are all false. "Nothing like that has ever gone on to my knowledge, and I've been a student for 20 years," Sutherland said. "I wouldn't let my children go to school here if I had seen anything like that." Since Roach, a former secretary and student, and a few other former students came forward last week with allegations of physical abuse and sexual harassment, several more have come forward with similar stories. Now totaling more than 10 former students, they allege they were abused by Jung Kil "Tiger" Kim and his son, Sung Kim. They also level a litany of other charges against the school, including racism and financial impropriety, and say Tiger Kim misrepresented his credentials and made outlandish promises. "They scare the hell out of kids. They pee their pants because they're afraid to ask if they can go the bathroom," said Teresa Hamilton, who attended the school with her son over four months in 1998. "I don't like to hear my child scream." Roach and Hamilton said they now live in fear and have been harassed by the Kims since going public with their charges. They said they've been followed and someone broke into their house last week. Several other students did not want their names used for fear of retaliation. The students joined Tiger Kim's for a number of reasons: self-defense, exercise and to build self-esteem. The Kims, they said, told students the academy was "one big happy family" and demanded absolute loyalty. "It was a system of manipulation and worship. I would call it a cult," said one former student. Denver police say they are investigating the matter, particularly allegations by the mother of a 5year-old boy. She told police the boy was physically abused and was forced to hold a concrete block over his head as punishment. The Kims, through Sutherland, said the charges were made up. "They're ridiculous. They're being made by a disgruntled former employee looking to get back at them," Sutherland said of Roach. "And the people supporting her are her friends." Roach says she quit working at Tiger Kim's on Feb. 15. More than a week later, she received a letter from the academy telling her that her services were no longer needed. She says the letter, postmarked Feb. 22, is a late attempt by the Kims to discredit her story. "They really don't want me to talk," Roach said. "But I feel I have to for the kids that are still there." Located at 3200 E. Colfax Ave., Tiger Kim's has specialized in the Korean martial arts tae kwon do and tang soo do for more than 20 years. But despite the defensive nature of the arts, Tiger Kim, 62, would often hit students as punishment, Roach and the others said. He would use an oak "bo," or stick designed for fighting, on the backs of students' legs, they said. Roach said she was abused by Sung Kim. The 24-year-old instructor would choke her, hit her, stab her with darts and systematically use pressure points to intimidate her. One time Roach tried to kick back, she said. Sung Kim "absorbed the blow and bloodied my nose," she said. She is still paying bills from a knee injury she said was caused by Sung Kim. "All this didn't happen in class. They thought beating up on me made them look good," she said. "Like father, like son." Young students also were forced to curl their toes under the balls of their feet and stand like ballerinas, said Douglas Anderson, who earned his black belt at the school. "I love this sport. I love the martial arts. But I saw things I shouldn't have," Anderson said. "I'm sorry I ever took my kids there." Children were often taken into a back room, Roach said. When they came out, "they were shaking like a leaf," she said. Several students said they feel the Kims misrepresented themselves. Their promotional brochure shows photos of Tiger Kim with actor Chuck Norris and Denver Broncos head coach Mike Shanahan. A spokesman for Shanahan said the coach does not know Tiger Kim and the picture was used without his knowledge or approval. The brochure also claims that Tiger Kim once taught martial-arts legend Bruce Lee, a dubious claim since Lee practiced kung fu rather than tae kwon do, said local fifthdegree black belt Ghassan Timani. As secretary general of the Colorado State Taekwondo Association, Timani said he has heard stories about certain studios, including Tiger Kim's, using such physical punishments in violation of widely accepted standards. "People need to know that Tiger Kim's is the exception and not the rule," said Timani, the instructor at Korean Academy in Aurora. "This one example is giving a black eye to everybody in the martial arts, and that's not right." Timani also said Tiger Kim's pulled out of the Colorado State Taekwondo Association more than six years ago. In the promotional brochure, Tiger Kim's claims to be the Kukkiwon Taekwondo headquarters, even though the Kukkiwon - the sport's governing body - recognizes only the state association through the United States Taekwondo Union. A number of former students also accuse the Kims of racism. They claim the Kims often charge different monthly rates based on race and appearance - with non-Korean Asians, blacks and whites paying the most. Hispanic women and Koreans paid the least. The Rev. Eric Pearman, a black belt whose daughter was enrolled at the school, claims the academy also hid testing fees from new students. These fees, which reach $1,000 for a black belt, are mandatory and were not disclosed