From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #265 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thur, 20 April 2000 Vol 07 : Num 265 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #263 Re: the_dojang: Morgans school #2 the_dojang: profit ? the_dojang: Re: "ADHD" the_dojang: Charles' School! the_dojang: Re: Korean Masters the_dojang: Re: Children of the 90's the_dojang: Re:ADHD the_dojang: Training Advice Please. the_dojang: on ADHD the_dojang: RE: Korean Masters the_dojang: re: refusal to teach adhd kids on drugs the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #259 the_dojang: ADD, ADHD, ADLD the_dojang: Re: ADHD the_dojang: is vs. is not ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 800+ members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LenGWhite@cs.com Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 09:51:39 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #263 In a message dated 4/19/00 7:53:39 PM Central Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: > Concerning ADHD or ADD. Someone already said it. > > Adults Don't Discipline > > I am a full time MA instructor and I treat every child the same. > > ADD and ADHD has maid millions for the medical business, drugged more kids > than we want to think about, and gave parents an excuse for their kids > behavior. > > Did ADD exist before Day Care? I want to Know?! > > Gary Of course ADD existed before Day Care. I have two children, one who excells easily at everything she does from soccer, to piano, to TKD. My second does the same activities and has a total lack of focus. Both are treated the same, yet the second is constantly frustrated because of her lack of success (due to lack of focus). You MUST NOT treat all the children the same. ADD, or kids lacking focus if you want to put a different handle on it, is best handled by YOU focusing on the kid to ensure that THEY understand the activity you expect them to carry out. Front kick, touch down, side kick, punch is about as much as my daughter can retain in short term memory. Yelling at her, or making her do pushups because she did not follow your general instructions is destructive to her, and potentially disruptive to the class. Put into perspective ADD is not a disease, but a trait. Traits can be worked around, and kids treated right WILL improve. Kids treated wrong will become the problem teenagers and adults of tomorrow. I would be interested to know how Gary would react to a kid who came to class having lost an arm. Treating them ALL the same would exclude the kid from punching exercises requiring two hands. Or would he find a way to work around that. Yes, it can be overcome, as can ADD, with care and attention. I have more input if anyone is interested, to my private email: lengwhite@cs.com. We do not drug our kid -- we love her, mentally nourish her, and lead her to excel for we believe that one day she will excel on her own -- as does her fifth dan instructor, by the way. Len ------------------------------ From: Morgan Kochel Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 10:00:38 -0400 Subject: Re: the_dojang: Morgans school #2 JRW wrote: > The problem with the idea of teaching only "dedicated" people is how you > will go about determining who is dedicated and who is not. Everyone that > walks in your door thinks that they are or will be dedicated, and peoples' > dedication will change from day to day and from situation to situation. I > will teach any fool that walks in my door, and one of two things will > happen, 1st, they will have or develop a training attitude within the 1st > year, and everyone will be happy, or 2nd, they will NOT develop this > attitude within the 1st year and they will leave, again making everyone > happy, but I have seen people that I thought would never make it through the > first month go on to be some of my best students ( one of my best Blackbelts > wrote on his initial application that the reason he wanted to train with us > was because our uniforms were "cool"), and, by the same token, some of the > students that I thought had the utmost ability and desire, left within the > first few months or so. Very good point. That is something that I would definitely have to work out. In the case of a spiritual school, perhaps a beginning class could be created that consists of philosophy and basic moves to see if they enjoy it and want to know more. In my present school, the white belt has to be earned. Maybe something of that nature could be used. > Believe me, ALL YOU CAN DO is teach whoever comes > to you with any level of desire, and do your best to indoctrinate them to > beauty that is martial art. Remember YOU are the expert, and it is up to > you to make sure that as many people as possible are exposed to the arts, > and you never know when the next future master is going to walk in your door > and ask you some stupid question about martial arts (when do we learn to > kill people? etc.). Look past all the characterization and teach as many as > you possibly can as well as you possibly can, the ones who stay with you > will thank you...This is your job as a teacher... I'm not sure I agree with you on that point. For example, my piano teacher, a concert pianist, would not teach anyone who walked through the door. A student had to show dedication and a tolerance for constant correction. Inevitably, her students all ended up concert pianists themselves. By doing this, she also developed a good reputation simply because she was seen as "so good" that she was hard to get classes with. Sounds shallow in one way, but in truth she actually *was* a fantastic teacher who cared greatly about her motivated students -- and she didn't waste time with those who thought playing the piano was "cool". On the other hand, your point is well taken about allowing those who may become good students to at least be given a chance. This could be done by having classes outside the main class -- kinda like bootcamp without the rudeness. :-) If someone didn't make it, it's not an insult, but rather a way for them to tell if they like the style of teaching, and whether they agree with the philosophy of the school enough to stick with it. Pilseung! Morgan ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 7:28:58 PDT Subject: the_dojang: profit ? > There is a nonprofit Jujitsu school near here that I train at once a month > (I trade kicking class for Randori practice) They have been in continuous > operation for the last 30 or so years...all from volunteer instructors. > Wonderful group of open-minded MA'ists. Non-profit can be a real > possibility, and some federal grant $ is available for this. Very interesting idea. Do you know if it is actually non-profit or might it be a not-for-profit operation? