From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #259 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Tues, 18 April 2000 Vol 07 : Num 259 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: abusive instructor the_dojang: Re: queen of the world the_dojang: Morgan's school the_dojang: Re: abusive instructor the_dojang: Martial Spirit Vs. Money the_dojang: Re: abusive instr the_dojang: Spirit vs. the Almighty $ the_dojang: Question about summer camps [none] ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 800 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 20:22:24 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: abusive instructor In a message dated 4/18/00 12:28:38 PM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << I agree with you too Melinda. I know even if my child wanted to stay I would take over with a mom knows best attitude. There is no way I would allow him to do this to my child. There are other instructors out there who can produce winners w/o this attitude. He failed in my opinion. She lost because of his behavior. Her mind was not focused on the match. If he had left her alone she probally could have won. Donna - -- Me and my shadow >> ditto. ChunjiDo -pe rsonal homepage http://hometown.aol.com/chunjido/homehtmlindex.html www.Chajonshim.com Martial Arts Supply now featuring a shopping cart for your convenience! :) Paidforsurf.com - - Main - get paid 75cents/hr to surf the net...i do! Looking for enlightenment is like looking for a flashlight, when all you need the flashlight for is to find the flashlight. ------------------------------ From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 20:20:45 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: queen of the world In a message dated 4/18/00 12:28:38 PM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << ust curious -- where's the Queen of the World competition held? >> lol....good question! :)....i got a big back yard...anyone want to come over and play queen of the world? ;) melinda ChunjiDo -pe rsonal homepage http://hometown.aol.com/chunjido/homehtmlindex.html www.Chajonshim.com Martial Arts Supply now featuring a shopping cart for your convenience! :) Paidforsurf.com - - Main - get paid 75cents/hr to surf the net...i do! Looking for enlightenment is like looking for a flashlight, when all you need the flashlight for is to find the flashlight. ------------------------------ From: "J. R. West" Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 19:31:31 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Morgan's school Morgan, you have a great future in front of you as far as your outlook on martial arts training is concerned, however, as W.C. Fields would say, "sometimes you have to grab the bull by the tail and face the situation". When you open your doors to the public, you will find, as most of us have, that any nutball that doesn't come into your school is either dead or in jail. That being said, the ONLY person in your building that will not have a life outside of martial arts is YOU! The sooner that you accept this, the happier you will be. Not everyone follows the way of the warrior, some just want to lose weight, some want to be fit, some want to be the "first on their block to be the last on their block", some have just "always wanted to do it", and some even want to follow the warrior spirit. The problem is, you must pay bills in order to keep the doors open and offer your program to those special few, and in order to pay bills, you must bite the bullet on a few things. The main one is having to teach people s that have no basic interest in learning, working hard, being good, or improving themselves past the point that they are. Don't get me wrong, some of the kids I have run across are absolutely incredible from the time they walk in the door, and some become that way because of your input, but most are just spending time, theirs, their parents and yours. You will train black belts that will just not come back to class and never take the time to let you know why, because they feel that if they pay you, they don't owe you any explanation. You will have students that you train that will think that your business success is guaranteed if you just open your doors, so why shouldn't they do the same thing down the street from you. All these things are SOP (standard operating procedure) if you have a school. My advice is to follow your dream, offer the best instruction that you possibly can and expect that a portion of your students will disappear over time. Often when my blackbelt students have a meeting, the discussion come up about "whatever happened to so-and-so" and "when I was a white belt there were 100 people ahead of me in line at class, and now none of them are here". On the other hand, I absolutely LOVE what I do, I spend more time here at my school than I ever would working for anyone else, I met my wife through HapKiDo, I make a fairly good living, and I get to travel all over the world sharing HapKiDo with folks that want to learn, I maintain a 300 student school (75% adult) with almost 50 active blackbelts, and occasionally you see your hard work pay off right in front of your eyes. I don't mean to paint a bleak picture, but I wish someone had let me know what to expect when I opened my first