From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #261 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Wed, 19 April 2000 Vol 07 : Num 261 In this issue: the_dojang: Or this Rocky I training Regimen ? the_dojang: Re: Dojang Discipline the_dojang: Weight training the_dojang: Re: Summer Camp Ideas... the_dojang: squats and your chest the_dojang: Re: Dojang discipline the_dojang: Morgan's School the_dojang: Morgan's School the_dojang: Re: Spirit vs. the Almighty $ the_dojang: Morgan's School the_dojang: Discipline [none] ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 800 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ken McDonough Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 07:25:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Or this Rocky I training Regimen ? The following training regimen could be a variation of the training method just forwarded: Rocky I Training Routine. a. Up at 5 am. 6 raw eggs in blender, but do not stir. b. Briefly stretch and run outside to monument. When running have Rocky I theme on. c. When reaching monument (3 blocks away) place hands upwardly and claim personal victory. d. Visit Mickey's Meat House and pound out hand combinations on raw meat hanging by hooks. Ensure hand wraps are on. e. Take a few cuts of meat and prepare for brunch. f. Do not engage in any sexual activities. For men, remember, "Women weaken legs." For women--I can't speak for you. g. Bag work. h. Buy chicken, tie your legs. Let chicken go in your backyard and try to catch chicken. This improves your speed and timing. Well, whaddya think ? McD... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: "Stovall, David C." Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 10:34:33 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Dojang Discipline Jim wrote: "I guess the thought is that we don't want the students to view pushups (or crunches or running or whatever) as punishment. We want them to see the training to which we submit as a positive thing and something to be desired. Sitting out and missing the training - now *that* is supposed to suck." I applaude your way of thinking, and I like the idea of segregating the offender from the group's participation as a vehicle of punishment. I have great confidence that this is a more effective method in the long-run than PT. Please keep us updated as to how this approach works out for you. Good luck. ------------------------------ From: "Silke Schulz" Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 07:55:54 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Weight training Mitar wrote: >I mean working in the gym once (or twice) a week with reasonable >weights, mostly on upper part of the body. Do you think it could effect TKD >abbilities in negative manner? Not for somebody who is preparing for The >Olympics, but for an ordinary person that practices TKD and perhaps have some >plans for going to competitions. All responses and thoughts are very welcome. I can only answer for myself and from my experience here. About six months ago I began a serious weight training regimen. Since then my speed and endurance have both improved dramatically. I don't feel that I have sacrificed any flexibility by training with weights. I stretch in between sets in order to maintain flexibility. IMHO, weight training--done properly--can enhance your TKD skills tremendously. Go for it! Silke ------------------------------ From: Clarketkd@aol.com Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 10:59:54 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Summer Camp Ideas... In response to Mr Sears request for summer camp ideas.....I have attended Master Choi's summer camps in Oregon for the last 4 years (he has had camps probably for the last 20 years) and enjoy them thoroughly. The appeal to his camps lies in the diversity of offerings. He invites many other local masters and instructors to participate in planning the agenda. Each one has their own specialty and this adds to the attraction. The fee is very reasonable and covers fees for the camp site and access to all of the classes/seminars offered. The fee can be broken down if not attending for the whole 3 days but typically runs $20/day for the student and his/her family members. The camp is held far enough away to make it feel like a mini-vacation, and runs for 3 days (Fri-Sun). Segments include weapons, basic training, sparring clinics, pressure point seminars, referee seminars for the instructors etc...Best of all, he saves all Black Belt promotion exams for the summer camp so that all attending the camp can watch. He gets a large turnout because the instructors invited from other schools bring their students as well. It is a well rounded, exhausting 3 days and most, if not all of the "down time" between the segments is spent sleeping. If you hold the camp at a nice facility like maybe a KOA campground, there are usually enough distractions provided by the camp host. The KOA here has a video room, pool, game room, and Karaoke every night. It is alot of fun. Students are required to bring their own food, just like real camping but, on Sunday after the Black Belt testing is over, he hosts a big barbecue for the whole camp which is a BLAST and a good way to meet students from all over the