From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #262 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Wed, 19 April 2000 Vol 07 : Num 262 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: Or this Rocky I training Regimen ? the_dojang: Weight Training the_dojang: Re: Morgan's School the_dojang: School info for Morgan the_dojang: Re: discipline and Starting a school the_dojang: "ADHD" the_dojang: Re: Discipline the_dojang: Re: Morgan's School the_dojang: Re: Spirit vs. the Almighty $ the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #261 the_dojang: big chests [none] ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 800 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last four years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Pfeifer, Steve" Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 12:38:21 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Or this Rocky I training Regimen ? >>> The following training regimen could be a variation of the training method just forwarded: Rocky I Training Routine. <<< Don't forget to "Eat lightning and cr*p thunder." (Actually from Rocky II, just like the chicken thing) ------------------------------ From: Morgan Kochel Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 12:52:11 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Weight Training Silke wrote: > IMHO, weight training--done properly--can enhance your TKD skills > tremendously. I agree wholeheartedly!!! I train with weights six days a week, and my punches have been MUCH stronger, as well as the force of my kicks. Now, if I could only get those flying kicks down.... Pilseung, Morgan ------------------------------ From: jsegovia@mindspring.com Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 13:01:23 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Morgan's School Morgan wrote: > So, are you saying, in your opinion, the only reason to teach these people > would be to pay the bills? Morgan, I hope you know this is NOT what GM West is saying. These folks will gets lots of benefit, commensurate with their effort, from studying with GM West. But the students aren't there just to make their instructor happy, or to help the instructor achieve his or her goals. They are there for their own reasons, and they bring to the dojang who they are, not what we want them to be, or what we *know* inside they could be. As for money, if you're wealthy enough to be able to afford to run a school purely for the fun of it, that's fantastic. But most everyone else at least needs to recoup their investment, if not pay all their bills, which means their martial arts business is just that, a business. That means what some would call compromise. Personally, I think if instructors only taught those they enjoy teaching, of those they are 100% comfortable with, then we're back to the days of martial arts being a deep, dark secret, passed down only to members of secret societies. What about the working stiffs like me, with limited time to indulge their dreams of improved physical fitness and self defense proficiency? Jesse ------------------------------ From: Howard Wilson Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 13:02:03 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: School info for Morgan Morgan, check at http://www.turtlepress.com they have books and articles for school owners and instructors. Check their online catalog and under the "More Articles" box goto View All Articles. Might find something that will help. Howard Wilson, ATA http://w3.one.net ------------------------------ From: Arthur Lee <7akl3@qlink.queensu.ca> Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 13:16:32 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: discipline and Starting a school Hey Morgan... all i know about starting a school is that there's probably books out there on starting a small business, or even books on non-profit organizations... i don't know which you're into... (probably non-profit by the looks of it) and what i kind of understand after glancing through the books is that there are different procedures to go through if you're in the non-profit business (different forms, different things to fill out... yada yada, blah blah... i don't know the specifics sorry) about the discipline, what would happen at the school that i went to long ago, was first a verbal warning was given to the student, and if a second infraction/violation occurred then we would make them do something called "Go-ra-ba-ga" (??? i think this is how it sounds... ummm). Anyways, what this punishment involved was having the student stay in the corner of the class and bend over, touching their head to the ground, so that only three pints of the body were touching the ground, head and two feet. the hands were placed behind the back. What I would do for beginner students is show them myself what the punishment was and warn them that if they weren't disciplined, then they would have to do this... This was only used rarely, in all my 7~8 years of TKD, i've only seen it done to maybe 20 people total... after one person has seen another do it... no one ever wants to cross the teacher... too badly anyways... other than that, we would generally scare the kids with it... and they would listen immediately... is this punishment mean??? i don't know... but it sure was preventive... i mean we would still let the kids fool around during break time all they wanted, but when it came to practice... they practiced... and we would have occasional fun classes with the kids... oh yeah... we'd only make them do this type of punishment for a about 30 seconds or so... or if there was more than one person being punished, i would usually count 15~20 seconds and both people would have to sustain it together... then i would give them a stern warning and let them continue class... I don't know how well this will work for students older than kids.... And if it means anything to anyone, my Sabumnim was Korean, 1st gen. (so following the argument given in a previous digest, he's kinda set in his ways....) Arthur ------------------------------ From: Morgan Kochel Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 13:22:47 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: "ADHD" Jose wrote: > << Dojang discipline >> > Many of the students that you describe, who cannot stay still or keep quiet > could have attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD). You might read up > on this disorder ti get a better understanding of these kids and how to > structure their training. (I think that 8 out of 10 martial arts instructors > I've known have ADHD, I