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Morgan Kochel Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 10:38:51 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: "ADHD" > < and my own opinion is that this is a *mythical* "disorder".>> Jose wrote: > I am a psychiatrist on the clinical faculty of Harvard Medical School. Im > sure that much of what you say about the noise in our culture and how it > affects kid's ability to concentrate is true, and Im sure that the techniques > you use with kids are helpful for those with and without ADHD (though they > cant be 100% effective or you would not have written to the list requesting > advice on how to handle these kids). This is getting a bit off topic, but since this was sent to the list, I'll respond. Perhaps we should take this offlist if we continue? My response: You misunderstood my question. My question had nothing to do with "ADHD". I was asking to hear from folks who had success in dealing with undisciplined children, but not because I didn't have success myself. I made it clear that there was nothing I could do to discipline the kids in my class because it was not my school and I was only covering a class. Without Sahbumnim's permission, I wouldn't dream of "pulling rank" on children or any other student. I'm also not their usual teacher. My own interest was in hearing what others do in their classes to handle these children. > But to go from your insightful observations to the statement that ADHD is > mythical is an extreme conclusion that flies in the face of OVERWHELMING > scientific evidence. I've also read OVERWHELMING scientific evidence that shows it's a hoax perpetuated by the drug industry. I'm sure you're aware of how many millions/billions are spent each year by consumers on Ritalin simply because the parents don't want to take the time to work with these children on focusing techniques such as meditation and concentration? Who benefits? The drug companies do. The psychiatrists who own stock in Ritalin do. On the other hand, I've had *nearly* 100% success with meditation and concentration in my own counseling sessions. > There are a large number of scientific studies now using brain MRI that show > that certain parts of the brain, interesting it is areas of the brain that > have to do with the control of movement and it appears, the regulation of > attention, are significantly smaller in kids with ADHD compared to matched > controls. Functional brain MRI Studies, this is a kind of MRI that can measure > the amount of activity in certain brain areas, show decreased activity in > those areas of the brain that regulate attention and impulse control, such as > the frontal lobes. These clear and concrete differences in the structure and > function of the brain in persons with ADHD are no myth, they are real. Like depression, a lack of development in certain areas of life *can* affect the brain. For example, I'm sure you're aware that depression's cause is unknown -- it's either nature or nurture. All we know is that being depressed causes chemical changes in the brain, and chemical changes in the brain cause depression. No one knows what comes first. A child who is allowed to spend her developmental years not learning focus and concentration perhaps ends up with the lack of brain development you see on MRI's. Have you done any studies on where (the location) "ADHD" is found? You won't see it much, if at all, in Asian countries. You won't find depression, either, to the degree you see in this country. That points to culture, to me. > Scientific evidence for the genetic transmission of ADHD is also mounting. > So, Im sure that meditation and help with focusing as you describe can be > very useful, and I think martial arts training as a whole is useful for ADHD > kids, and Im sure our culture affects kids' ability to focus. But I would be > careful about taking extreme positions like ADHD is mythical, which is simply > not true and is a disservice to children with this disorder and their > families. I'm sorry, but I'll hold my position given the evidence and the success I've had with simple retraining exercises. Even if it *were* genetic, the fact that it can be helped with retraining tells me the Ritalin should be discarded as an alternative. Yes, martial arts IS good for them. Especially if they are trained to focus instead of given excuses like "ADHD". I honestly mean no disrespect by this, but you must understand that it's hard to take the word of someone who makes a living off of prescribing Ritalin. I've even seen my own pharmacist, who knows more about drugs than any doctor, shake his head when the woman in front of me came in to fill a Ritalin prescription. After she left, he said, "It's amazing what people will buy into these days." > For those who want to read more about ADHD, a very good book is, ADH > D and the Nature of Self Control, by Russel Barkely, Ph.D. For those who want > something less technical than this book, Russell Barkely has written a number > of books accessible to the lay person. For those who want to hear the other side as well (it's good to remain objective when you're learning about something new), be sure to check out the many arguments *against* "ADHD", as well. Get an objective view from a consumer or someone else not related to the medical/drug indu$try. If I find some good websites on the subject, I'll post them here. It's good for teachers to be aware of *all* the angles when dealing with such a controversial issue. Pilseung, Morgan ------------------------------ From: Morgan Kochel Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 10:47:53 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Charles' School! > < successful martial arts school in this country? If the focus was more on > discipline, spirituality, and training rather than exercise and playtime (let > them go to an aerobics class for that), who in this country would be willing > to enroll in a school like this?