From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #286 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thur, 27 April 2000 Vol 07 : Num 286 In this issue: the_dojang: Special Forces Discussion the_dojang: re: weapon training for lefties the_dojang: ROK training the_dojang: Uncovering a Legacy of Lost History the_dojang: re: Mr. Steffen the_dojang: re: Kukkiwon Masters the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #284 the_dojang: 4th Dan Test the_dojang: Membership of various orgs the_dojang: History of TKD-Roundhouse the_dojang: Chukha!!! (Belated) the_dojang: RE: ITF vs. WTF Re: the_dojang: re: Kukkiwon Masters [none] ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 850 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "tink73" Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 22:49:29 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Special Forces Discussion I am not sure how all this comparison between Special Forces Units and the ROK units got started. I simply stated that the ROK armed forces were one of the most formidable units in the world. I did not say they were better than any other unit nor the best. The whole idea of comparing top trained elite units with each other is absurd. Each unit has its training specifically geared to the mission of the unit. The Army has its mission as does the Navy, the Air Force, and the Marines. The special forces units associated with each has their unique missions as well. The Marines are considered to be special forces because of the mission they perform. What I am getting at is comparing these highly trained elite units to each other is the same as comparing Masters and Grand Masters from different art styles to each other. There is no need. They all trained hard for their specific style and they are all among the elite. Fighting over who is better or who is tougher is mute. Had I known it was going to create an argument I would have not mentioned it. So is it possible we can drop the discussion and get back to Martial arts? My humble apologies... The One and Only... Tink ------------------------------ From: Arthur Lee <7akl3@qlink.queensu.ca> Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 23:49:31 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: re: weapon training for lefties Hey Chris, Here's my experience with weapons so far... back in my TKD days, we dabbled a bit using the bok-gum (wooden sword) and the bong (wooden staff, much thinner than the quarterstaff, and a bit shorter too) The staff was used by both hands so a question of handedness never arose and we always used the bok-gum with two hands also, but i'm not too sure if it mattered if you did it right/left handed Now, I am in Hae-Dong-Gum-Do and we begin with two hands, and once an individual has reached a high enough level (maybe anthony can help me out here, it's a black belt level...), the practitioner learns one handed style, and if i'm correct (through what i've heard) each hand is equally important and one should be able to perform with both hands with equal effectiveness. Once this is done, then the student may begin two sword style... but that's another story that i have no idea about. Sorry for the lack of info, but maybe Anthony Boyd (another DD suscriber) could help you out. Arthur ------------------------------ From: Arthur Lee <7akl3@qlink.queensu.ca> Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 00:22:07 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: ROK training Hey all, Disclaimer... these are just stories i've heard from Korean friends of mine who've gone through the mandatory military training in korea... maybe they've spiced it up to scare me... who knows... but they seemed honest enough 8), also sorry for the poor details, as he doesn't know english perfectly yet, and i don't understand korean perfectly yet either... my friend who went through army training in S. korea, told me of a time when their group was air dropped on one side of a mountain and were told to make a one week long trip back to base camp with just the back packs they carried. on certain parts of the trail, snow would be hip deep, and my friend almost fell asleep for a VERY long time, if it wasn't for his buddy beside him, but there were many others that did not have this luxury. My friend said that not everyone would make it back from the "hike". He also said that at base camp, they were given a short amount of time to finish a meal, and even after they finished the meal, everyone would still be hungry. everyone would rush in, in controlled groups, sit down at their table, say thank you for food, eat their food, simultaneously finish their food, say thank you for food, and synchronously stand up and clean their plates and leave... now... if the regular army was training like this... then how are the korean SF training??? another side story - my friend saw a film of a N korean military troop (i don't know from what division), doing a target practice, and the guy was firing his sidearm while running sideways, and he hit all his targets, 100 % accuracy.... scary... Arthur p.s. ray... i don't know if this is off topic or not 8) p.s. unfortunately... i don't have internet for the summer... so i guess then that i'll be back on the list in september sometime... although i can occasionally look at my email, the high volume of AWESOME DD emails unfortunately would easily and quickly overflow the school server... so see you guys in a couple of months... ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 21:44:30 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Uncovering a Legacy of Lost History Forwarding. Ray - ---------------------------------- VOICES Program Uncovering a Legacy of Lost History May 9; 7:00-8:30pm The Korea Society, 950 Third Avenue, 8th Floor, NYC Author Margaret Juhae Lee is currently a Bunting Fellow at the Radcliffe Institute for Advanced Study in Cambridge, MA. She will introduce her work in progress entitled, Starry Field: A Memoir of Lost History, which reconstructs the life of her grandfather's struggle against the colonial Japanese empire. Lee Chul Ha aroused the wrath of the Japanese military government, who imprisoned him for almost five years. The legacy of forty years of harsh colonial rule colors the very fabric of modern Korean history and identity. Margaret Lee's memoir about her grandfather reconstructs the facts of his life against the backdrop of a country still struggling with reclamation of its past. Starry Field will also tell the story of the suppression of history through the views and memories of three generations of her family. The program is free of charge and open to the public. RSVP by May 8. Contact Alina Oh at 212-759-7525 ext. 15 or alina.ny@koreasociety.org . Alina Oh Program Associate The Korea Society 212-759-7525 ext. 15 alina.ny@koreasociety.org www.koreasociety.org ------------------------------ From: HwarangTSD@aol.com Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 02:54:50 EDT Subject: the_dojang: re: Mr. Steffen I agree with most of your post. The differences are so minor as not to deserve comment. I do, however, wish, and agree, that Kukki-TKD had modified the name so as not to be confusing. When I do teach TKD, I call it by its old Kwan name (our TKD is Jung Do Kwan an off shoot of Chung Do Kwan). I prefer teaching Tang Soo Do because either there is less politics, or I simply have not been exposed to them. This is not meant to offend anyone. I am merely agreeing with the post. Master Frank Clay ------------------------------ From: HwarangTSD@aol.com Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 03:08:53 EDT Subject: the_dojang: re: Kukkiwon Masters It was my understanding that a kukkiwon 4th dan is a master and a 6th dan may be considered a kwanjangnim if he runs his own school. Interesting to note, that a kwanjangnim may also be a business owner (not related to martial arts). Further, the term Chun Kwanjangnim is reserved for 9th dans and 8th dans under rare circumstances. This information came to me by way of a US Army Korean Interpreter who teaches TKD. He also requested his name be withheld due to the fact that he wants no "flaming" emails. I have agreed to his wish. He also indicated that there are also other more archaic titles in use by someorganizations, but the final designation is up to the organization. For example, when I became a Master in Hwa Rang Tang Soo Do, headed by Grandmaster Pak, Ho Sik, he referred to me as Kodanja.(he also calls me Sabum and Master Frank.) Upon questioning him further about the term Kodanja, he indicated that it meant "a very high person" and is most commonly used to refer to your seniors, but that he was merely congratulating me on my accomplishment. Personally, I believe that one may become a sabumnim at 4th dan, but that it should not be automatic. There should be other criteria for attaining this title, and from what I've seen by many organizations, this program is in place. Thank you, and sorry for my long post. Master Frank Clay ------------------------------ From: JBoorstein@aol.com Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 07:11:51 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #284 When I took fencing -- like you mostly foil and a little epee -- my teacher insisted we learn both hands. His idea was that if one side were injured, you could switch -- or if fencing a left hander, you could "mess him up." In some older forms of the art, espada y daga, for example, acutally made use of having a sword or dagger in each hand and using both together. With edged weapons, I still tend to practice basic movements with both hands. However, if it's a form, I only practice the side required. (Now if I could only find the time to practice as much as I'd like and need.... ) JB ------------------------------ From: "Tomlinson, Michael E." Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 08:17:20 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: 4th Dan Test On April 15th, I tested for my 4th Dan in Sin Moo Hapkido under Master Rick Nabors at the Korea Martial Arts Dojang in Tampa Florida. The test was approximately 4 hours long and Master Nabors put me thru the paces not only physically but mentally. One of the prime ideas of this test was to see if I understand and then can execute and explain the BASIC principles of what Doju Nim Ji Han Jae has taught us. A lot of people talk about the basics of Hapkido but after working with Doju Nim Ji I have a totally different insight on what proper basics are. Fourth Dan is really to prepare you for being able to teach what you have learned and I am very proud and humble when I say that I will go forth and translate what I have learned and will continue to learn from Doju Nim Ji. One of my primary missions now is to help propel Doju Nim Ji's Hapkido to the next generation of students, I have a long way to go in my techniques and I am far from perfect but