From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #285 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Wed, 26 April 2000 Vol 07 : Num 285 In this issue: the_dojang: SF( Special Forces) the_dojang: ROK SF the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #279 the_dojang: ITF / WTF (yet again ;-) the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #283 the_dojang: TKD History -- Questions the_dojang: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #284 the_dojang: USA SF vs: ROK SF the_dojang: Old Ways the_dojang: History of Taekwondo the_dojang: Rangers, Seals, PJ's and ROK soldiers Re: the_dojang: TKD History -- Questions Re: the_dojang: ITF / WTF (yet again ;-) the_dojang: DoJu Ji seminar, reminder [none] ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 850 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LAHapkido@aol.com Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 18:33:23 EDT Subject: the_dojang: SF( Special Forces) Yes, They are a few of us that actually went throught the SF training , that are on this list. I went throught Airborne, Ranger and Special Forces training and they each had their own meriots. All special Op's training is meant to push you to your limit' and more. I had a couple of friends that went throught training with me that were prior service and had went throught Navy Seal training and said that the biggest difference was all of the time spent Rucking and Running verses swimming. It is all a state of mine my Dad use to say If you don't mine it don't matter. The bottom line is if you really want to know how hard it is or who's training is the toughest. See your local recruiter they are always looking for good people. For the record Rok's are by for no slouches and should not be considered anything less then what they are( hard chargers with a mission in mind). Dan Rogers 91B4PVS ------------------------------ From: "Jon David Payne" Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 19:16:21 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: ROK SF >>could they do the same things using a lower level of tech? 1 meal a day?? just wanna know Arthur>> One meal a day is not uncommon for regular "leg" troops in the US military during field exercises. That one meal a day is a (MRE) meal ready to eat. Jon David Payne USAFR ------------------------------ From: ICyrus8528@aol.com Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 20:49:31 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #279 Hi John: I will do what I can to come up to pittsburg for your seminar. Ian A. Cyrus ------------------------------ From: Dave Steffen Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 19:31:55 -0600 (MDT) Subject: the_dojang: ITF / WTF (yet again ;-) > From: Anders Torvill Bjorvand > At 13:30 26/04/2000 -0700, you wrote: > >.... The number of ITF 7th Dan masters continues to grow. There > >are now three ITF Grand Masters (besides General Choi). A minor clarification: the General no longer accepts the title "9th Dan". He's just the founder of the art; from a certain point of view, that person can't really have any rank in it. ;-) He used the title "9th Dan" until he promoted Grand Master Rhee, Ki Ha to 9th (that was in 1998 IIRC). I had the privelage of dining with the General later that year (at a seminar in Phoenix), where he stated he was "stepping down" from the position of 9th Dan, and was content simply to be the Founder of the art. (That's not exactly how he said it, but you get the idea.) So, yes, technically, we have 3 9th Dans: GM Rhee, Ki Ha; GM Hwang, Kwang Sung; GM Charles E. Serif. > The kukkiwon has issued over 150 9th dans. I believe we have 5 of them here in Colorado. Interesting contrast, no? > >I truly believe that the future of Taekwon-Do is dependent on > >cooperation between the two major organizations. I disagree, but see below... > I have trained both tae kwon-do and taekukkiwondo (wtf :-) and > personally prefer the ITF style technically. Ditto, and I agree. ;-) > However, the two organizations are no longer equal or comparable to > each other in strength although the ITF prefer to give that > impression. ITF isn't even in second place - I believe the ATA is. > My best guess is that the combinded WTF and Kukkiwon (both WTF and > non-WTF) branch is several tenfolds larger than ITF when it comes > to masters, instructors and most importantly: members. You're very likely right; although the ITF exists in a large number of countries (not quite as many as the WTF, IIRC, but close), I'm sure we're way behind in raw _numbers_. But, let me point out, that this is not the only reason we have so few high rank black belts. Going back to the number of 9th Dans (150 vs 3), one should not draw the conclusion that the WTF is 50 times bigger than the ITF. ;-) I may get flamed for the following statement -- I may even deserve it ;-) -- but from what I've seen, ITF ranks are much harder to get than WTF ranks. Datum: the only 9th Dans we've got are people who have, for all practical purposes, been with the General since the beginning. They've all been training with him for ~45 years. Are there really 150 people in the WTF with 45 years of experience? (There probably are people in the WTF with that much experience - but 150?) Datum: I've spoken to more than one 4th Dan who has come over from Korea. My understanding (WTF'ers out there, feel free to correct me) is that at the Kukkiwon, you can actually get the equivalent of