until students had signed long-term contracts. Several students said they were failed on tests for higher belts or had their belts stripped so they would have to re-test and pay the fees again. SELECTING A SCHOOL Tips on choosing the right martial arts school: - Watch a class. Instructors should allow parents and prospective students to sit in on a class. - Talk with other parents. Are other parents pleased with the atmosphere and their child's development? - Ask to see the qualifications of the instructor. A martial arts teacher should be well-trained, at least a fourth or fifth-degree black belt for tae kwon do classes. - Check the contract closely. Review all testing fees and ask for a short trial period before signing any long-term contracts. - Make sure the school has a quality facility. The floor should be padded, and the school should have adequate safety equipment. Source: Ghassan Timani, Colorado State Taekwondo Association Copyright 2000 The Denver Post. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed. Return to top ------------------------------ From: Cookson Family Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 12:28:59 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Thoughts on intimidation Alyssa: I think your answer lies in what type of life you want for your daughter. I speak as a mom, a student and a dojang owner when I say I personally believe that competition should be about personal heroics, not browbeating - I admire Olympic-calibur athletes but not every athlete acheives their place using training tactics I agree with. It's about quality of life and enjoying what you do as you do your best, not focusing on what others expect. I personally agree with the mother of an Indiana basketball recruit who told Bobby Knight that if she ever saw him grab or assault her son, she'd be coming out of the stands after him. You do what you have to, but I think if parents disagree with training tactics and don't speak up, it further feeds the egos of controlling/intimidating instructors. You can set expectations and be firm without using guerrilla psychology on kids under 18. Best of Luck to your daughter in the future! Melody Cookson Director, East Coast TKD, Atlanta ------------------------------ From: Donnla Nic Gearailt Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 16:58:12 +0100 Subject: the_dojang: Re: weapons, and Re lazines about training... The law in the UK and Ireland is much more stringent than in Ireland. An off-duty policewoman told me that _anything_ which is being carried as a weapon is illegal. For example, if you use a hairbrush to strike an assailant, you will have to prove you actually carried it to brush your hair (so if you're bald, you're in trouble here). Some items, like knives etc carry a heavier penalty if you are found carrying them but for things like baseball bats the onus is on you to prove that you were carrying them for an innocuous reason like going to play baseball... Even a swiss army knife or a screwdriver can get you into big trouble in the wrong situation - imagine you bring the screwdriver with you to a bar, the obvious question is, why did you need it in the bar, so unless you work in construction or whatever you can be in big trouble. Women's magazines and the like recommend holding your car keys in your dominant hand when walking around in the street (or your house keys). Big jewelery on this hand when you go out at night can also help. Re the thread on not wanting to go to training, I find that before the warmup, usually my muscles are stiff from spending the day in front of my monitor and my blood sugar and energy are low from not having had a meal since lunch time. Result - I feel like wimping out and not going. But once I've done the warmup in class all that reluctance is gone. Like Kim I use music like the Prodigy and Rage Against the Machine (or any other heavy rock outfit) - I play it on my stereo for 10 mintues and bop around the place before going to training. This usually gets me ready to go and loosens up those whinging muscles a bit. Also some simple yoga positions can help to loosen them up too. I find that once the muscles have gotten moving a bit that little devil in my mind telling me to put my feet up and watch TV instead is considerably less insistent :-). Finally, I find having something to eat a few hours beforehand, rather than not eating anything since lunchtime, also improves my enthusiasm come the evening. That or a glass of dilute orange sweet drink (Robinson's Squash here in the UK, dunno what the US brands are). Donnla. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Donnla Nic Gearailt Computer Laboratory, New Museums Site, Graduate Student Pembroke St., Cambridge CB2 3QG, U.K. tel: +44-1223-334619 http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~dbn20/ "An eyelash! How could you be so careless!" - Jude Law, Gattaca ------------------------------ From: Scott Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 14:14:09 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Thoughts on Intimidation? > From: Alyssa Wood > Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 20:45:18 -0500 > Subject: the_dojang: Thoughts on Intimidation? > > My daughter has been in Taekwondo for 6 years now (she is almost 11 and > one belt away from her junior black belt), her instructor believes that > the way to improvement is