From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #266 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thur, 20 April 2000 Vol 07 : Num 266 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: Morgan's School the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #265 the_dojang: Re: ADD the_dojang: Re: jose the_dojang: ADHD, ADD, ABC the_dojang: ADHD and Speed the_dojang: Drugs the_dojang: Still on Drugs the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #263 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #265 the_dojang: Re: different culture, different rules? the_dojang: Re: Training Advice Please. [none] ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 800+ members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jsegovia@mindspring.com Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 15:41:13 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Morgan's School I guess you're right that I engaged in a bit of hyperbole, but perhaps what has concerned some folks on the digest is that while you're describing the perfect school for you, some of us may have gotten the impression you were criticizing anyone who runs a school in a different way. For example, you can understand the emotional aspect of discussing money as a motivation in teaching. In the end, what's going to allow you to put your heart and soul into something, sacrifice for it and to really excel at it, is if it's what you really want to be doing, so I hope you're able to accomplish that. Jesse ------------------------------ From: JSaportajr@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 15:33:47 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #265 In a message dated 4/20/00 1:58:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: I do not think it would be fruitful to further this discussion as it is becoming more removed from martial arts. Let me just say it is complex and the issues are not so easily decided. Your post contained some good points but also many inaccuracies of fact. I would like to say, though that I resent you assuming that my opinions, based on many years of experience, training and following the scientific literature are financially motivated. You do not know me. I do not own any stock in any drug companies. I practice mainly psychotherapy yet prescribe medications when necessary. I prescribe Ritalin rarely but I have occasionally when it was needed and it really helped them in their lives. I have hardly gotten rich on it. Psychiatrists make either the least or second least of all medical specialties. If I wanted to be rich I would have become a cardiovascular surgeon. In today's insurance climate no one is getting rich prescribing medication like this. I spend hours each week for free arguing with insurance companies to get patients even minimal care. I see many people on a sliding fee and many pay less than what physical trainers make an hour. I understand meditation, having practiced traditional martial arts, Japanese and Korean styles for over twenty years and also having studied transcendental meditation for many years - I was a full time student for three years at Maharishi International University and practiced this system for over ten years which included much advanced training, and having studied and practiced other meditation systems. Its an easy way out of a complex issue and a cheap shot to say, "Oh he's just saying that because he's a money grubbing doctor." Your cup runeth over. Jose' ------------------------------ From: JSaportajr@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 16:12:07 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: ADD In a message dated 4/20/00 1:58:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << I've had *nearly* 100% success with meditation and concentration in my own counseling sessions. >> I do not have nearly 100% success in treating any problem. I have never met anyone in my years of experience with that kind of success rate treating anything. That includes doctors, psychologists, my good friends who are chiropractors and an accupuncturist/herbalist, my psychologist friend who uses mainly meditation in his practice, none of them claim nearly 100% success in helping any problem. Martial Arts are a GREAT resource for kids with a large variety of behavioral problems. But don't expect nearly 100% success rate. ------------------------------ From: Oregfightingarts@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 16:43:31 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: jose I should have mentioned that I will not train anyone that is on any type of drug that alters any contious or emotional state, whether it is prescribed or an illegal substance. I feel it is a liability issue and feel that I to allow this might endanger the physical well being of another student. I have experienced first hand the trauma of a person 'missing' the dose of whatever wonderdrug the person has been prescribed, and missing the 'fix' of illegal substances...both experiences almost got me killed. If someone is on a drug for emotional stability, fails to take it, then comes to class where (at least in my training) they are subjected to emotional and adrenaline triggering situational training (scenario's) they may lose control and injure themselves or others. This is too much liability for me to try to control, and prohibiting it is a way for me to CYA. You are correct in