From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #287 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thur, 27 April 2000 Vol 07 : Num 287 In this issue: the_dojang: Lua and Kuialua the_dojang: Re: ITF / WTF (yet again ;-) the_dojang: Re: Hapkido History the_dojang: Straight Punch or Haymaker the_dojang: KKW 9th dans the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #284 the_dojang: Master's terms the_dojang: re: 4th Dan and/or Master Re: the_dojang: re: 4th Dan and/or Master the_dojang: Master Clay's post on master level [none] ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 900 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mitar or Marko" Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 16:29:54 +0100 Subject: the_dojang: Lua and Kuialua Thank you Mr Terry, It seems that lua and kuialua is the same thing (or very similar) since the art of kuialua was introduced like "bone breaking" art too, when I was watching a TV show. Perhaps, kuialua is a part of lua or something like that. Mitar ------------------------------------------------------------ E - mail: tkwd@drenik.net If you want to know anything about Tae Kwon Do, visit us at: http://home.drenik.net/tkwd ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ From: "Christopher Spiller" Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 15:40:26 GMT Subject: the_dojang: Re: ITF / WTF (yet again ;-) >A minor clarification: the General no longer accepts the title "9th >Dan". He's just the founder of the art; from a certain point of view, >that person can't really have any rank in it. ;-) >He used the title "9th Dan" until he promoted Grand Master Rhee, Ki >Ha to 9th (that was in 1998 IIRC). >I had the privelage of dining with the General later that year (at a >seminar in Phoenix), where he stated he was "stepping down" from the >position of 9th Dan, and was content simply to be the Founder of the >art. (That's not exactly how he said it, but you get the idea.) >So, yes, technically, we have 3 9th Dans: GM Rhee, Ki Ha; GM Hwang, >Kwang Sung; GM Charles E. Serif. This is an interesting development. I know that in Aikido Morihereu Ueshiba never claimed to have any rank. He was just "O'Sensei." Likewise, in the line of many traditional Japanese Martial Arts his system was passed on to his son, and now to his grandson. Both of these men did not receive official rankings either. The thinking being that as the head of a style they are kind of "outside" of the ranks. There are Aikido practitioners who are senior to the current head of the Hombu Dojo (Moriteru Ueshiba) but he is still head of the style. I am interested to see if anything like this will happen when the General either steps down or passes away. Will his son take over? What will his rank be? Will he be promoted to ninth dan? > > The kukkiwon has issued over 150 9th dans. >I believe we have 5 of them here in Colorado. Interesting contrast, >no? Yes, it is. Anybody know what the ranks of the kwan heads are? I would assume that these men, and probably their immediate succesors, are certaintly ninth dans, but how many others would have the training time required? > > However, the two organizations are no longer equal or comparable to > > each other in strength although the ITF prefer to give that > > impression. ITF isn't even in second place - I believe the ATA is. > > My best guess is that the combinded WTF and Kukkiwon (both WTF and > > non-WTF) branch is several tenfolds larger than ITF when it comes > > to masters, instructors and most importantly: members. Uh, isn't the ATA basically an American organization? I know they have a branch in South America (the Songh Ahm TKD Association, I think) but they don't seem to be a "world" organization, although I could be wrong. any of you ATA'ers know? >But, let me point out, that this is not the only reason we have so >few high rank black belts. Going back to the number of 9th Dans (150 >vs 3), one should not draw the conclusion that the WTF is 50 times >bigger than the ITF. ;-) Indeed, that is a jump in logic. >I may get flamed for the following statement -- I may even deserve it >;-) -- but from what I've seen, ITF ranks are much harder to get than >WTF ranks. From what I've seen it really depends on who the Master is if you are WTF. They seem to pretty much set the standards for their own students while the ITF leaves that to their governing bodies. So in the WTF you could theoretically have individuals who have very stringent rank tests while others do not and in the ITF it will depend on which national organization one belongs to. >Datum: the only 9th Dans we've got are people who have, for all >practical purposes, been with the General since the >beginning. They've