through intimidation.....at her last > tournament he was angry at her for not > trying her hardest while sparring (she won the match) he pushed her from > behind and followed up by screaming at her until > she was in tears.....her next fight was starting in 2 minutes (for the > gold)....he left her there as I saw it, crushed and broken....she tried > very hard her next fight but still lost....this really angered her coach > and he wouldn't talk to her. This type of action is inexcuseable. It doesn't matter what he thinks the is trying to teach, that is the wrong way to do it. Win or lose your daugther is human being. And should never be abused like this. The purpose of tournments is to learn more about yourself and your skills. Win lose or draw you daugther should be congratulated for doing her best. If you have tips that will help her in her next fight then explain them to her. You never yell at a student like you discribe. This Instructor is trying to improve his reputation at the expense of your child. He obvoiusly dosen't care about your child he wants, a brutal competetor that will take medals and trophies. This is will make him look better. As you said he must know what he's doing because he has elite students that are in line for olympic spots. That's the reason that you beleaved him when he said he knows what he's doing. Otherwise would you allow someone to talk to you child in such away in the same situation. I doubt it. What do you want for your child. To be an excelent fighter or a skilled martial artist that has compassion for others. It doesn't sound like she will learn to be the second from this person. Just my $.00 cents worth. (I paid alot in taxes yesterday) Scott > > He (Master Eui Lee from World Taekwondo Academy in Minnesota) told me he > knows what works best and I have to trust him. I was hoping to hear > from other instructors to let me know if this is also their views or is > it time to look around...I do have to add that she is on the Elite Team > he has that travels with the older kids/adults and is expected to > perform above the average...he does have one female student who is one > step away from the last olympic spot so I know he does know how to > produce excellent fighters. > > Concerned MOM ------------------------------ From: jdudley@inna.net Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 13:22 +0100 Subject: the_dojang: Re: concerned mom Well, Mom, Flash forward 15 years: your daughter is married to a great guy, you think, until you see him berating her in public until she cries. You think his behaviour is appalling. You say to her, "Honey, why do you let him treat you like that?" She hangs her head. "I don't know, Mom. He says he knows best, and he is my husband." To quote my grand master, who is a gentleman as well as a super TKD person: "This is NOT self-defense!!!" Please think about moving to a different TKD school, if not before, then very soon after your daughter gets her black belt. My $0.02. Jane jdudley@inna.net ------------------------------ From: BTBEACH@aol.com Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 14:24:08 EDT Subject: the_dojang: king of the world Check out the May issue of TaeKwonDo Times p. 16. It has a picture and a short article of the tourney. Top winners were from USA. For Power - C.T. Goh (Phil,PA, Sparring - H.Y. Kwon(Centerville,VA), Speed - S.G. Dong(Richmond,VA). ------------------------------ From: "Atchinson, Kerry M" Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 13:21:05 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: intimidation > ------------------------------ > > From: Alyssa Wood > Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 20:45:18 -0500 > Subject: the_dojang: Thoughts on Intimidation? > > My daughter has been in Taekwondo for 6 years now (she is almost 11 and > one belt away from her junior black belt), her instructor believes that > the way to improvement is through intimidation.....at her last > tournament he was angry at her for not > trying her hardest while sparring (she won the match) he pushed her from > behind and followed up by screaming at her until > she was in tears.....her next fight was starting in 2 minutes (for the > gold)....he left her there as I saw it, crushed and broken....she tried > very hard her next fight but still lost....this really angered her coach > and he wouldn't talk to her. > > He (Master Eui Lee from World Taekwondo Academy in Minnesota) told me he > knows what works best and I have to trust him. I was hoping to hear > from other instructors to let me know if this is also their views or is > it time to look around...I do have to add that she is on the Elite Team > he has that travels with the older kids/adults and is expected to > perform above the average...he does have one female student who is one > step away from the last olympic spot so I know he does know how to > produce excellent fighters. > > Concerned MOM > > > Gut reaction: Oh boy oh boy oh boy... get away from that school, anybody's kids deserve better. After a little thought: Oh boy oh boy oh boy... get away from that school, anybody's kids deserve better. After a little more thought: I was a shy little kid, so withdrawn in fact that my grade-school teachers told my parents they were concerned I might not make it to adulthood. ( Seriously. ) I'm long since over that, but I guess I'm a little sensitive to kids being