>> Charles wrote: > Dear Morgan, > > You and I will be finding out together. Beginning in mid November > (anniversary of MDK) I will try to operate such a school. Teaching > semi-private lessons to primarily age 12+, age 8-11 must train with a 16+ > adult family member, and someone with a lot of money may convince me to > teach a private lesson to their under 8 year old. IMHO this is the best way > for me to teach traditional T'ang Soo Do. I have opened clubs with 4 to 7 > members and 1.5 hour classes and taught 45 minute pee-wee classes in a > commercial school of 120+. After I left that school my former business > partner took that school to 300+ with a second building, cardio-karate, > simultaneous kids classes, pee-wee classes, etc. I would say we each had a > different focus. I would like to teach traditional martial arts, and only > to those who are truly interested. My former partner is probably netting 6 > figures and planing a European second honeymoon. What do you want out of > life, and what are your values? I'm not saying either approach is right or > wrong, just a different focus. For details on my format, check out my > web-site (yes a shameless plug) or email me directly. WONDERFUL!! Please keep me advised on how it goes! And I'll definitely be checking out that website. I know what you mean about your partner probably getting rich. I have a sister who's a millionaire (worker's comp case), and all she does is talk about what she's acquired since the last time she wrote to me (a new pool, a fountain, new furniture, a trip to Europe, etc.). I would NEVER ask for money from her because I'd never hear the end of "how much she's done for me." The point is, I see what money can do for one's spiritual connection, and it doesn't look good. Checking out your website now.... Pilseung!! Morgan ------------------------------ From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 10:53:26 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Korean Masters >>But that is still not an excuse as I have met many wonderful and trained under >>many different Korean Masters who never saw a need to do that. We all have >>choices ... and so do they. When I was in Korea, Kwanjangnim once told me (through Yi Saeng translating) that the training at the school used to be a lot different, and you would think he was very mean. But times change, and he did not believe in a lot of that anymore. Alain ------------------------------ From: Morgan Kochel Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 11:09:20 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Children of the 90's Illona wrote: > My school is filled with such children ... and I find it amazing all the > things that they are allowed to make decisions in ! > > Can you name some of them? HA! Yes -- whether or not to come to class, whether or not to participate once they're in class, letting them wear FILTHY uniforms instead of washing them once in a while, allowing them to run around screaming and yelling before a class, ..... Pilseung, Morgan ------------------------------ From: JSaportajr@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 11:14:45 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re:ADHD In a message dated 4/20/00 9:58:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << You hit the nail on the head...I will not teach a child that is on drugs for adhd. >> I applaud your efforts in helping kids with ADHD. Im sure what you do with them really helps, the techniques you described sound great. But the statement above, that you would refuse to treat children on medication is, in my opinion, arrogant. Are you trained to make that decision? Are you trained to know whether a kid does or does not need medication? Have you read the scientific literature on ADHD? With all due respect sir, have you read one scientific paper on ADHD? How do you come by such an extreme position? What do you base it on? You may be a talented martial arts teacher and a wise person, but you may not be qualified to make a final judgment on such complex issues such as whether ADHD exists or whether a child does or does not need medication. In fact, refusing to treat a kid because he is taking medication is probably illegal. I know that if I had a kid on medication for ADHD and a martial arts school refused to take him because of that, Id have him in court. I apologize if my tone is disrespectful, but this is something I fell strongly about, and I am concerned and alarmed at the idea of martial arts teachers without professional training refusing to treat a kid because they dont think the kid should be on medication. I believe that you could share your concerns with the parents about nmedication and tell them about your experience and respect what they decide. Martial arts teachers can contribute a tremendous amount to helping kids with ADHD if they work with professionals who are knowledgeable and skilled about these problems. But martial arts teachers need to be humble and not assume to take over from or assume to know more than these professionals. I have a lot of training in this area and I don't claim to know everything there is to know about this disorder. I still have a lot of questions and I want to keep an open mind in order to learn. Unfortunately, you seem to have made up your mind somewhat dogmatically about a complex issue. I know you are a police officer and there