one day I will get there! In this case as with many others I would say that the journey is more fulfilling than the destination. I just want to say thanks to Master Nabors, Javier Agosto, and all the others that helped us with the testing. You gentlemen are class acts and really exemplify what Hapkido and training is all about. Michael Tomlinson ------------------------------ From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 07:23:37 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Membership of various orgs Just a question due to relative size of the different TKD and other Korean Art orgs. Does anyone know what the current active membership of ITF, ATA, USTA, and WTF are? Same question for the Hapkido, Kuk Sool orgs? And what about the TSD orgs? I have heard all sorts of claims in various articles, but they usually have no real numbers attached. Danny Dunn danny.dunn@redstone.army.mil ------------------------------ From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 07:57:23 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: History of TKD-Roundhouse I remember reading this article last year when it came out. I and a number of others, appearantly, emailed the editor suggesting that they require or furnish references on their articles, a lot of which are quite good. The editor responded soon afterward that there was no need to provide reference to articles, because this was not a research type publication. By the way, Mr. Burdock and Mr. Richards, some of the info in that article is in conflict with the majority of sources I have seen and heard. Tang So! Danny Dunn danny.dunn@redstone.army.mil ------------------------------ From: Kim Jones Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 05:56:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Chukha!!! (Belated) Mr. Burrese - I extend my warm-hearted congratulations to you and your fiancee. It's a bit late as I haven't checked my email in a couple days, but I wish you two nothing but the best. ===== ~~Kim Jones (*ladytimberland@yahoo.com*) http://kenochi_timberland.tripod.com/ ICQ: 52828008 AOL: Lady Timberland "The path of excess leads to the tower of wisdom." Enigma, "Gravity of Love" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online and get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: Robert Martin Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 06:57:51 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: ITF vs. WTF From: Anders Torvill Bjorvand Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 23:21:16 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #283 >The kukkiwon has issued over 150 9th dans. Hope this isn't a quantity vs. quality issue. "Overwhelm them with massive numbers!" >However, the two organizations are no longer equal or comparable to each >other in strength although the ITF prefer to give that impression. ITF >isn't even in second place - I believe the ATA is. >My best guess is that the combinded WTF and Kukkiwon (both WTF and non-WTF) >branch is several tenfolds larger than ITF when it comes to masters, >instructors and most importantly: members. See above. Can't comment on the ATA. Isn't it pretty much an American organization? >Both styles have their strengths and weaknesses. We are better off >maintaining them separately than trying to make a unified style. Diversity >is normally a good thing. >In my opinion, WTF/Kukkiwon and ITF styles are normally at least as >different as different karate ryu, and the martial art community seem to >have settled with the benefit of having several ryu of karate (within >reasonable limits of course). There is the problem. I believe the WTF has strayed to far from Taekwon-Do to call itself that. I guess that accounts for the new spelling of taekwondo. >Yes - that would most definitely be great. We can learn from each other and >exchange experiences - that would be great. The whole ITF/WTF thing has its >roots in american McCarthyism with extreme paranoia for the commies and the >resulting Korean conflict. I would say its more of a Korean type McCarthyism. Keep in mind the kukkiwon/WTF was formed in 1971-1972 (or so) and General Choi didn't go to North Korea until 1982 or 1983 (I can never remember those dates exactly). One of the best things about the ITF is its consistency. Recently I had a red belt and 1st Dan visit my school from England. The patterns were the same, the basic techniques were the same and sparring was the same. A member of the ITF can got to any other ITF school in the world and will feel at home. Hope I haven't ticked off the list too much. Taekwon Robert Martin ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 7:13:23 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: re: Kukkiwon Masters > It was my understanding that a kukkiwon 4th dan is a master and a 6th dan may > be considered a kwanjangnim if he runs his own school. Interesting to note, > that a kwanjangnim may also be a business owner (not related to martial > arts). Umm, no, not really. The term Kwanjang is completely unrelated to the rank anyone is at, at least within the WTF/Kukkiwon realm. In the US a 4th Dan should probably be considered a Master since they can be a 'Dan tester', but that is not the case. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 06:59:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [none] ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #286 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.