From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #276 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Mon, 24 April 2000 Vol 07 : Num 276 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: Kuk Sool in Korea the_dojang: hapkido origins the_dojang: inheriting an art the_dojang: Teaching the "OLD" way the_dojang: ITF/WTF terminology Re: the_dojang: Teaching the "OLD" way the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #275 [none] ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 800 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jsegovia@mindspring.com Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 11:07:49 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Kuk Sool in Korea the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com wrote: > Thus, the Kuk Sool Hapkido schools you have seen in > Korea probably use the words "Kuk Sool" to imply that Hapkido is Korea's > national martial art. In Korea, there is the concept of the 'kwan,' or the mostly-independent unit of the larger martial arts organization. The leader of the kwan, the kwanjang (kwanjangnim is the polite or honorfic version of the same word), is responsible for his curriculum, promotions, and making sure everything in his kwan is in order. You are a member of the larger organization, but you answer to your kwanjang, and he is responsible for you. The kwan I currently belong to is Hapkido Mooye Kwan, led by Master Harold Whalen, under the KHA. In Korea, I was under Hapkido SaeShim Kwan, at that time under Saemaul Undong (now KHF). It is my understanding that KukSool originally began as a Hapkido kwan, or Hapkido KukSool Kwan, before GM Suh InHyuk broke from Hapkido to establish KukSool as a separate martial art, at least outside of Korea. Within Korea, it appears KukSool is still affiliated with Hapkido; I don't know if it's still known as a kwan. I cannot speak for your dojang, but it appears other Hapkido KukSool schools are in fact related to KukSoolWon; they wear the black uniforms and teach the KukSool program including their forms, weapons, etc. Jesse ------------------------------ From: Robert Martin Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 09:44:22 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: hapkido origins It's interesting, for me, to note that the origins of hapkido are as greatly debated as the origin of taekwon-do (i.e.: ITF/WTF debates). Isn't it amazing that we have no clear picture of events that happened 40 or 50 years ago, and with people that took part in those events still living? Yet, we can make definitive statements about events of several hundred or even thousands of years ago. Regards Robert Martin the older I get, the more I learn, the more I learn, the less I know -- amazing ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 10:01:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: inheriting an art >> Since I inherited the art eight years ago I have made some changes >> in its technical content. > > How does one inherit an art? Typically by being the foremost student of that art and/or by being a blood relative of the founder. e.g. Vincent Cabales has inherited Cabales Serrada Escrima, the art of his father Angel Cabales. Jason Inay will inherit The Inayan System of Eskrima when his father, Mike Inay, passes on. Antonio Diego and Rey Galang have inherited parts of Tatang Ilustrisimo's Kali Ilustrisimo. Mas Oyama's Kyokushinkai Karate was inherited by, umm, I forget his name. Takeda Tokimune (1916-1993) inherited his father's, Takeda Sokaku, art of Daito Ryu Aiki-Jujutsu. To name a few... :) Ray Terry ------------------------------ From: "tink73" Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 12:04:48 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Teaching the "OLD" way The "OLD" way as many of us Americans like to refer to it is the way that is/was common to Korea as well as the rest of the Asian world. I would like to remind you that Korea was ruled by the Japanese or 40 years during which time the suffered as slaves and were tortured into submission in many cases as was typical of Japanese take over during that time. General Choi was imprisoned during this time. After the liberation by the Americans, the Koreans, specifically General Choi, vowed never to allow their country to be dominated again. The military training is/was very rigorous and this flowed into the martial arts since it was primarily taught to the military personnel. My first instructor told me of their training and how it was common that 2 or 3 persons a week would die during training. Whether or not this is a fact I have no idea, but the point was that they were willing/required/forced to endure. It was something they new they had to do. That's just the way it was. This training, regardless of what we, the kinder more gentler Americans, may think or feel, is/was their way of life and from it came the ROK (Royal Order of Korea) Armed Forces, one of the most formidable units in the world as well as some of the best Masters and Grand Masters to which our lineage traces. Many of us trained under these "OLD" style masters and Grand Masters. The training was toned down for us Westerners, but the philosophy was still: "Be here and endure because you want to be and you want to learn, or quit." I have found that in most of us who have trained under these "OLD" style Masters and Grand Masters that the discipline and tradition of the art is very solid and firm. We have become very flexible, at the same time, depending on the situations, students, and fellow artists that we encounter without giving up this "OLD" training. It appears to me that we gain and receive more respect from our students, fellow martial artists, and instructors of all ranks over those that believe the "OLD" style of teaching is archaic and barbaric. I tend to see less respect and less discipline (both self and in general) in the students that are trained in the more Kinder and Gentler ways. Just my observations which are not all-seeing. IMVHO! Pil Seung The One and Only... Tink ------------------------------ From: Vlado Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 10:18:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: ITF/WTF terminology A few people mentioned there were differences b/n the terminology of the two federations but I saw very few examples; and I think that examples or reference files is what our friend(who posted the question initially) needs. As I have trained in schools affiliated to ITF, GTF and WTF, I have gone through