forced, coerced, or bullied by adults into anything. They should be led & nurtured, IMHO. It seems that you definitely want the best for your daughter, and TKD has a great deal to offer. I can't help but think that any benefit from TKD is going to be offset by the effects of this bullying. Yes, Olympic aspirations and rewards are wonderful, and the demands on an Olympic hopeful are tremendous, but it's worth it only if your daughter and you ( and the rest of your family) want to make the sacrifices. Its not worth it, again IMHO, to satisfy the ego of an instructor who wants to manufacture champions. This is worth repeating from your post: > her next fight was starting in 2 minutes (for the > gold)....he left her there as I saw it, crushed and broken....she tried > very hard her next fight but still lost....this really angered her coach > and he wouldn't talk to her. > I think that says it all. Who really failed here? The coach, not your daughter. This is a terrible lesson for life, in my book. I'm catching up on my e-mail, so I'm sure you've gotten much better responses already, I'll probably read them in the next few minutes. Thanks for letting me rant a little. This is by no means meant as an indictment of those who wish to attain Olympic-quality skills and participation, just those who think that nothing less is worthwhile and inflict their attitudes on others. Kerry WTF TKD ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 12:52:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Perhaps, Mr. Bueher Mr. Bueher stated, in part: Response: First, I respect your opinion and I am not here to act disingenuous toward your ideas. However, people react differently under stress. Moreover, many incidents occur when your at a stop and some individual is in your face while you are at the wheel. Now what if Grandma Jones is in front of you and your sandwiched ? The perp usually has these things figured out ? There may not be complete solutions,,,just possible alternatives. Also, I am not certain that I would want to damage my 1978 CJ-7 Jeep I spent 7 years restoring. Who knows ? Thanks, Ken McD... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: Daniel Monjar Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:55:16 -0400 Subject: Re: the_dojang: Thoughts on Intimidation? On 04/16 21:21 -0700, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com wrote: > From: Alyssa Wood > Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 20:45:18 -0500 > Subject: the_dojang: Thoughts on Intimidation? > > My daughter has been in Taekwondo for 6 years now (she is almost 11 and > one belt away from her junior black belt), her instructor believes that > the way to improvement is through intimidation.....at her last > tournament he was angry at her for not > trying her hardest while sparring (she won the match) he pushed her from > behind and followed up by screaming at her until > she was in tears.....her next fight was starting in 2 minutes (for the > gold)....he left her there as I saw it, crushed and broken....she tried > very hard her next fight but still lost....this really angered her coach > and he wouldn't talk to her. > > He (Master Eui Lee from World Taekwondo Academy in Minnesota) told me he > knows what works best and I have to trust him. I was hoping to hear > from other instructors to let me know if this is also their views or is > it time to look around...I do have to add that she is on the Elite Team > he has that travels with the older kids/adults and is expected to > perform above the average...he does have one female student who is one > step away from the last olympic spot so I know he does know how to > produce excellent fighters. > > Concerned MOM > > No one, regardless of rank, pushes and shouts at my children because of a sport (or much of anything else for that matter). She's 11 years old, it is supposed to be fun. My son is 6. Our instructor came to me privately before a recent test. She told me "He has the technique but he goofs around a little too much in class. He needs to be serious when the situation calls for it." I explained it to him and during the final practice before test day our other instructor (husband and wife team) came to me and asked if I had been working with him. I just explained what I had told my son, if he wanted to test he needed to be a bit more serious. He tested and passed. They are martial artists but first and foremost they are kids. I'd look elsewhere. - -- Daniel Monjar / Organon Teknika, Durham, NC US From Dept. of State Consular information sheet on El Salvador: "Many Salvadorans are armed and shootouts are not uncommon." ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 13:20:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: For Silke=You call the Play ! Silke stated: Response: Nice hypothetical. So, I will now use the Socratic Method. Life is often not as simplistic as the above scenario (which is not to infer that the writer does not have a legitimate point. Scenario. I am driving down the highway on a nice Sacramento day. The Ford pickup with the gun rack in the back wants on to the highway. I can't let him in since he is parallel to me. So, he gets on the highway and fingers me. I ignore him. He pursues me. I get off my exit. He follows me. I am now stuck at a light. Grandma Jones is in front of me. John Q. Public is on my respective sides. I am sandwiched. Nutcase in Ford pickup is now getting of his car and approaching my vehicle ? Gee, I can't go anywhere. By the time I use my cellular he has me by the short hairs, so what do I do ? Now, I am thinking "Gosh, I should have had a V-8 today or I should have carried my flashlight or cane...." Panic and stress is setting in. You call the Play !