think martial arts draws people with this disorder.) > Im sure may instructors on the list can tell you how they manage kids in the > Dojang with ADHD. Well, I appreciate this advice, but I have to disagree here. As an ex-counselor, I've been fairly well trained in the concept of ADHD, and my own opinion is that this is a *mythical* "disorder". Our culture fosters this type of inability to concentrate. Watch most any music video or commercial and you'll find that quick scene changes, flashy computer effects, and weird, unstable camera angles are the current techniques employed. This fosters a lack of attention in children, as well as in some adults. The same types of things happen in our everyday culture and in advertising away from television. Using this approach, I've dealt with many clients with this diagnosis, and recommended insight meditation with less (or no) TV. Concentration exercises were also suggested. Those who followed my advice no longer fit the criteria for a diagnosis of ADHD. > I don't think "discipline" is going to do much. Instead, > you may have to structure their training in a way that accommodates how their > brains work. Like with everyone, you would structure their training so that > it capitalizes on their strengths and helps them adapt to their weaknesses. Most definitely! By the term "discipline", I am not saying "punishment" (though I know I wasn't clear on this from the beginning). Any person, regardless of age, will respond more to positive reinforcement rather than punishment. This is exactly why capital punishment doesn't work, but that's another topic. ;-) > Structure their class in a way that accommodates their difficulty with > sustaining attention and their difficulty inhibiting themselves. For example, > activities that grip their attention but are brief are probably better than > activities that require sustained attention and may not be that exiting -- > such as practicing forms. Kids with ADHD do best with: Structure, Novelty, > and Motivation. So keep things structured with many new or different tasks > and find creative ways to enhance motivation. Find ways to funnel their > energy. ADHD kids are not able to inhibit themselves -- they act first and > think later. This is not because they lack discipline, it is because that > part of the brain responsible for inhibiting behavior doesn't work as well. I understand your position. However, my own work with ADHD has proven to work, which tells me that supporting a child's notion that they don't have to learn to pay attention is more detrimental than teaching them *how* to remain focused. Since I've been able to do this successfully with many clients, that has proven to me that coddling disruptive and non-focused attention spans only reinforces the problem. > Maybe there are ways to incorporate that, make use of it in their training, > such as tasks where having a fast reaction time are rewarded. Im sure many > others on the list have experience working with ADHD kids in the Dojang and > have other ideas. Try some focusing exercises in your class. Try lengthening the time of the meditation period (if you offer that) with an explanation as to what they're trying to accomplish. Help them see that paying attention and focusing is positive and rewarding, rather than something they can excuse because of a label some psychologist came up with to avoid dealing with failures in his/her treatment methods. An interesting article on the ADHD fallacy by Fred A. Baughman, Jr., M.D.can be found at: http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/8568/Baughman_MD_ADD_ADHD_Ritalin.htm A noisy mind is the culprit. Quite the internal noise and the Self becomes quiet. Pilseung. Morgan ------------------------------ From: "Jim Griffin" Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 13:23:44 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Discipline Good point about meditation. I wish I could claim the ideas I mentioned were mine, but I can't. It's nice having a network of experienced instructors full of clever ideas to draw from. :-) Right now, I'm just a lowly assistant instructor (or as my 6 year old daughter says - insistent instructor), but I'll definately recommend we modify our policy to have the child watch rather than meditate. - ---begin quoted message--- From: Morgan Kochel Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 11:53:47 -0400 >We were assigning pushups (after warnings) to the offenders and getting >mixed results. Now we're taking a different approach. Now the policy is >to >give a warning on the first offence. The second offence earns the student >several minutes of quiet meditation while the rest of us continue to train. >On the third offence, the student is removed for the remainder of that >class. So far we haven't made it to third offence.. . . >Sitting out and missing the training - now *that* is supposed to suck. Wow! What an excellent idea! But what about making meditation suck? How about just having them sit out and watch the training for 10-15 minutes? Just a thot.Pilseung,Morgan - ---end quoted message--- ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: JSaportajr@aol.com Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 14:13:58 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Morgan's School In a message dated 4/19/00 12:05:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << My question was originally, "Do I really want to teach martial arts to people who are in it only for a hobby, or for 'getting in shape'?" The more I think about it, I'm thinking "no". >> At the risk of overreacting, your post here touched a nerve. What is wrong with martial arts training for a hobby or for getting in shape? I've been training in martial arts since 1975. My motives to train varied depending on what else was happening in my life. Some times it played a central role in my life, including a lot of competition; other times, such as when I was in medical school or residency it took a back seat and was a hobby that helped me stay in shape. When my children were young I put them before training. My teachers always welcomed me to train whatever my motives and I always felt my reasons for training were understood and respected. It felt good to always be welcomed back for whatever reason. Your post suggests an elitist attitude. It seems that you are looking down your nose at people who have different motives to train in martial arts. (i.e.: you speak of lowering the "qualaity" of your school by teaching these people). I would never want to train under a person who was not able to appreciate and respect the variety of reasons