that some people may absolutely need to be on some type of med to function properly...but the bo! ttom line for me is the transferring of potentially lethal skills to a person that may become unstable. That would be negligence, but I will certainly continue learning about advances in medical treatment of these problems, and may change my policies at some point in the future. sincerely, mark gajdostik ------------------------------ From: Morgan Kochel Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 17:10:23 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: ADHD, ADD, ABC Len wrote: > You MUST NOT treat all the children the same. ADD, or kids lacking focus if > you want to put a different handle on it, is best handled by YOU focusing on > the kid to ensure that THEY understand the activity you expect them to carry > out. Front kick, touch down, side kick, punch is about as much as my > daughter can retain in short term memory. Yelling at her, or making her do > pushups because she did not follow your general instructions is destructive > to her, and potentially disruptive to the class. I don't think anyone here advocated yelling at anyone. One need not yell to get one's ponit across. > Put into perspective ADD is not a disease, but a trait. Traits can be worked > around, and kids treated right WILL improve. Kids treated wrong will become > the problem teenagers and adults of tomorrow. Exactly. > I would be interested to know how Gary would react to a kid who came to class > having lost an arm. Treating them ALL the same would exclude the kid from > punching exercises requiring two hands. Or would he find a way to work > around that. Yes, it can be overcome, as can ADD, with care and attention. This is an unfair (and incorrect) analogy. There is a huge difference between someone who has an irreversable handicap and a treatable personality defect. > We do not drug our kid -- we love her, mentally nourish her, and lead her to > excel for we believe that one day she will excel on her own -- as does her > fifth dan instructor, by the way. Wonderful! Congratulations to you, and thank you for not supporting the use of speed for kids! Pilseung! Morgan ------------------------------ From: Morgan Kochel Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 17:31:29 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: ADHD and Speed > You hit the nail on the head...I will not teach a child that is on drugs for > adhd. >> Jose wrote: > I applaud your efforts in helping kids with ADHD. Im sure what you do with > them really helps, the techniques you described sound great. But the > statement above, that you would refuse to treat children on medication is, in > my opinion, arrogant. Whoa, that's a bit out-of-bounds. "Arrogant"? Ritalin acts like an amphetamine in the body. Why should any instructor have to deal with a child on speed? Particularly when they have the evidence to prove it's unnecessary (video tapes)? > Are you trained to make that decision? Are you trained to know whether a kid > does or does not need medication? Have you read the scientific literature on > ADHD? With all due respect sir, have you read one scientific paper on ADHD? > How do you come by such an extreme position? What do you base it on? You may > be a talented martial arts teacher and a wise person, but you may not be > qualified to make a final judgment on such complex issues such as whether ADHD > exists or whether a child does or does not need medication. Oh, come on. No one needs to read a "paper" to know that drugs are *not always* necessarily the best thing for a person, and certainly aren't good when they are quickly mood-altering -- particularly a drug that can be bought on the street as a recreational high!! And there are *proven* alternatives! What about *your* education in fast drug half-lifes and their addictive properties? I'm surprised you're not more objective about this. > In fact, refusing to treat a kid because he is taking medication > is probably illegal. I know that if I had a kid on medication for ADHD and a > martial arts school refused to take him because of that, Id have him in > court. And you'd have several people backing up the other party, as well, I'm sure. Courts don't normally favor doctors who push drugs (I have legal experience). Doctors don't always win in court, sir. There are also plenty of schools out there who might not give a damn about the drugs and teach the kid anyway. Why attack someone for having a different opinion than you do? > I apologize if my tone is disrespectful, but this is something I fell > strongly about, and I am concerned and alarmed at the idea of martial arts > teachers without professional training refusing to treat a kid because they > dont think the kid should be on medication. I believe that you could share > your concerns with the parents about nmedication and tell them about your > experience and respect what they decide. Of course! That doesn't mean he has to teach them if they decide to stick with the speed. Again, *particularly* when there's a proven alternative. > Martial arts teachers can contribute a tremendous amount to helping kids > with ADHD if they work with professionals who are knowledgeable and skilled > about these problems. But martial arts teachers need to be humble and not > assume to take over from or assume to know more than these professionals. Oh, puh-LEEEEZE!!! How many times have we heard