(P.S. Please dont tell me to drive away or the above does not occur). Ken McD.... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: Dave Steffen Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 14:25:35 -0600 (MDT) Subject: the_dojang: Universal Tae Kwon Do Brotherhood As a veteran of the Organization wars ;-) I'll jump in on this one, and see if I can't stir things up a little! Warning: controversy ahead. ;-) ;-) > From: assyahu@webtv.net (assya humesky) > "Once I had a dream...a vision..." > > The idea of the Universal Tae Kwon Do Brotherhood within its > present scope was conceived by Master E. Humesky as far back as the > beginning of the 70's. The growth and pressing need for an > organization which would encompass or be a kind of symbiosis of all > the Tae Kwon Do styles in the territory of the U.S.A. was > apparent. The organization had to be objective, unbiased, and > apolitical. I claim that the above is impossible. (I expect this claim to lead to some debate ;-) See below. > Embittered by continuous bickering and political intrigues within > the Martial Arts circles, and appalled by frequent lack of > adherence to the basic ethical tenets of Tae Kwon Do by the Martial ... as are we all... > Arts media. master E. Humesky felt compelled to search for a > solution. He saw it in the revival of all the common basic tenets > of ethics which were practiced throughout the ages among all true > martial artists. [snip] > The basic idea behind this organization is the idea of unity within > diversity. Just like this great country with its many > nationalities, races and creeds unites all by mutual respect and > enables them to co-exist and to develop, so should there be one > united--UNIVERSAL--Tae Kwon Do uniting all styles and schools. A) "Unity within diversity" is (almost) an oxymoron. While we all agree on the concept, in practice this is an extremely difficult thing to do - look around the U.S. or Canada (and probably other nations) for examples of how difficult this is. Some cultures think it's OK for men to beat their wives. If a family from such a culture moves to the U.S., do we have the right to tell them otherwise? Do we accept this as a form of diversity? Why or why not? B) I claim (fuel to the fire - Ray, you _do_ want some more conversation around here, right? ;-) that an organization that admits _everyone_ has no value. It can take no action, nor facilitate any outcome, that wouldn't have happened anyway. Such an organization would be irrelevent and meaningless. Any attempt to make it otherwise violates the basic idea of a "universal" organization. 1st proof 1) The organization is supposed to unite "all styles and schools" (quoted from the original) 2) The organization is supposed to be a group of schools "united all be mutual respect" (quoted from the original with one minor grammar/typo change ;-) 3) School A is a member of the organization. School B wants to join. The instructors of school A and B had a big falling out years ago - instructor A thinks instructor B is a commerical sell-out, instructor B thinks instructor A is so hung up on tradition and patterns that none of his students know how to fight. Paradox: If school B is admitted, not all the schools in the organization are united by mutual respect. If school B is not admitted, the organization cannot claim to unite all styles and schools of Tae Kwon Do. What will you do? (Sounds like a Zen Koan, doesn't it? Actually, it is, more or less! ;-) 2nd proof: 1) Suppose the following initial condition: the organization consists of some schools, all of which are run by high-quality, honest, skilled instructors, who all turn out students with excellent technique, and black belts that sweep the local tournaments. (Good situation!) Call this group of schools set {S}, with instructors set {I}. 2) The "McDojang" down the street, school M with instructor T, applies for membership. It is generally agreed by the instructors in {I} that instructor T is an unethical fraud, cheats & abuses students (see recent events in Dever relating to Tiger Kim), and that the students of school M can't kick their way out of a wet safeway bag. Suppose further that instructor T claims that school M teaches a previously unknown style of martial arts called "Fraud Do Kwan" ;-) which none of the other instructors are qualified to judge, as they didn't study under the founder. 