From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #291 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Fri, 28 April 2000 Vol 07 : Num 291 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #289 the_dojang: Re: For Mr. Jim Mahan=Ranger training and other martial arts stuff the_dojang: Indeterminate Master Titles and Misquotes the_dojang: Re: pre-wwii the_dojang: Re: forms competition the_dojang: RE: Mike's promotion the_dojang: Jade Dragon Online the_dojang: Dictatorship? the_dojang: Re: GM SEO Re: the_dojang: Dictatorship? [none] ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 900 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. 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To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dave Weller Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 09:03:22 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #289 > ChunjiDo@aol.com Wrote: > this is interesting. i wonder about women too. for instance, when doing qi > gong/chi gung, one of the movements is to place right hand on the abdomen, > left hand on top of right. men and women do the opposite, however, and the > other places the left hand on the abdomen first, then the right hand over the > left. this is, similarly to the above post, due to flow of ki/chi/qi. so if > men have a 'right handed ki', if you will, and all techniques are taught to > that end, then what about the girlies? :) from a ki perspective, it may not > be healthy to "make them right handed". opinions? > > melinda I am guessing it is due to a Yin/yang difference in qi flow. Men , I think, are considered Yang. Women are Yin. Thus the opposite hand placement during Qi Gong practice. the concern there seems to be getting the Qi to flow "properly" and if it does in fact flow as mentioned ( out the right into left in a male and therefore opposite in women) then the hand placement surely would be important. My wife and I learned some Qi Gong from a Chinese Acupuncturist who lived with us for a time. He never differentiated between man and woman in the style we learned, but perhaps it was not a factor in the particular movements we were doing(Ba Dua Jin). There was also a "slight" problem with language, so training was not so much verbal as "monkey see, monkey do." You might very well be correct about forcing the right hand training on a woman. This of course is an opinion, subject to correction, modification or outright deletion. Dave Weller WTF TKD “Practice a thousand hours and you learn self discipline. Practice ten thousand hours and you learn about yourself.” Myamoto Musashi ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 07:55:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: For Mr. Jim Mahan=Ranger training and other martial arts stuff Mr. Jim Mahan noted: Response: First, here is to you and thanks for your service to our country (Ken picks up his traditional crown royale and 7 up and tips the glass to Mr. Mahan). Second, please discuss (if you care to) your Ranger training as compared to the respective martial art you currently train under. I would be interested in the comparison of what is taught in Ranger Training (and what is deemed to work in the "field") versus your martial arts school (and what you consider workable or not useable in a true survival mode). Thanks, Ken McD... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online and get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 10:02:30 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Indeterminate Master Titles and Misquotes In regard to Master Clay's definitive answer from USTU, "Sometimes your a Master, sometimes your not." How strange. Although I do know the feeling on a personnel level, from an organizational standpoint, it must certainly be confusing. I am still interested in master levels, minimum trainings requirements, ect from all Korean Arts. I wonder if there is some cultural idea that follows through to all the Arts. In regard to Mr. Steve Seo's post regarding his father, Grandmaster Seo, In Sun, I can sympathize on a couple of counts. I have been misquoted by reporters in the past myself, and I can say with some certainty, that misquotes are printed every day. As a rule, I never take a single article as the truth, particularly if it has controversial content. In general, the articles and interviews published in MA magazines( I don't consider them periodicals, which I define as referred journals)seem to have improved over the years, but I am sure a lot of you will agree with me that there is still a great variation in quality. I further agree with Mr. Seo that we are much to often willing to attack other people with little or no information. We (because I am a DD member) also seem to be willing to attack someone simply because we disagree with their opinions. I am thinking now about some recent hot threads on DD. I think most of our arts have self-control as a tenet. Danny Dunn danny.dunn@redstone.army.mil ------------------------------ From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 11:06:52 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: pre-wwii In a message dated 4/28/00 7:09:02 AM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Now I have another favor to ask. I have desparately been trying to find accurate information on Pre-WWII Korean Martial Arts. I even contacted the Hoplogical Society. No one seems to have anything that is not Nationalistically slanted. If anyone can point me in the direction of realiable sources, that I can document, I'd appreciate it. >> this would be extremely difficult to find. as we all know, after an occupation, cultural information is usually destroyed or re-written to reflect the intentions of the occupying government. perhaps dakin can help you find something along the lines you requested? melinda ChunjiDo -pe rsonal homepage http://hometown.aol.com/chunjido/homehtmlindex.html www.Chajonshim.com Martial Arts Supply now featuring a shopping cart for your convenience! :) Paidforsurf.com - - Main - get paid 75cents/hr to surf the net...i do! Looking for enlightenment is like looking for a flashlight, when all you need the flashlight for is to find the