this from doctors?? Doctors are NOT omniscient. And where would you be financially as a psychiatrist if the public stopped taking drugs for every little psychological discomfort? You need to give some credit to the general public for their ability to find their own facts and make their own informed decisions. What kind of a degree do you need to know that narcotics are bad for you? That smoking causes cancer? That drinking and driving can seriously injure someone? There were several doctors and psychiatrists a few years ago who told me I had to be on antidepressants. Everything they gave me made me feel even worse. Only one got rid of the depression. I felt "normal" again, but always haunted about what was originally wrong with me. I felt like a coward. I finally stopped taking the drug, got very depressed, and started working on the *reasons* I was depressed. It was tough -- VERY tough -- but I grew a lot as a person, and become much stronger for it. I'm no longer depressed. I also learned that Eastern methods of self-insight, meditation, yoga, acupuncture, etc., are far superior to the Western "take a pill and don't deal with it" approach. > I have a lot of training in this area and I don't claim to know everything > there is to know about this disorder. I still have a lot of questions and I > want to keep an open mind in order to learn. Unfortunately, you seem to have > made up your mind somewhat dogmatically about a complex issue. And you haven't? You haven't shown any interest in how other people have been able to combat these "disorders" *without* drugs. Drugs are not the only answer. I wish *you* could open your mind to that. > I know you are a police officer and there is a lot about police work that I > may have feelings about but I withhold judgment from because I do not have the > training and experience of a police officer. There are a lot of kids in our > culture that misbehave and are unfocused. I think that parents in our culture > have trouble setting limits and asserting their authority with kids. But these > kids, the ones you help, may not actually be suffering from real ADHD, which > is a real disorder. I would hope that if you have a kid in your dojang on meds > for ADHD you accept him and help him like you help the other kids you teach, > but that you work with and not against and not claim to now more than those > who are treating him or her. He obviously has the tapes to prove he knows more than some people do. > And I hope that these professionals are humble enough to learn from you and > your observations. Me, too! (hint, hint) ;-) > If as the result of your help the kid is able to get off meds then that's > great. But not all kids can do this and they should not be judged or excluded > if they truly need medicine. I think that I have reacted to this and the post > about exclusive schools because I react to exclusion in general. Martial arts > should be about humility, not closing our minds and claiming to know -- but > keeping an open mind and willingness to learn (remember the story about the > monk and the student-where the monk fills the students tea cup and keeps > pouring tea into the overflowing cup), and above all, inclusion as opposed to > exclusion. There is such a thing as discipline. Sometimes that includes not allowing someone to participate unless they're willing to learn something new. If the teacher has a proven record of being able to help children without drugs, that should say it all. Peace, Morgan ------------------------------ From: Morgan Kochel Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 17:38:48 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Drugs > Even if you do not believe that ADD/ADHD exists, why would you punish a child > for taking a medication prescribed by a doctor? Can someone please quote where someone said a child on medication should be "punished"???? > Would you also refuse to teach someone on painkillers (i.e. aspirin or advil, > etc?) These drugs are not mood-altering, so they don't affect a person's behavior. They're also not addictive. > Further, and this is my opinion, you may want to reconsider your decision not > to teach children who are on meds for add/adhd. This would fall under > discrimination under the Medical Disabilities Act (forgive me but I'm drawing > a blank for the actual name of this statute). Incidentally, this code was > used by a child who was banned from the practice of martial arts in a local > school here for his HIV status. It was ruled that he didn't fall under this > statute because his condition was hazardous to others. The court also made > note that this was intended to protect citizens from discrimination from > activities due to a medical condition that would not be harmful to others. > You are getting VERY close to breaking this code and allowing yourself to be > sued. Be very very careful. Personally, I don't know whether this is a law or not. It would be interesting if we could find out for sure. I'm sure there is a law that supports a teacher's decision not to teach students on cocaine, heroin, or other mood-altering substance. It wouldn't be a big leap to add Ritalin to that list. Good point and worth looking into! Peace, Morgan ------------------------------ From: Morgan Kochel Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 17:51:52 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Still on Drugs > This response is