3) Suppose _another_ school on the other side of town, school Q with instructor S, claims to be a Korean Buddhist Monastery teaching some ancient form of martial art that, again, none of the instructors I have ever heard of. Instructor S wants to join, but also claims that none of the instructors I are qualified to judge the quality of school Q's students, because none of them have ever studied the system. Further suppose that instructor S is telling the absolute truth, and is in fact turning out great students, but they either loose in the local tournaments or don't compete at all becase 1) their best techniques are illegal in sparring and 2) none of the judges understand what the patterns are supposed to look like. Paradox: A) if instructors I refuse entry to Fraud-Kwan-Do instructor T, they are not open to "all styles and schools" - see first proof. B) if instructors I let school Q join - and remember, school Q really is a good one - on the basis that they're open to "all schools, regardless of whether we understand what they're doing or not", they cannot consistently deny membership to school M, which can make the same argument. C) if instructors I - the good guys - choose to avoid paradoxes A and B by allowing school M ("Tiger Ki^H^H^H^H^H Instructor T's McDojang - would you like fries with that black belt? Child abuse is free today") to join the organization, they not only violate the "basic tenets of the "Universal Tae Kwon Do Brotherhood" (supposedly designed to encourage the "revival of all the common basic tenets of ethics which were practiced throughout the ages among all true martial artist" (quoted from original)), they implicitly condone instructor T's poor behavior. Presuming instructors I are really "the good guys", this is presicely the kind of thing they're trying to teach their students _not_ to do. Observation (or, just making the above point again): Some big guy comes in off the street, claiming to be a 25th degree black belt in a system he just founded. He has only one student - his brother who is only at 17 1/2 degree. Gonna let him in to the organization? If so, what is the purpose of the organization (this guy is clearly not a martial artist in any sense of the word). If not, again, you're in violation of the organization's stated intent. Third Proof: A) Given: There are a lot of different martial arts out there. Not just the myriad variations on TKD; put in the Japanese, Chinese, and everything else, and you've got a _lot_ of very different martial arts. Given that you like what you're doing, are they wrong to do it differently? No - they've just got a different philosophy, which leads them to solve different problems - or, more accurately, optimize their solutions differently. There's nothing wrong with this - it's _supposed_ to be that way. Similarly, there are a zillion organizations out there - each with a different purpose, or solving a different problem. Which is fine - it's _supposed_ to be this way. You join the organizations that help you solve your particular problems, you ignore the rest. B) A "Universal" organization therefore attempts to solve everyone's problems (otherwise why would everyone join?) C) Anything that claims to solve everyone's problems is doomed to failure. Since everyone doesn't have the same problems, and people who do have the same problems frequently prefer mutually exclusive solutions, I claim that it isn't possible to solve everyone's problems simultaneously. Alternately, I'll simply state that anything that claims to solve all problems solves exactly none of them. Topic for further philosophical wrangling. ;-) D) Conclusion: There are good reasons for many the different styles and organizations. Not to say that _all_ groups that split off from some other group have _good_ reasons for doing so (IMHO most reasons are actually bad), but there are good reasons for at least _some_ styles/organizations to be separate. > The word "universal" expresses the idea of a "united area of > influence and incorporation including and covering the whole either > collectively or distributively." The word "Tae Kwon Do" is known to > almost everyone today, and the word "brotherhood" implies a very > close, intimate, sincere relationship. This kind of relationship > should and does exist among members of the U.T.B. This is the > Universal Tae Kwon Do Brotherhood, Inc. Right. Which means, in one way or another, you're "screening out" people whom you don't want to associate with. Question: what does it mean to be a part of an organization? Answer: depends on the organization. The WTF, for example, is very open; you don't necessarily have to have a certain curriculum, or do a certain set of patterns. All the WTF says is that tournament competition happens in a certain way; if you want to play this way, come on in. This is entirely appropriate given what the WTF is after. But it doesn't say much about whether or not two WTF schools in the same city do the same patterns or have the same curriculum. (WTF'ers may wish to disagree with this; but it's certainly my experience with the WTF.) On the other hand, the ITF is a very tight organization. Everyone in the ITF follows roughly the same curricum (actually _exactly_ the same, when it comes to patterns), does patterns the same way, uses the same uniforms, etc. We're not intentionally exclusive - if you want to join, we'd be happy to have you - but you're going to have to accept and adapt to the way we do things. If you don't want to do the sine wave (for example), you probably don't really want to be ITF. Now, we can (and do) disagree on which one is better; my point is that an organization must state _something_ about what the members have in common. An organization that's totally open to everything can't do that, by definition; therefore it's either useless or a pipe dream. Question for further discussion: what is the purpose of (any) martial art organization. What does it mean to be the member of one? Final point: (and you were wondering when I'd get here ;-) quoting from the original post: > master E. Humesky