people are drawn to the martial arts. Your attitude implies disrespect towards those who come to your dojang for their own reasons, and I feel sorry for students that have a teacher that looks down on them in that way and thinks her own reasons to train are the best or most legitimate, but who still tolerates them just to get their money. The best martial artist I have known is an 8th dan in TKD 8th dan in Hapkido and a former professional kick boxer with an undefeated record. I don't think many people could claim to have trained as hard as he has in his life; he really lived the life of a warrior, including combat in Vietnam in the Korean Tiger Division and self defense instructor for this division.Yet, his attitude is one of humility and respect for people who want to train for whatever reason. This is not an insincere attitude to pay the rent; it is obviously sincere. I have also attended seminars with Juan Moreno, who trains harder than most martial artists in the country. His attitude was always one of praise and respect for what ever brings people to train. Why is it that the best martial artists seem to be the ones most open to and have the most respect for peoples' varied motives for martial arts training? I don't think the answer is money. I think that they are secure enough in themselves that they do not need to judge other people's reasons for training, but instead they can understand and welcome people who are there for various motives. Many people who are not living the "life of a warrior" (whatever that means in modern society) can apply the lessons they learn in martial arts training to their life. Im sorry Morgan, but I don't like the attitude that seems to be implied in your post, though I may have been mistaken in the attitude that I read there. Jose' ------------------------------ From: jsegovia@mindspring.com Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 14:22:23 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Spirit vs. the Almighty $ Morgan wrote: > there is a woman of 50-something in our class who is a red belt > ... > As a teacher, at her > level, I would have expected much more power, and I wouldn't advance her > until I saw that power. Be careful that you recognize what a student is capable of, and reward the student for achieving that. I was at a KukSool awards ceremony once and noticed a (what's the PC way to put this?) very overweight blackbelt in uniform. Guess who the master picked for part of the demonstration? I never saw her throw a single kick, but she was throwing her partner around like a ragdoll, and she was a demon with the short stick. It was obvious she could use this stuff when it counted. But if her instructor was a stickler for requirements and insisted she do, say, jumping kicks and acrobatic moves perfectly, I doubt she would've reached black belt, or achieved as highly as she did in self defense techniques and weapons. Jesse ------------------------------ From: "Mitar or Marko" Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 21:50:12 +0100 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #261 > From: "Silke Schulz" > Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 07:55:54 -0700 > Subject: the_dojang: Weight training > .................. > I can only answer for myself and from my experience here. About six months > ago I began a serious weight training regimen. Since then my speed and > endurance have both improved dramatically. I don't feel that I have > sacrificed any flexibility by training with weights. I stretch in between > sets in order to maintain flexibility. > .................. Thank you for your reply! I have a few questions for you. What do you mean by "serious weight training regimen"? How many times a week do you usually practice? Do you work with light weights but many repetitions, or heavy weights / few repetitions? What percentage of your possibilites do you use? (Explanation: Let's say that a person can push maximally 100 kg from a bench position. That would be his maximal strength. Nevertheless, when he does bench exercise, he doesn't push 100 kg, but 70 kg. That is the way he wants to do. The percentage I'm talking about is 70%). So, what percentage of your maximal strength do you use for exercises in the gym? I hope this is not so hard question as it sounds like! Sorry for bothering and thanks! .................... > From: Ray Terry > Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 8:30:09 PDT > Subject: the_dojang: squats and your chest > .................. > I'm not a PE specialist, but this is a fairly old concept. I first recall > reading about it some 30 or 35 years ago, so my recollection is a bit foggy. > As I recall the concept was that squats expanded the chest and rib cage > because of the heavy and deep breathing induced by the exercise. This is > chest/lung capacity related, not strength related. Put 300 or 400 lbs across > your shoulders and do a dozen squats. What gets you more out of breath and > breathing deeper than that? > .................. Thank you Mr Terry. I don't want to sound disrespective, but this concept sounds a little senseless for the claimed purpose to me. Perhaps it was used years ago, but today, it is superseded by other, more effective methods. If the point of squats for expending rib cage is in deep breathing, then why doing squats at all? Deep breathing during squats' exercise isn't "deeper" at all then in other exercises that are usually being done (push - ups, pull - ups, etc.). If one follows this method, he can beleive that his chest is expending while doing any exercise, not just squats. Or he could stand straight, do nothing, and breath in and out as "deep" as he can?! If somebody wants to expend their chest by this method (deep breathing), swimming would be more apropriate for sure. This is just my humble opinion. Mitar ------------------------------------------------------------ E - mail: tkwd@drenik.net If you want to know anything about Tae Kwon Do, visit us at: http://home.drenik.net/tkwd ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 13:31:35 PDT Subject: the_dojang: big chests > If somebody wants to expend their chest by this method (deep breathing), > swimming would be more apropriate for sure. Not more appropriate for sure, but yes that also works. Depending on the individual in question, perhaps better, perhaps not as well. Different people respond differently. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 13:40:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [none] ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #262 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.