state and share ideas. Most of the attendees were already students but, they brought their families with them and some of those were converts who joined the dojang soon after realizing that TKD is more than just kicking and punching. Friendships are made during those 3 days that will last forever........Good luck and have fun! Clarke ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 8:30:09 PDT Subject: the_dojang: squats and your chest > > If they are kicking properly, and doing say 20-30 minutes of kicks and leg > > exercises in an hour class it should be more than aerobic. Pumping the leg > > muscles around forces the heart and lungs to work overtime. That's why > > non-steroid body builders do squats in addition to bench to expand the rib > > cage. > >I'm very interested in your statement that "non-steroid body builders" do >squats to expand the rib cage. Can you explain that? I've been doing some >body building myself, and as far as I know, squats are being done to strengthen >your thighs (OK, not solely, perhaps abdominal muscles and calves are getting >something from the exercise too but the effect is very minor), but the rib >cage? Maybe you were thinking of another exercise? If not, please explain this. I'm not a PE specialist, but this is a fairly old concept. I first recall reading about it some 30 or 35 years ago, so my recollection is a bit foggy. As I recall the concept was that squats expanded the chest and rib cage because of the heavy and deep breathing induced by the exercise. This is chest/lung capacity related, not strength related. Put 300 or 400 lbs across your shoulders and do a dozen squats. What gets you more out of breath and breathing deeper than that? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: JSaportajr@aol.com Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 11:13:15 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Dojang discipline In a message dated 4/19/00 10:27:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Dojang discipline >> Many of the students that you describe, who cannot stay still or keep quiet could have attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD). You might read up on this disorder ti get a better understanding of these kids and how to structure their training. (I think that 8 out of 10 martial arts instructors I've known have ADHD, I think martial arts draws people with this disorder.) Im sure may instructors on the list can tell you how they manage kids in the Dojang with ADHD. I don't think "discipline" is going to do much. Instead, you may have to structure their training in a way that accommodates how their brains work. Like with everyone, you would structure their training so that it capitalizes on their strengths and helps them adapt to their weaknesses. Structure their class in a way that accommodates their difficulty with sustaining attention and their difficulty inhibiting themselves. For example, activities that grip their attention but are brief are probably better than activities that require sustained attention and may not be that exiting -- such as practicing forms. Kids with ADHD do best with: Structure, Novelty, and Motivation. So keep things structured with many new or different tasks and find creative ways to enhance motivation. Find ways to funnel their energy. ADHD kids are not able to inhibit themselves -- they act first and think later. This is not because they lack discipline, it is because that part of the brain responsible for inhibiting behavior doesn't work as well. Maybe there are ways to incorporate that, make use of it in their training, such as tasks where having a fast reaction time are rewarded. Im sure many others on the list have experience working with ADHD kids in the Dojang and have other ideas. Jose' ------------------------------ From: Morgan Kochel Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 11:24:05 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Morgan's School J.R. West wrote: > Morgan, you have a great future in front of you as far as your outlook on > martial arts training is concerned, however, as W.C. Fields would say, > "sometimes you have to grab the bull by the tail and face the situation". > When you open your doors to the public, you will find, as most of us have, > that any nutball that doesn't come into your school is either dead or in > jail. That being said, the ONLY person in your building that will not have > a life outside of martial arts is YOU! The sooner that you accept this, the > happier you will be. This is not hard to accept. My question was originally, "Do I really want to teach martial arts to people who are in it only for a hobby, or for 'getting in shape'?" The more I think about it, I'm thinking "no". > Not everyone follows the way of the warrior, some just > want to lose weight, some want to be fit, some want to be the "first on > their block to be the last on their block", some have just "always wanted to > do it", and some even want to follow the warrior spirit. The problem is, > you must pay bills in order to keep the doors open and offer your program to > those special few, and in order to pay bills, you must bite the bullet on a > few things. Again, I never denied there are people out there who are in it for these goals. But as I mentioned