is a lot about police work that I may have feelings about but I withhold judgment from because I do not have the training and experience of a police officer. There are a lot of kids in our culture that misbehave and are unfocused. I think that parents in our culture have trouble setting limits and asserting their authority with kids. But these kids, the ones you help, may not actually be suffering from real ADHD, which is a real disorder. I would hope that if you have a kid in your dojang on meds for ADHD you accept him and help him like you help the other kids you teach, but that you work with and not against and not claim to now more than those who are treating him or her. And I hope that these professionals are humble enough to learn from you and your observations. If as the result of your help the kid is able to get off meds then that's great. But not all kids can do this and they should not be judged or excluded if they truly need medicine. I think that I have reacted to this and the post about exclusive schools because I react to exclusion in general. Martial arts should be about humility, not closing our minds and claiming to know -- but keeping an open mind and willingness to learn (remember the story about the monk and the student-where the monk fills the students tea cup and keeps pouring tea into the overflowing cup), and above all, inclusion as opposed to exclusion. Jose' ------------------------------ From: CA&B Skjold Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 09:52:43 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Training Advice Please. Hi All, I am a Yellow Belt (7th Gup) WTF TKD. At our dojang we train two times a week and while there I try my best and hardest while trying to be accurate, controlled and forceful. The problem I have is that we train a lot 'face/face' with other persons of our same rank and the person I am paired with stands WAY to far away, produces no targets and seems to be afraid of getting hit by me. I feel I have very good control. I have come in actual contact only twice, and not with her, in the eight months I have been a student. How do I help this person over come their fear and such so my training doesn't suffer. We have a very small class so pairing up with someone else is not an option. Thank you, in advance, for your help. Anne cabs@corpcomm.net ------------------------------ From: CA&B Skjold Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 10:13:39 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: on ADHD As a parent I am quite familiar with this disease, it is real. One of my best friends has a child with a serious case. She has chosen to work with the child instead of putting on some of the drugs available. My son has also been tested for this disease , mainly because he talked to much during school and played with his pencils and stuff. That was in KINDERGARTEN, he was being a normal active child. When he was rested a year later all of a sudden he showed NO symptoms of this disorder. Gee, I wonder if being told his limits helped or maybe just growing a year older. I think our society today wants a bunch of robots instead of children that are normal because our lives are too busy for all their normalness! How sad. That is why ADHD is the most over diagnosed disease in the country. Just my opinion. ------------------------------ From: Robert Martin Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 10:12:41 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Korean Masters I don't know if any of you have ever met Gen. Choi Hong Hi. I can't imagine him ever striking a student (except in sparring!) or calling a student names. How does this negative kind of activity teach respect for ones self or for other people? It teaches discipline through fear but not much self discipline. I have also met many other masters and grand masters that would consider this king of behavior. Unfortunately we also have some here that act this way or allow senior students to. Of course if we set a student home with bloodied underwear we would have our underwear sued off of us! Regards Robert Martin From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 03:16:22 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Korean Masters In a message dated 4/18/00 8:22:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << The were frequently beaten, and one Grand Master told be he would at times come home with his underwear bloodied. His parents would never have even considered saying anything to the teacher, as it was judged as likely appropriate to discipline their child and the teacher was not questioned. >> Yes, my instructor had many tales that he told of his upbringing in TKD in Korea ... and some were not pretty. And it was the reason why he thought nothing of calling us stupid over and over again and hitting us with a shinai. He was doing what he was taught when he came up in the ranks. But that is still not an excuse as I have met many wonderful and trained under many different Korean Masters who never saw a need to do that. We all have choices ... and so do they. Illona ------------------------------ From: HwarangTSD@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 12:36:19 EDT Subject: the_dojang: re: refusal to teach adhd kids on drugs While I believe that ADD/ADHD phenomena exists, especially since I was diagnosed ADD when I was a child, I believe that martial arts training can be of great assistance to these kids. I had an ADD child who was maxed out on the prescription drugs for this condition. After training with me for a period of time, This childs dosage was able to be cut. Even if you do not believe that ADD/ADHD exists, why would you punish a child for taking a medication prescribed by a doctor? Would you also refuse to teach someone on painkillers (i.e. aspirin or advil, etc?) These are drugs and are not necessarily prescribed by a physician. If this phenomena does not exist, it would seem to me that there would be an indication of something else going awry in this childs life. I am not sure