all been training with him for ~45 years. Are >there really 150 people in the WTF with 45 years of experience? >(There probably are people in the WTF with that much experience - but >150?) Indeed. This seems unlikely. However, it goes back to what the philosophy behind a ninth dan is. >BTW, part of the General's beef with the WTF is simply the name. GM >Hwang told us once that the General isn't that upset that a bunch of >people went and developed what we now know as WTF-style Taekwondo - >he just thinks they should have adopted a different name, because >it's very confusing. Ahh, let us revisit the continuing discussion regarding the founder of Hapkido here at the Digest. There seems to be a parallel here. What is it about Korean MA's and names? >Recently (1999 I believe), the General returned to South Korea for >the first time in... well... since when he left. (1962? I'm not >sure.) He was invited back by the President of S. Korea, who >apparently is not buying into the revisionist history that paints the >General as a traitor. >In fact, I hear we actually have 3 ITF-style TKD schools in S. Korea. I heard about this a couple of years ago. Any more information on this? Are the schools in Seoul? How does the Kukkiwon and the WTF view them? I thought it was illegal to get Taekwon-Do ranks from someone other than the Kukkiwon (i.e., the Kwans), or has this changed recently? Taekwon, Chris "Every experience of beauty points to infinity." Hans Urs von Balthasar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: jsegovia@mindspring.com Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 11:55:20 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Hapkido History ICyrus8528@aol.com wrote: > I recently had an opportunity to talk face to with > Doju Suh, Bok Sup regarding the early history of Hapkido. He has a different > recollection of what transpired during the early days of Hapkido. I'd love to hear a detailed account, but if not, could you give at least a summary of what he said? > The fact remains that Doju Choi, > Yong Sul is the acknowledged founder of this great art. Yes, but the Hapkido that I have seen at dojangs in the US and Korea is apparently very different from the Yawara that GM Choi YongSul brought from Japan. What were the changes, and who is responsible for the changes? For example, I think it's generally acknowledged that GM Ji and GM Kim MooWoong introduced Hapkido kicking, and that GM Choi YongSul kicked very little. Has HoShinSul also changed over the years? Jesse ------------------------------ From: "Mac" Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 11:23:24 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Straight Punch or Haymaker >.. I have noticed that many techniques in >response to a punch in Hapkido are practiced >off the straight punch, where as >I suspect that most punches on the street are >hooks or haymaker type punches. >Anyone care to comment on this? Jose' As Grandmaster J.R. West's Hapkido seminar, Master G. Booth gave a seminar on defenses against a "haymaker". I really enjoyed it. Mac ------------------------------ From: "Mac" Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 11:26:27 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: KKW 9th dans From: Anders Torvill Bjorvand <> I thought it was 210 world wide. Mac ------------------------------ From: Thayne_Coffman@trilogy.com Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 11:34:12 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #284 > one? I am not talking about technique drills but actual forms in your MA > system. For example, you Kuk Sool Won types, when you do your sword pattern > do you always do it right handed? What if you are left handed? > > Does performing a pattern weak handed entail more than just changing hands? > Do you change stepping, facing, etc. so the pattern is a mirror image or > just change your grip? > This is how it's done in my Kuk Sool studio, regardless of who's left-handed (like me) and who's right. empty-handed hyung: Learned righty at all under-black belt levels, and once you get to 1st degree, part of your 2nd degree curriculum is to learn them all lefty on your own time. throwing and joint locking techniques: Learned righty (for those that are single-handed) at all levels. Part of the curriculum to get to 2nd degree is to also learn all under-black techniques opposite hand. Single dan bong hyung: Taught right-handed at under-black belt, taught both ways at 1st degree. The way it's done both hands is to do it right-handed, add a step to switch stance and hands, and then it's repeated left-handed. (single) jung gum hyung, and jun bong il hyung: I've only seen them taught right-handed. Granted, at higher