before, I wouldn't open a school for the money. Luckily, I'm in a position where that doesn't have to be the main concern. So if that's not the main concern, wouldn't a quality martial arts school be better? > The main one is having to teach people s that have no basic > interest in learning, working hard, being good, or improving themselves past > the point that they are. So, are you saying, in your opinion, the only reason to teach these people would be to pay the bills? > Don't get me wrong, some of the kids I have run > across are absolutely incredible from the time they walk in the door, and > some become that way because of your input, but most are just spending time, > theirs, their parents and yours. You will train black belts that will just > not come back to class and never take the time to let you know why, because > they feel that if they pay you, they don't owe you any explanation. You > will have students that you train that will think that your business success > is guaranteed if you just open your doors, so why shouldn't they do the same > thing down the street from you. All these things are SOP (standard > operating procedure) if you have a school. My advice is to follow your > dream, offer the best instruction that you possibly can and expect that a > portion of your students will disappear over time. Often when my blackbelt > students have a meeting, the discussion come up about "whatever happened to > so-and-so" and "when I was a white belt there were 100 people ahead of me in > line at class, and now none of them are here". On the other hand, I > absolutely LOVE what I do, I spend more time here at my school than I ever > would working for anyone else, I met my wife through HapKiDo, I make a > fairly good living, and I get to travel all over the world sharing HapKiDo > with folks that want to learn, I maintain a 300 student school (75% adult) > with almost 50 active blackbelts, and occasionally you see your hard work > pay off right in front of your eyes. I don't mean to paint a bleak picture, > but I wish someone had let me know what to expect when I opened my first > school almost 30 years ago. Continued good luck, and when the time comes to > open your doors, count on me to lend you whatever experience I have, to make > your journey easier. I really do appreciate your feedback. I suppose that since money is not my main goal with a martial arts school, I can afford to be more choosy. To me, teaching spirituality (and that's what martial arts are to me) to people who are completely oblivious of it is, well, a waste of time. Again, I'm approaching martial arts from a Buddhist/Taoist perspective as well as from the Way of the Warrior. The two, to me, aren't separable unless I lowered my class standard to a mere physical workout. But this is only *my* opinion, folks, and I am NOT attempting to demean anyone's school or teaching methods here. There are two excellent books out that show what my form of martial arts school would be like (and they are EXCELLENT reading for any martial artist): _Beyond the Known : The Ultimate Goal of Martial Arts_ and _Toward the Unknown : Martial Artist, What Shall You Become?_ both by Tri Thong Dang Both are available through Amazon.com. Thanks, JRW, for your input! Pilseung! Morgan ------------------------------ From: Morgan Kochel Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 11:32:33 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Morgan's School Arthur wrote: > My thoughts on your new club is that you will attract a good number of > students but will be left in the end with only a select few willing to > continue training. HA! I did think of that. I guess that's the price one pays for finding "real" students. :-) > The Hae Dong Gumdo Club that i'm in right now > (university), usually attracts 30 members on the first day, many > thinking "wow, it's cool having a martial art that uses swords!!", and > once they have taken the first class, they come out saying > "....oooowwww....", or "oohhh, don't touch me ANYWHERE... i am in SOOO > much pain..." (our club is much like a private club rather than a > university club... more harder rather than recreational... if you get my > drift)... And if any members survive the first 6 classes (this is what > we tell them), then they should do fine with the rest. What we usually > do in the first 6 classes is teach them the basic Korean commands (they > don't really have to memorize them yet...), and the basic warm-up that > the rest of us are use to. Sounds wonderful to me! I guess those who complain about little owies or that it's "too haaaaard!" are the ones I would weed out if I could. > We usually end up with 2~3 people that actually stay. (<10%) Bummer. I wonder if it would be different in another (less whiney) country? (Yes, I'm an American, too.) > We are also a non-profit club, run by students for students, the founder > is now a 4th year astro-physics student, and the rest of us are > presently between 1st~3rd year. We have a sum total of about 11 > participants. Only 3~5 students ever make it to each class (different > students, different schedules). > > I'm not too sure as to how many children will be in your school, can > really vary depending on the community that you're in. And you might get > a good amount