of everone else's training but one of instructors told me once, that in training in martial arts one learns to be strong. This is so that one can learn to be gentle. Further, and this is my opinion, you may want to reconsider your decision not to teach children who are on meds for add/adhd. This would fall under discrimination under the Medical Disabilities Act (forgive me but I'm drawing a blank for the actual name of this statute). Incidentally, this code was used by a child who was banned from the practice of martial arts in a local school here for his HIV status. It was ruled that he didn't fall under this statute because his condition was hazardous to others. The court also made note that this was intended to protect citizens from discrimination from activities due to a medical condition that would not be harmful to others. You are getting VERY close to breaking this code and allowing yourself to be sued. Be very very careful. Master Frank Clay ------------------------------ From: Donnla Nic Gearailt Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 17:24:00 +0100 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #259 > >not know if things have changed in Korean culture, but several Korean masters > >who are in their mid fifties and up have told me about their experience as >children studying martial arts in Korea, and it was commonly what we would >call abusive, though they did not see it that way. The were frequently >beaten, and one Grand Master told be he would at times come home with his >underwear bloodied. His parents would never have even considered saying >anything to the teacher, as it was judged as likely appropriate to discipline > >their child and the teacher was not questioned. Cultural differences do not make abusing children right, IMHO (call procedure open(can of worms)). It used to be common practice in Irish state primary schools until the 80s to beat the living daylights out of kids for any minor transgression. The result, thousands of mentally messed-up adults today. Just because something is prevalent doesn't mean it doesn't affect children. If you are sending a kid to martial arts lessons to teach them indomitable spirit, self-reliance, improved confidence and respectfulness, an abusive learning environment is going to counter any such benefit, and maybe give the kids extra problems that will affect them alter on in life. Donnla. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Donnla Nic Gearailt Computer Laboratory, New Museums Site, Graduate Student Pembroke St., Cambridge CB2 3QG, U.K. tel: +44-1223-334619 http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~dbn20/ "An eyelash! How could you be so careless!" - Jude Law, Gattaca ------------------------------ From: "J. R. West" Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 12:33:00 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: ADD, ADHD, ADLD In my opinion, ADD etc. are not "phantom" diseases, they are very real. I have a 23 yr. old son that was diagnosed at age 11, and subsequently perscribed dexadrine as an "aid" in combating this most frustrating of diseases (not an illness). Almost immediately he became more responsive, better able to function on his own as far as school was concerned, and came to us in tears to thank us for helping him be more accepted in his circle of peers, and too not be such a "bad person". He no longer fought other kids on a daily basis due to the fact that he was a little "different", and by the end of high school he was an honor student as well as VP of the student body. Only a person who has never tried to raise a child with ADD would classify it as a "phantom", even though I agree that it is tremendously over-diagnosed. To say that one will not teach a person on drugs for treatment of ADD is similar to saying that you will not teach a type-1 diabetic since they too are on "drugs"(insulin). A child that truly suffers from this disease is no more able to control their behavior than a child could control the color of their eyes, this being said, ADD children DO NOT HAVE A BEHAVIORAL problem any more than someone with Turretts Syndrome suffers from a behavioral problem. These kids (and sometimes adults) face hardships the rest of us can't even imagine and the last thing that they need is someone else telling tham that they are "bad", that ADD doesn't exist, or that they should be held to the same standards as the rest of your class. These kids respond ONLY to positive reinforcement, and you MUST attempt to find them doing something right and complement them on a daily basis. Good luck from someone who has been there...J. R. West ------------------------------ From: JSJozokos@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 13:49:55 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: ADHD This response is specifically for Mark G, who refuses to teach kids on any drugs. Even if the drugs are a prescription for behavior. Would you teach a diabetic child? Insulin is a drug. I have also been to a school where there was more than one child on drugs. One child was on Pain medication because she was dieing of cancer but did not want to quit class. She said it was the only thing that got her mind of of cancer. Would you refuse to teach her? She was on pain medication that make advil look like a placebo. The point I am trying to point out is this, Don't make concrete generalizations if you have not thought about the different possabilities. If you are not that child's doctor or parent, it is not your decision to make. Be open minded. Jonathan Jozokos 1st Dan TKD ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 10:53:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: is vs. is not Folks, lets please keep the discussion on how to best instruct those with attention problems, not whether is is a real disease or not. The latter is a topic for a different forum. Thanks for understanding. Now where was I... Ray Terry ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #265 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.