felt compelled to search for a solution. He saw > it in the revival of all the common basic tenets of ethics which > were practiced throughout the ages among all true martial artists. I know what _I_ think "true" martial artists are; so does everyone else here. On this forum, we tend to agree on that (up to a certain point); that's why we get along reasonably well (and why it's a good forum). But, everyone's got their own definition of "true" martial arts. The number of different schools/styles/organizations out there is proof in-and-of-itself that not everyone agrees with me. "True" is one of those words that should ring an alarm bell amongst careful readers. Any time anyone tells me they know the "one true" anything, I take a fighting stance; we'll never count the wars that have started this way. I'm not trying to rag on the original poster; I'm playing Devil's Advocate here. But, we've tried the same thing more than once; after a certain amount of (bitter) experience, I can tell you that it just don't work that way. ;-) OK, I'm done now. Let the flames begin! ;-) ;-) - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Steffen Wave after wave will flow with the tide Dept. of Physics And bury the world as it does Colorado State University Tide after tide will flow and recede steffend@lamar.colostate.edu Leaving life to go on as it was... - Peart / RUSH "The reason that our people suffer in this way.... is that our ancestors failed to rule wisely". -General Choi, Hong Hi ------------------------------ From: IMATC@aol.com Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 16:39:30 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re:King of World Martial Arts Tournament In a message dated 04/17/00 10:23:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: > A local Grandmaster here has claimed to have won the first King of World Championship Tournament which was supposedly held in Tae Gu Korea. I have been unable to locate any information on this tournament. Further some of the Masters and Grandmasters to whom I have spoken have actually laughed at me, for asking this question. Has anyone heard of this tournament? And if so can you provide information from a legitimate source? If not, any suggestions on finding out? King of World Martial Arts Tournament > In the May Issue of TKD Times in Martial Arts News there is an article on 3 American Grandmasters winning that Tournament. ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 13:54:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: What would you do? Maybe this ? Routine 9 responses. MissIllona writes: Response. Several options= 1. "Hi, would you like to play on a team I am forming ?" 2. "Hi fella, is that a baseball bat or are you glad to see me ?" 3. "Wow, that is a big tool you got there fella !" 4. "Please dont hurt me I just got out of the hospital...I am positive with the Plague..." 5. "Can we talk ?" 6. "Please don't hurt me...I just got out of Bellevue Hospital and they say I am Schizo." 7. "Would you like to trade for my axe ?" 8. "Bats don't hit back?" 9. "You play for the ____=pick your team." 10. Jump out on the opposite side of the car with the weapon you remembered to bring. Simultaneously dial 911 and while drooling on the phone tell the operator, "Hi, I am calling you and as I am calling some nutcase is approaching me with a bat...I may have an illegal weapon on me but since he has a bat and is going to crush my head...I thought I would forget about the legal implications...please send some....sorry, I dropped the phone, he just took a swing at me...as I was saying he is now chasing me...that is a 10-4." Perhaps you will hear the 911 operator say, "Sir or Maam, please stay on the line even if he is near u." Ken McD... P.S. A little subtle humor, no doubt ? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 14:12:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Seminars=an interesting experience Mr. Terry asked: Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 8:38:23 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: DoJu JI's Seminar > Do any of you have plans to attend DoJu JI's HKD seminar starting on > June 25? > > Ray> > > Response: I would be interested to know what the seminar contents will > be, levels of training participants are at, and other salient facts. HiHi... Ken, have you ever been to a seminar? :) In a multi-day seminar the contents will vary based on those there and the levels of the participants will probably be from color belt to mid/high level Dan rank. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com> Response: Ray, when studying Kuk Sool Won in California. I attended a Kuk Sool Seminar in Northern California. It was by the GM himself. About 50 bucks if I recall. Topics were how Korean names are spelled out, and pressure points on arm. Wow ! (note: as Ken states this his hand is simulataneously twirling around in an upward arc). Seminars are great if the presenter is out to provide knowledge in a logical, concise manner. Always good to know who the target audience will be. I mean 50 bucks is 50 bucks, right ? Ken McD... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 14:22:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [none] ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #253 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. 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