of teens/adults who are really into traditional MAs... I > know that I'd personally be interested in joining a school that focused > on the Way of the Warrior (i'd probably not be all that great, but i'd > love to try) I'm probably thinning out my class to oblivion, but I would rather not accept children, either. Not because I have anything against children, but just because most children I've run into aren't that disciplined. I taught half of a children's class at my dojang last Monday, and was appalled at how hard it was to control these kids (my Sahbumnim is their usual teacher). Their uniforms were dirty, no one kept their belt tight (some would even fall off), and they'd generally yell, goof off, and make weak attempts at the moves during class. If it were my school, I would have layed (laid?) into them! But it's not, so I just kept going. So I don't think I would be teaching a class that children would enjoy unless they were mature enough to understand the purpose of martial arts. I wonder if Bruce Lee was able to do it? Surely, he must've had the training of a true Warrior from the Shaolin Temple? He must've taught a serious class, and HE seemed to find people who were serious. So, I'm thinking, it must be possible(?) Pilseung, Morgan ------------------------------ From: Morgan Kochel Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 11:42:58 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Spirit vs. the Almighty $ >> I'm very big, personally, on the Way of the Warrior. I believe strongly >> that the applied effort in training should be equal to that of an actual >> fight. Chris responded > I am all for hard training. However, training with the same intensity as you > would use in a fight on a normal basis could actually be detrimental. For > example, one should start out slowly when learning new techniques. This > doesn't mean unfocused but you shouldn't be using atechnique in a fight that > you haven't mastered. See my point here? Yes, and I agree with you. I suppose I was talking students who already know the forms and moves -- for instance, there is a woman of 50-something in our class who is a red belt (which is something like 6th gup out of 15 in our school). She was doing a greenbelt form, which she's had months and months to practice. Her execution of the moves could only be described as "cute" and/or dance-like -- though pretty, her moves would be extrememly ineffective in a sparring match or a real fight. As a teacher, at her level, I would have expected much more power, and I wouldn't advance her until I saw that power. >> I believe that form should be perfect (or at least the student >> should be continually working toward perfection). > > Yes. While "perfection" might be a lot to ask one should know a form and be > able to perform it proficiently before being passed to the next rank! They > should also REMEMBER their older forms! Definitely! I guess I should clarify -- "perfection" would me that they can perform the forms to the absolute best of *their* ability. I think a good teacher would know what their best would look like after working with them for some time. >> I believe that constant goofing off by children in class should result in >> some form of "punishment", like push-ups or even expulsion. In other words, >> I think training should be taken seriously by all students, regardless of >> age. Otherwise, the classes amount to nothing more than phys. ed. classes. > > I have to agree with you here. Part of learning a martial art is learning > discipline. If discipline isn't expected of the student then when is it ever > learned? This doesn't mean I think students (especially juniors) shouldn't > be warned to get back in line or to be quiet before sentenced to push-up. Right. I agree. > But there has to be a limit set by the instructor - and by the senior belts. > This is part of the responsibility of being a BB. The instructor should only > have to deal with discipline problems rarely. The seniors should set a good > example for the juniors and, when needed, correct them - like an elder > brother. Yes! And assigning an older kid the responsibility of being a mentor would help that older kid even more, I think. >> The main question is this: Are these ideals too unreasonable to ever make a >> successful martial arts school in this country? > > Well, that depends on what kind of success you are looking for. Success at > the bank? PROBABLY not (but I hope so). Success at producing students who > take their training seriously and gain things like discipline, courtesy, > integrity, etc? Definitely. I guess that's my main goal, then. >> If the focus was more on discipline, spirituality, and training rather than >> exercise and playtime (let them go to an aerobics class for that), who in >> this country would be willing to enroll in a school like this? > > ME. And probably a larger then expected group of students. Practice doesn't > have to be boring. In fact most kids would probably find things like flying > kick contests, pattern competitions, kihap competitions, etc. as a training > method to be FUN. But this doesn't mean class should be chaotic. That's good to hear. I tend to think so, too. > Re: discipline in class: People, especially children, today need boundaries. > That's one thing I