the process of learning new names of almost identical techniques. Regretfully, I don't have a ready-made file pointing out the differences or presenting both versions. Because of that, I'll try to put down some examples, starting from the more general differences and going down to the pragmatic points. One of the fundamental distinctions between the two organizations is in their basic principles of generating force. For the ITF it is the movement up and down - the so-called "sine wave" based on the water movement. For the WTF it is the circular movement left and right, or rather around. This gives rise to a couple of distinctions in the formal technique at least. One such distinction is in the preparations. You may well skip this paragraph - it's very clumsy.. (I'm quite unsure about the English term you are using - what I mean by a preparation is the preparatory phase from where passes the certain technique, something like a preliminary stage between the preceding moment when you are at rest and the last stage of the technique in question. I was taught by breaking down the techniques into phases(usl 2-3) and then smoothing it out in full). For instance the ITF preparation of a right low block(in-to-out)(I'll get to the actual names soon) is the right wrist over the left wrist(touching) and the hands slightly bent and turned to an angle of 45 degrees to the left; then the hands are outstretched further on, the pelvis(consequently the body) is lifted till legs are almost straight, and then the block is executed during the motion downwards. In the WTF, the preparation is as follows: left hand is almost straight and some one span forward; the right hand is bent in the elbow, the fist is to the left shoulder and the right arm is parallel to the left upper hand; the torso is twisted in the waist to the left and the back leg is propped only on the ahp kumchi. When the block is executed, the body twists to the right, the leg goes down to the stance and the hand goes to its final position gathering the usual forces such as the reaction force, the support force, etc. Oops - what a lengthy and clumsy example and yet I skipped probably half of the elements. This comes to prove how complex physical movement is - that's why it takes years and years to achieve something in the MAs.. So preparatory stages are different. Now, here is some more terminology. I apologize in advance for the inaccuracies in the transcription but this is due to my sources - I'm actually back transcribing from the Bulgarian transcription and my knowledge on Korean is still very limited. First of all, ITF doesn't use she short stance which is called in WTF ahp seogi. The next stance that is different is charyot seogi: in ITF it is performed with the hands bent at approximately 45 degrees in the three directions, fists clenched, while in WTF the arms are kept by the body with the palms open. Next, the aneun seogi is called chuchum seogi in WTF(though some think that chuchum seogi is with the feet turned a bit to the outside). I'll proceed with the ITF term first, followed by the its WTF counterpart. Geuneun seogi is ahp kubi; nyuncha seogi is dwit kubi; dwitbal seogi is bum seogi; kiocha seogi is koa seogi. Most of the stances share the same name, so there's no need mentioning them. I'm surely missing a lot of things, for instance the traditional naming of the stances and techniques, but I'm already getting on your nerves :-).. The next thing that springs to mind is the naming of the body levels: in the ITF they are nadseunde - kaunde - nopunde; in WTF they are ahre - momtong - olgul. The contact surfaces are named very similarly, so I guess this eases things a bit. The use of distinction paro-pande distinction is just the other way round. Here is an example to illustrate some of the aforesaid features: geuneun seogi kaunde pande chirugi will be ahp kubi momtong paro chirugi. The way or turning round is also different but with the same command: tiro-tora. Lastly, some more techniques. Nadseunde baro maki - ahre maki; chugio palmok maki - olgul maki; aneuro palmok maki - momtong ahn maki; sonkal debi maki - sonnal maki; pande-dolyochagi - tioligi. Yes, there is the larger description in ITF including the contact surface. I guess I babbled long enough, so that's all. I'd like to apologize to the more knowledgeable and experienced members of the list for the lengthy examples and the inaccuracies. I'm struggling a little with transferring the stuff into English. Please, do not allow yourselves be irritated and I'm expecting some corrections - I think these would be extremely valuable to me. One last note: I'm not mentioning the English version of the techniques, because actually I don't know many of them(only the basic kicks, blocks and stances). For those of you who have never dealt with the terms in Korean, you'd better check ....... an have a look at Korean transcription. Last but not least - most of the terminology I presented was taken from the book "Encyclopaedia of Taekwon-do" by Mihail Gyorgiev - a very fine book and unfortunately one of the very, very few ever to be published around.. Thank you for your patience. I wish you fruitful practice with no injuries. Vlado _______________________________________________________ Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite Visit http://freelane.excite.com/freeisp ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 10:43:35 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: Teaching the "OLD" way > and from it came the ROK (Royal Order of Korea) Armed Forces, one of the I thought ROK was the Republic of Korea. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Vlado Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 10:29:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #275 Dear Piotr and Tink, Just as I thought, there are people better prepared than me. Today I posted an answer to the question of different terminology in ITF vs. WTF Taekwondo because I didn't have a ready-made file.. I'm very much interested in your ways of reviewing the question. Could you send me the files too? I hope don't sound too presumptious.. Thanks in advance. Vlado _______________________________________________________ Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite Visit http://freelane.excite.com/freeisp ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 10:34:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [none] ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #276 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.