College degrees, and in particular you can get a "Master's Degree" after the equivalent of 2 years of graduate school. Pass the classes, and you're promoted to 4th Dan as part of the curriculum. I'm not saying that these guys aren't good - they are - but that's not at all the kind of thing a 4th Dan means over in the ITF. Also, IIRC, this is the reason that in the WTF a 4th Dan is addressed as "Master" for this reason - you've got (something like) a M.S. in Physics. In contrast, "Master" in the ITF means 7th and 8th Dans, and "Grand Master" is reserved for 9th. > >I don't hold out very much hope for a merger between the two > >groups as there have been to many modifications and changes in > >philosophy. > > I totally agree. Both styles have their strengths and > weaknesses. We are better off maintaining them separately than > trying to make a unified style. Diversity is normally a good thing. Agreed... > In my opinion, WTF/Kukkiwon and ITF styles are normally at least as > different as different karate ryu, and the martial art community > seem to have settled with the benefit of having several ryu of > karate (within reasonable limits of course). Agreed, seconded, and amen, brother! ;-) BTW, part of the General's beef with the WTF is simply the name. GM Hwang told us once that the General isn't that upset that a bunch of people went and developed what we now know as WTF-style Taekwondo - he just thinks they should have adopted a different name, because it's very confusing. > >Maybe there can be a friendlier relationship between the groups. In fact, interesting things are happening: Recently (1999 I believe), the General returned to South Korea for the first time in... well... since when he left. (1962? I'm not sure.) He was invited back by the President of S. Korea, who apparently is not buying into the revisionist history that paints the General as a traitor. In fact, I hear we actually have 3 ITF-style TKD schools in S. Korea. I get the impression - although I may be very wrong about this - that part of this involved some discussion, at some level, about reunification of TKD. I personally don't think reunification is anywhere in the near future, but I do get the general impression that there _might_ be the possibility of better relations between the two organizations. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Steffen Wave after wave will flow with the tide Dept. of Physics And bury the world as it does Colorado State University Tide after tide will flow and recede steffend@lamar.colostate.edu Leaving life to go on as it was... - Peart / RUSH "The reason that our people suffer in this way.... is that our ancestors failed to rule wisely". -General Choi, Hong Hi ------------------------------ From: ICyrus8528@aol.com Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 21:40:36 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #283 As I wrote previously, I recently had an opportunity to talk face to with Doju Suh, Bok Sup regarding the early history of Hapkido. He has a different recollection of what transpired during the early days of Hapkido. I won't go into a lengthy discussion about the content of our conversation. At least not yet. It seems however, that Hapkido has become the proverbial elephant with several blind men touching different parts. One experiences it as a huge tree trunk, the other experiences a huge rope, and yet still another experiences a wall. In other words, the history of Hapkido is colored by perceptions. We will, in all likelihood, never know the whole story. The questions that are asked, the more questions remain unanswered. The fact remains that Doju Choi, Yong Sul is the acknowledged founder of this great art. The other personalities are his descendants. So, enough said. Finally, the only that changes are the names we give to things. Ian A. Cyrus, Headmaster ChoSon Kwon Bup Int'l ChoSonDo Fed. ------------------------------ From: burdickd Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 20:42:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: the_dojang: TKD History -- Questions Ray, do you know anything about the sources on this one? (from www.roundhousemag.com) >Funakoshi in Japan, and Hwang Ki learned Kanbukan karate from Koichi >Kondo whilst working for the Japanese in Manchuria. Where did the information on this one come from? >The Choson Yon Moo Kwan was established after World War Two. Nope. It was founded in 1931, according to Dr. He-Young Kimm. And it should either be romanized as Chosun Yun Moo Kwan or as Choson Yonmukwan (the latter is McCune-Reischauer stripped of the special little horns over the "o"s). >The Kyo Tong Bu Woo Association was founded and taught by Hwang Ki >during 1947 and during 1955, it changed its name to Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo >Do. This is interesting. What is the source? Do we know? As for the influence of nations and the fact that tkd is not "Korean karate," does that mean that "American Taekwondo" is actually a new art called "kickboxing"? Take care, Dakin Burdick burdickd@indiana.edu ------------------------------ From: Dave Steffen Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 19:54:25 -0600 (MDT) Subject: the_dojang: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #284 > From: "StarrAvis" > I laid off reading the last several weeks of the digest and wow did > dave s. ever do a bashing on the UTB. That sounds like the old ITF > vs WTF bashing. I know that GM Humesky