school almost 30 years ago. Continued good luck, and when the time comes to open your doors, count on me to lend you whatever experience I have, to make your journey easier..J. R. West www.hapkido.com ------------------------------ From: Arthur Lee <7akl3@qlink.queensu.ca> Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 21:36:35 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: abusive instructor Ma'am... I REALLY have to agree with removing your child from the guidance of that instructor.... personally, I was also in a similar situation where my instructor was a perfectionist, and wouldn't take anything less than perfection, and I, as an imperfect child in his world, did not say anything against the instructor, but my parents had the guts to take me out... it took me another ~4 years until i came back into TKD, when i could better take care of myself and consciously make the decision that i wanted to go back... one of the reasons it took me 7~8 years to get my 1st Dan... So I truly urge you to remove your child, whom i know you love, as i knew my parents did, and search for a better instructor. Arthur 2nd Dan TKD 1st Gup HDG (YA!!! got my red/black belt... it's soooo cool 8), really happy i passed... was REALLY worried) ------------------------------ From: Arthur Lee <7akl3@qlink.queensu.ca> Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 21:58:31 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Martial Spirit Vs. Money Hey Morgan... My thoughts on your new club is that you will attract a good number of students but will be left in the end with only a select few willing to continue training. The Hae Dong Gumdo Club that i'm in right now (university), usually attracts 30 members on the first day, many thinking "wow, it's cool having a martial art that uses swords!!", and once they have taken the first class, they come out saying "....oooowwww....", or "oohhh, don't touch me ANYWHERE... i am in SOOO much pain..." (our club is much like a private club rather than a university club... more harder rather than recreational... if you get my drift)... And if any members survive the first 6 classes (this is what we tell them), then they should do fine with the rest. What we usually do in the first 6 classes is teach them the basic Korean commands (they don't really have to memorize them yet...), and the basic warm-up that the rest of us are use to. We usually end up with 2~3 people that actually stay. (<10%) We are also a non-profit club, run by students for students, the founder is now a 4th year astro-physics student, and the rest of us are presently between 1st~3rd year. We have a sum total of about 11 participants. Only 3~5 students ever make it to each class (different students, different schedules). I'm not too sure as to how many children will be in your school, can really vary depending on the community that you're in. And you might get a good amount of teens/adults who are really into traditional MAs... I know that I'd personally be interested in joining a school that focused on the Way of the Warrior (i'd probably not be all that great, but i'd love to try) Hope this helps Arthur ------------------------------ From: JSaportajr@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 22:20:02 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: abusive instr In a message dated 4/18/00 7:51:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << abusive instr >> I missed some of this interesting discussion. I would like to ask a question which may have been answered. Did the mother speak to Mr. Lee about his behavior and let him know that it is unacceptable? I do not condone this instructor's behavior and agree with the posts that advised removing this girl from an abusive situation. But there may be an interesting cultural misunderstanding here. This has to do with how the Korean culture, especially the martial arts culture deals with children. I do not know if things have changed in Korean culture, but several Korean masters who are in their mid fifties and up have told me about their experience as children studying martial arts in Korea, and it was commonly what we would call abusive, though they did not see it that way. The were frequently beaten, and one Grand Master told be he would at times come home with his underwear bloodied. His parents would never have even considered saying anything to the teacher, as it was judged as likely appropriate to discipline their child and the teacher was not questioned. I know of a Korean master who is a kind and gentle man. But one of the students was working out while his children were playing on the side. They were noisy and crying, and the Korean Master, in an effort to help came out and yelled at them and made them do pushups. One of them was a three year old girl! Can you imagine a three year old girl crying and trying to do push ups? In this case I blame the father for not attending to his kids. But the Korean master was handling the situation in a manner that seemed appropriate in his culture. Another time I accompanied a man who is a Korean 9th Dan to tournament. A younger Korean man ran up to him excitedly and said, "Grand Master, do you remember me? You broke my arm in Korea." Apparently the guy was caught smoking in the dojang with some other students, they were