dan levels you may have to do them left-handed also, but I haven't seen anyone do it, and we have up to 3rd dan's at our school. (single) yuk gum (inverted sword) form, ssahng (double - sp?) dan gum hyung, ssahng jung gum hyung: Inverted sword form is a 2nd-degree form, double knife form is 3rd degree, double straight sword is master-level. I've only seen these done righty, although to be honest, on the last two I might not even realize if someone's doing it opposite hand. Kind of a mind-numbing thought. Whenever we switch hands on something we always switch stances, etc., so a left-handed version of something should be a perfect mirror of the right-handed version. ------------------------------ From: "Mac" Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 11:46:28 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Master's terms Master Clay, <> In Tang Soo Do, "Kodanja" refers to "Masters" (4th dan & up), whereas "Yudanja" refers to Dan members (1st thru 3rd dans). Titles can vary amoung organizations, but basically: 1st Dan - Bo Kyosa (nim) 2nd Dan - Kyosa (nim) 3rd Dan - Kyosa or Bo Sabom (nim) 4th-7th Dan - Sabom (nim) 8th-9th Dan - Kwanjang (nim) Mac ------------------------------ From: HwarangTSD@aol.com Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 13:07:56 EDT Subject: the_dojang: re: 4th Dan and/or Master Mr. Terry could you provide me the source for that statement? Some of my sources were, the army translator i told you about, Grandmaster Ed Sell, Grandmaster Ahn of the Virginia TKD Association (a Member of the USTU), the book The State of the Art Taekwondo by Masters Whang and Whang, Grandmaster Dae Ung Yoon of the KHF, and several others. Then there is Grandmaster Pak, Ho Sik, Grandmaster SG Dong, Grandmaster MP Kim, Grandmaster YK Kim, Grandmaster Richard Hackworth, and Grandmaster G. Lee. Almost all of my sources are high ranking Kukkiwon people and a couple of them are not. Some of the books that I have seen which also happens to have a letter of endorsement from the Kukkiwon, also indicates the same thing. If these publications were wrong, Why would Un Yong Kim provide this letter, endorsing these publications with his name? Needless to say, your post is in direct contradiction to what they, and many Koreans, have indicated. I'm not trying to be snippy, simply trying to find out.Not to mention, if this has been published, and is being taught by all of these people, and many more too numerous to list, why would they all be wrong. I find it very difficult to believe that all the Koreans who have provided contradictory information would all be wrong. Bear in mind that I am not indicating to have trained with all of these people, but I tend to be very inquisitive. Some of this information was published in school documents such as handbooks. Sincerely, Master Frank Clay ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 10:51:46 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: re: 4th Dan and/or Master > Mr. Terry could you provide me the source for that statement? Some of my > sources were, the army translator i told you about, The info came straight from the USTU office in Colorado Spgs. So ??? > Why would Un Yong Kim provide this letter, endorsing > these publications with his name? Business reasons. You'll find many -minor- errors in most of these books. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 13:19:25 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Master Clay's post on master level This is just another of the general info requests like I posted last issue, but there seems to be a lot of difference in what level different orgs bestow the title master. I would like to know at what levels each of the Korean Arts bestows the title master, is there a minimum time in training limit for the different dan levels and an overall minimum time in training requirement for reaching master. My question is for all the TKD, TSD, HKD and Kuk Sool orgs. I know that in WTSDA, my org, the minimum time is 14 years training, 4 years at sam dan, and master title is only given to individuals who own and run dojangs. Even though the minimum requirement is 14 years, most of the current candidates have 20 to 25 years training. Master Clay, according to my Kwan Jang Nim Shin, Jae Chul, in WTSDA there is only 1 at the time, and he is called Grandmaster, kodanja refers to dans above sam dan. Also, sorry Mr. Burdick, I had a typo in your name in one of my last posts. Danny Dunn danny.dunn@redstone.army.mil ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 11:27:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [none] ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #287 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.