learned as a Counselor. It doesn't help a child to let > him do whatever he wants to do. He KNOWS that a lot of what he wants to do > is wrong and wonders why notells him to stop. Setting limits for children is > one of the best ways a parent (or teacher) can show that they care or the > chld. Have clear cut guidelines for how students are to behave in class and > then hold them to it. I was a counselor as well, but my specialty was dealing with drug-addicted folk. I think that sort of training really would help with communicating with students in the future. Thanks for your input! Pilseung, Morgan ------------------------------ From: Morgan Kochel Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 11:50:51 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Morgan's School Rick Foley wrote: > Take some time to think about the reality of school ownership. J.R. West's > post is exactly in line with the reality of owning a school. I spent 19 > years training under my instructor before I opened a school of my own and I > watched him try to instill martial art into the hearts of his students. The > last six years of training with him, I was the senior student. Of my > contemporaries that started training in the mid to late '70's, only 3 still > train, which is probably a high percentage. > > Rule number 1. No rent money, no school. > Rule number 2. Everyone will stop coming to class someday. > Rule number 3. Don't take it personally Very good rules to live by! > Train hard, but be reasonable. I bet you went to school your whole life and > didn't get straight A's every year, but they promoted you. To expect > perfection from every student is to be disappointed all the time. You really > want to live like that? Yes. The reason is that I don't take a student's failure personally *so long as I have done my best as a teacher*. I can't control what others do, and I'm well aware of the lack of discipline in the general American public. Perhaps I can credit this attitude to my training as a counselor, where the maxim is, "Never work harder than the client." Simply put, I would not take it personal, because everyone's on their own path. > When you open your school, be prepared for your disconnection from society. > Concerts, sporting events, TV, eating dinner, and other things that you may > take for granted now will be things of the past. Good thing to think about. Good thing I don't do any of that now! ;-) Well, except for the eating dinner part. Hm. Maybe I should consider opening such a school very close to home, if not in my home? > Class, students, inventory, > lesson plans, paperwork, the day job, and your own training (Yikes!) will > take up your available time, at least until you have enough students to hire > someone to take over some things. I'm working as a volunteer for my Sahbumnim right now. I told him I want to open my own school some day, so I'm learning all the ropes while I help him out. Perhaps there would be other students who are willing to donate their time. If not, I don't have a day job, so I'll bet I could handle it. At least, I'll have a good idea if I can handle it after working for him for a while. > The market is fairly saturated, so you won't open your doors and have success > waltz in. It'll take time. You may teach 6 days a week for 2-3 years before > you do more than pay the rent. And that's if you can stand to train students > who don't have the warrior mindset, and don't run them off. A small strong > cadre is great, but they simply won't pay the bills. I will definitely keep that under consideration. Thanks for that input! > I wouldn't do anything else and I can't believe how rewarding it is, but you > have got to really understand what it is you commit to when you open a > school. You gave me lots to think about. Can you (or anyone else) give me an idea of just how MUCH paperwork is involved? I know there are the general things, like accounting, keeping track of quarterly taxes, certificates, report cards, etc. But are there a lot of other things besides? (Sorry, but I haven't learned everything yet.) :-) Even better -- is there a book out there somewhere that gives advice on starting a school? Thanks! Pilseung, Morgan ------------------------------ From: Morgan Kochel Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 11:53:47 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Discipline > We were assigning pushups (after warnings) to the offenders and getting > mixed results. Now we're taking a different approach. Now the policy is to > give a warning on the first offence. The second offence earns the student > several minutes of quiet meditation while the rest of us continue to train. > On the third offence, the student is removed for the remainder of that > class. So far we haven't made it to third offence. . . . > Sitting out and missing the training - now *that* is supposed to suck. Wow! What an excellent idea! But what about making meditation suck? How about just having them sit out and watch the training for 10-15 minutes? Just a thot. Pilseung, Morgan ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 09:00:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [none] ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #261 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.