teens. The Grandmaster smelled the smoke and no one would fess up. Grandmaster lined them up and whacked each on the side of their arm with a board, braking the arm of one of them. He seemed proud to recall the story for the Grandmaster. Now, I do not know if this is still true of Korean martial arts culture. I do think there are differences there from American culture in terms of what is thought to be abusive versus appropriate. Obviously, we do not live in Korea and so we should insist on the appropriate treatment of children according to our culture. In this case, a conversation with the teacher, who may not see himself as abusive but as being appropriate would help clear up the cultural misunderstanding and clarify for the teacher what is appropriate in our culture. Jose' ------------------------------ From: "Christopher Spiller" Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 02:56:54 GMT Subject: the_dojang: Spirit vs. the Almighty $ >From: Morgan Kochel >Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 18:32:45 -0400 >Subject: the_dojang: Martial Spirit vs. Money > >I'm very big, personally, on the Way of the Warrior. I believe strongly >that the applied effort in training should be equal to that of an actual >fight. I am all for hard training. However, training with the same intensity as you would use in a fight on a normal basis could actually be detrimental. For example, one should start out slowly when learning new techniques. This doesn't mean unfocused but you shouldn't be using atechnique in a fight that you haven't mastered. See my point here? >I believe that form should be perfect (or at least the student >should be continually working toward perfection). Yes. While "perfection" might be a lot to ask one should know a form and be able to perform it proficiently before being passed to the next rank! They should also REMEMBER their older forms! >I believe that constant >goofing off by children in class should result in some form of >"punishment", >like push-ups or even expulsion. In other words, I think training should >be >taken seriously by all students, regardless of age. Otherwise, the classes >amount to nothing more than phys. ed. classes. I have to agree with you here. Part of learning a martial art is learning discipline. If discipline isn't expected of the student then when is it ever learned? This doesn't mean I think students (especially juniors) shouldn't be warned to get back in line or to be quiet before sentenced to push-up. But there has to be a limit set by the instructor - and by the senior belts. This is part of the responsibility of being a BB. The instructor should only have to deal with discipline problems rarely. The seniors should set a good example for the juniors and, when needed, correct them - like an elder brother. > >The main question is this: Are these ideals too unreasonable to >ever make >a >successful martial arts school in this country? Well, that depends on what kind of success you are looking for. Success at the bank? PROBABLY not (but I hope so). Success at producing students who take their training seriously and gain things like discipline, courtesy, integrity, etc? Definitely. >If the focus was more on >discipline, spirituality, and training rather than exercise and >playtime >(let them go to an aerobics class for that), who in this country >would be >willing to enroll in a school like this? ME. And probably a larger then expected group of students. Practice doesn't have to be boring. In fact most kids would probably find things like flying kick contests, pattern competitions, kihap competitions, etc. as a training method to be FUN. But this doesn't mean class should be chaotic. Re: discipline in class: People, especially children, today need boundaries. That's one thing I learned as a Counselor. It doesn't help a child to let him do whatever he wants to do. He KNOWS that a lot of what he wants to do is wrong and wonders why notells him to stop. Setting limits for children is one of the best ways a parent (or teacher) can show that they care or the chld. Have clear cut guidelines for how students are to behave in class and then hold them to it. Taekwon, Chris "Every experience of beauty points to infinity." Hans Urs von Balthasar ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Chuck Sears Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 22:00:39 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Question about summer camps Question for any of my fellow instructors who have put on summer camps: We are thinking of doing summer camps this year. How did you do yours? Were they full-day or half-day? Did you have seperate sessions broken down by age groups? We obviously can't run them all day long; what did you do for activities during rest intervals? Did you show movies? Did you provide lunch or did you require them to bring their own? What did you charge? Did you think they were successful and were you able to convert most of the attendees to regular students? Obviously, I'm looking to pick brains here. Thanks in advance for your answers! ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 20:18:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [none] ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #259 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.