is not in the good graces of > the USTF but wow, Dave. BTW I still produce the EARLY MASTERS OF > TKD VIDEO from the mid 1960's. I wondered if anyone noticed - I figured everyone was so deep into the ADD thing nobody read my rantings. ;-) Actually, I wasn't really trying to hammer on the UTB, although it probably sounded that way. I was, to some degree, playing Devil's Advocate, trying to stir things up, and in particular, to get some discussion going as to what organizations are good for, and why. I say "to some degree" in the last paragraph because I do stand behind my point - any organization that claims to include _all_ styles of TKD is either hopeless, useless, or impossible. ;-) I actually have a lot of sympathy for the stated intent of the UTB; we've tried to do the same thing, more than once. It just doesn't work. People have different philosophies, different approaches to the martial arts, different things they want out of an organization. Heck, look at it this way: if we asked the member of the_Dojang to define what TaeKwon-Do is, we'd probably get 300 different responses, at least half of which would be mutually exclusive. Now, look: a very good friend of mine teaches Okinawan Go Ju Ryu; we debate all the time. He doesn't understand the Sine Wave, I don't understand Go Ju at all - I think it's totally wierd ;-). Everything his art says is right, my art says is wrong, and vice-versa. He thinks I'm too loose; I think he's too tight. But that's OK! TaeKwon-Do (at least the ITF version ;-) is _supposed_ to be loose. Go Ju is _supposed_ to be wierd. That's how the art works. But Serrano Sensei is obviously a _tremendous_ martial artist, of the highest caliber. I don't know how Go Ju works, but it obviously does! ;-) Likewise, he respects me, and my art, and my instructor, and so we have sushi together a lot. So, here we have two totally different schools, with absolutely no technical common ground whatsoever. But we get along great, and have a good time. I think this is what the UTB is after. My point is that to have an _ORGANIZATION_ that both Colorado International TaeKwon-Do (me) and the Okinawan Bujitsu Kenkyukai (Sensei Serrano)(and don't quote me on the spelling! ;-) are members of is kind of ridiculous; such an organization can state nothing at all about its members' arts, except that the instructors get along. And this was precisely what I was trying to start some debate about. Given two schools are part of the same organization, what does that mean? What _should_ it mean? What _could_ it mean? I suspect that there's more than one philosophy concerning the function / role of a martial art organization; I've personally experienced the ITF and WTF, and suspect their justifications-for-existence are totally different. Understanding that clearly would, IMHO, lead to better relations between them. P.S. I expressed some of this in private email with the original poster (I've deleted the email, and can't remember the name). I hope they're not _too_ pissed off at me, and took my original reply as it was intended: not as a personal attack against them, but A) a statement of my feelings about some M.A. organizations, and B) an attempt to generate some debate. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Steffen Wave after wave will flow with the tide Dept. of Physics And bury the world as it does Colorado State University Tide after tide will flow and recede steffend@lamar.colostate.edu Leaving life to go on as it was... - Peart / RUSH "The reason that our people suffer in this way.... is that our ancestors failed to rule wisely". -General Choi, Hong Hi ------------------------------ From: "J. R. West" Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 21:13:45 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: USA SF vs: ROK SF It has been my observation that, after dealing with SF folks from the UK, Israel, Korea and the US of A, they are all well trained and attrition rates are high in all of these varied groups, and I have generally been very happy that they were always "with me" rather than "agin' me". Some of the main differences that I found were that the Israelis trained under the idea that they would be defending their homeland directly and trained with this in mind, making them a very formidable group (remember that they had only been a "country" for less than 20 years, and the "7 day war" was only over for less than a few months when I had the opportunity to meet them). The Koreans were, by far, the most efficient group at scaring the crap out of the enemy just by being around, as captured communications showed. They were also the most ruthless group and would often laugh at our "rules for civilized warfare", and their interrogation techniques were VERY efficient. I slept much better at night knowing these guys were my friends. The Brits (SAS) impressed me by there extremely cool, quiet professionalism, and I also learned quickly that one never makes fun of the kilts worn by the "Black Watch". All in all, they each were OUTSTANDING in their own fields and most of the films portraying them are not up to the reality, and anyone who has completed the required training to join one of these groups has my respect. I can remember thinking many times that I had taken a bigger bite out of the military than I could chew, but I was just adventuresome, not smart. If anyone wishes further clarification or information, feel free to contact me personally........J. R. West