specifically for Mark G, who refuses to teach kids on any > drugs. Even if the drugs are a prescription for behavior. Would you teach a > diabetic child? Insulin is a drug. I have also been to a school where there > was more than one child on drugs. One child was on Pain medication because she > was dieing of cancer but did not want to quit class. She said it was the only > thing that got her mind of of cancer. Would you refuse to teach her? She was > on pain medication that make advil look like a placebo. Oh, come on, folks. THINK! Read the previous posts! It's not that Ritalin is a drug -- it's that it's a MOOD-ALTERING ADDICTIVE DRUG. It alters behavior dramatically, and not in a healthy way. There is a difference! Insulin is not such a drug. I'm sure an exception could be made for a dying patient, for cryin' out loud. AND there is evidence to suggest that learning something new on a mood-altering drug will be more accessible to one's memory if they are high on that same drug. In other words, if you study for a test while high on marijuana, you can best remember the answers if you take the test while high on marijuana. Same with caffeine. Something to consider. > The point I am trying to point out is this, Don't make concrete > generalizations if you have not thought about the different possabilities. If > you are not that child's doctor or parent, it is not your decision to make. > Be open minded. It is the teacher's decision on who to accept in class. Period. A simple sign that reads, "We have the right to refuse service to anyone" will cover any business person in this regard. Peace, Morgan ------------------------------ From: ICyrus8528@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 19:51:33 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #263 You are correct, teaching is a thankless job. However, if really pay attention to who walks into your school regardless of age, you can figure out who is likely to hang around for a while. In the end they all leave. I have over 6000 students in the past 20 years and promoted over 200 of them to various levels of Black Belt. Only 3 of them are left. It is lonely being a martail art teacher. You cannot afford to become too close to your students because eventually they will hurt your feelings. You have to maintain a discrete emotional distance of get hurt. I just came back from a trip to Korea and after spending some time with some of the most senior martial art teachers there I came away with the impression they are plagued by the same issues. Haven't you guys ever wonder most of the masters we come into contact with here in the U.S. never acknowledge their teacher. It's as if they fell out of the sky as practitioners and teachers Ian A. Cyrus, Headmaster Int'l ChoSonDo Fed. ------------------------------ From: TKDSCRIBE@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 20:06:38 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #265 In a message dated 4/20/00 12:23:53 PM Mountain Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << areas of the brain that > have to do with the control of movement and it appears, the regulation of > attention, are significantly smaller in kids with ADHD compared to matched > controls. >> Yeah, but are the brain structures smaller because they were not stimulated adequately and thus never encouraged develop as much as in a more "normal" person? Or, is it purely a bad roll of the genetic dice. Smart money would probably say that BOTH are contributing factors in the syndrome. ------------------------------ From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 21:11:00 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: different culture, different rules? In a message dated 4/20/00 10:57:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Cultural differences do not make abusing children right >> well stated, donnla. exactly. melinda ChunjiDo -pe rsonal homepage http://hometown.aol.com/chunjido/homehtmlindex.html www.Chajonshim.com Martial Arts Supply now featuring a shopping cart for your convenience! :) Paidforsurf.com - - Main - get paid 75cents/hr to surf the net...i do! Looking for enlightenment is like looking for a flashlight, when all you need the flashlight for is to find the flashlight. ------------------------------ From: foxdragon@cuttingedge.net Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 19:07:05 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Training Advice Please. Hello Anne and welcome. This seems to be a thing with all newcomers. I try to make light of it by indicating with my hands to come in closer and I make light of the subject by telling them I will not bite...much. I also discover they do not like punching directly at the target which is for one-steps nose height. They like to punch off to the side. My instructor got strict with this once. Stopped the procedure and explained. "This helps no-one to punch away from the face. The purpose of one-steps is to decrease our reaction time so we use a technique or a number of techniques to react to a single blow concentrating on a target no larger than a dime." Keep trying Anne. Eventionally, she will move in closer. Donna - -- Me and my shadow ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 18:53:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [none] ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #266 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.