www.hapkido.com ------------------------------ From: "Moja Kwan - C. Richards" Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 21:39:14 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Old Ways Dear Jesse, At the time I was a Cho Dan, the TSDMDK practitioners I trained with acknowledged all yudanja upon entering the dojang. Personally, I would agree, an opening and closing bow is sufficient for class. A courtesy bow is appropriate as you said when getting extra attention on a technique from a senior, or say before sparring match ups. Some time later I was at an outdoor clinic where on of the senior masters explained it this way. Acknowledge the instructor on the floor (area). Do not call the class to attention again unless some one more senior in rank arrives, at which time it would be appropriate to bow. As this clinic was open to Dan candidates through 3rd dan, and run by junior and senior masters, there would have been a lot of bowing going on if the dan candidates had to acknowledge every yudanja . In my post I was bringing out the horseplay attitude, and lack of discipline addressing the chief instructor/owner by his first name with your dobohk top wide open and your belt around your neck. But as I've said before I hope everyone is doing what works in their schools. Yours in training, CR ------------------------------ From: "Moja Kwan - C. Richards" Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 21:54:16 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: History of Taekwondo Can anyone confirm the accuracy of this article. Especially the dates and origional names of the various kwans. Many Thanks, Charles Richards Moja Kwan TSD ------------------------------ From: "Moja Kwan - C. Richards" Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 22:16:56 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Rangers, Seals, PJ's and ROK soldiers I've also been impressed with the US Forrest Service "Smoke Jumpers." Ever heard a tape of a forrest fire passing over your one man fire-resistant tent. Lets not forget the Hotamitanio (Roman Nose's Cheyenne Dog Soldiers). For all warriors that have served their country I salute you. For all practitioners that employ Shugyo in training I appluad you. Respectfully, Charles Richards Moja Kwan TSD ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 20:08:27 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: TKD History -- Questions > > Ray, do you know anything about the sources on this one? > > (from www.roundhousemag.com) No, sorry, you'll have to check with the publisher. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 20:22:54 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: ITF / WTF (yet again ;-) > Datum: I've spoken to more than one 4th Dan who has come over from > Korea. My understanding (WTF'ers out there, feel free to correct me) > is that at the Kukkiwon, you can actually get the equivalent of > College degrees, and in particular you can get a "Master's Degree" > after the equivalent of 2 years of graduate school. Pass the classes, > and you're promoted to 4th Dan as part of the curriculum. There is the TKD College, was the Yudo College. It is a Phys Ed school. Once you graduate from that college you also receive your 4th Dan. It is very difficult to gain entrance (various physical and mental tests) and all those that do are already at Dan level. (or so a graduate explained to me) > Also, IIRC, this is the reason that in the WTF a 4th Dan is > addressed as "Master" for this reason - you've got (something like) a > M.S. in Physics. In contrast, "Master" in the ITF means 7th and 8th > Dans, and "Grand Master" is reserved for 9th. I believe that a Kukkiwon 5th Dan may use the term Master in the US. In the rest of the world it is 6th. Grandmaster is 8th. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 20:31:02 PDT Subject: the_dojang: DoJu Ji seminar, reminder Just a reminder... Ray __________________________________________________________ World SinMoo Hapkido Association International Instructors Seminar 2000 Featuring: DoJuNim, Ji, Han Jae Founder and Supreme Grandmaster of Hapkido 5 Great Days of Traning June 26th through June 30th, 2000 Bonus! Special Belt Techniques Seminar with DoJu Ji on Saturday, July 1 for all that pre-pay by June 1. Hosted by Chief Master Ken and Sheryl MacKenzie MacKenzie's Korean SinMoo Hapkido Institute (World Headquarters Dojang) 200 White Horse Road, Voorhees, NJ 08043 Please make all checks payable to MacKenzie's Hapkido (seminar fee is $500) & send you seminar fee to: MacKenzie's Hapkido PO Box 262 Atco, NJ 08004 USA The fee for the buffet-style dinner/banquet will be $25 per person and will be held at a Korean/American restaurant (Il Mee Jung). Event Coordinators: Chief Master MacKenzie, Master Sheryl MacKenzie, Master Scott Yates, Master Mike Wilson, Ms. Cathy Rought, Mr. Matt Spino. Hotel accommodations can be made at the Hampton Inn in Cherry Hill, NJ by calling 856-346-4500. Transportation from the hotel to the training site will be provided by Chief Master MacKenzie's students. Hotel room rate is $78 per night w/codeword "MacKenzie". Contact Chief Master MacKenzie's office manager, Kellie at 856-346-1111 to reserve your place in the event. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 20:14:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [none] ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #285 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.