flashlight. ------------------------------ From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 11:16:04 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: forms competition In a message dated 4/28/00 7:09:02 AM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << I have done to-the-letter traditional Hyungs and Katas, >> whose alphabet? :)....poomse/hyung/forms grading is so inconsistent its scary. normally, a judge just looks for strong techniques and good flow of motion and in some instances, do not even know the form at which they are looking. there can be so many variations on a single form due to individual differences and preferences of masters/instructors who teach them to their students. these types of variations are respected by judges, who, again, look primarily for strong technique, flow, energy, and basic understanding of the form. this is one thing that should prove interesting if the wtf does actually create a poomse championship. it will be interesting to see how they specify grading the poomse. if you go to the kukkiwon to study poomse, it is my understanding that they are changing the forms to a shorter, fight ready stance, rather than a deep, deep stance. however, in the united states, we continue to study and practise the basic deep stances in our forms and with our blocks. will we be graded differently in an international competition or will allowances be made for individuality or lag time in technique? i believe it will be the same as it has been....many aspects are taken into consideration to come up with the total score. melinda ChunjiDo -pe rsonal homepage http://hometown.aol.com/chunjido/homehtmlindex.html www.Chajonshim.com Martial Arts Supply now featuring a shopping cart for your convenience! :) Paidforsurf.com - - Main - get paid 75cents/hr to surf the net...i do! Looking for enlightenment is like looking for a flashlight, when all you need the flashlight for is to find the flashlight. ------------------------------ From: Michael Forristall Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 10:55:56 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Mike's promotion Congratulations Mike! One question I have for you though... did you break any toes at this test? : ) Great Job. Mike Forristall - ------------------------------ From: HKDHW@aol.com Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 21:07:51 EDT Subject: the_dojang: 4th Dan-- Mike T Congratulation 's on your recent promotion to 4th Dan from the Black Belts of Moo ye Kwan. Hal - ------------------------------ ------------------------------ From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 11:20:50 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Jade Dragon Online Here's an interesting site/e-magazine that has an article of mine in the new issue. Lots of other interesting information too! Home Page for Jade Dragon Online Yours in training, Alain Burrese ------------------------------ From: "Carl W" Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 10:30:07 MDT Subject: the_dojang: Dictatorship? Respectfully and sincerely... TKDSCRIBE@aol.com wrote... QUOTE "When talking about "BEEFs," it is the WTF side, or, more accurately, the ROK's (South Korea's) beef that has the right to one. A big one at that. While the former general may be cheezed over a name, that hardly compares to the fact that he has been permanently exiled from his country. Since his exile, Grandmaster Hong Hee Choi, has spent time in North Korea and is considered a communist sympathizer. This is perhaps the biggest no-no one could commit in the ROK." UNQUOTE I do not think think that General Choi's exile was necessarily a negative thing, especially from a democratic perspective. He refused to allow TKD to be used for the politcal ends of a military dictatorship that had taken control of Korea and was exiled because of it. While this may be General Choi's explanation, I have yet to see any other side of the argument documented (i.e., any other perspectives have only been opinions and\or heresay). I would appreciate knowing of any legitimate reference material that would argue otherwise. Further, I do not see the harm of General Choi taking TKD to any country, regardless of their economic and\or political system. Because a country is communist, it be should denied access to TKD or anything else practiced in non-communist countries? TKDSCRIBE@aol.com wrote... QUOTE "I don't know how widely this is known, but I am told that if Mr. Choi were to enter his former homeland he would be arrested and jailed immediately." UNQUOTE I am unsure if you are stating this as a fact or as heresay? If its "widely known" it may considered to be a fact but then you say that "I am told". In any case, General Choi's return visits to S. Korea will be watched by many people, as well as governments, with great interest. I suspect that S. Korea would be well-advised to treat the General VERY graciously. TKDSCRIBE@aol.com wrote... QUOTE "Also, with regard to there being more people with high dan ranks in the WTF, aside from the WTF being much larger worldwide, there is another factor that may explain the number differential. That is that the WTF is structured as a democratic organization. This suggests that it may be considerably more impartial than the ITF which is structured as a dictatorship (Just like North Korea - hey, maybe that is why Mr. Choi is welcome there!) where one individual makes all the calls." UNQUOTE As a (colored belt) student of an ITF club, the editor of the Club newsletter, and a member of the Club's executive committee, I am entirely unaware of our being "dictated" to. Our club is duly registered as a non-profit society according to Canadian laws, has a constitution and bylaws, and elected executive positions. Any and all club members (including parents of students) are always more than welcome to any executive meetings. We present club financial statements at Annual General Meetings, again which are open. The only mention of the ITF in our constitution is that the Chief Instructor is responsible for ensuring that the TKD we practice follows the standards established by the ITF re: grading, testing, etc. There is not any doubt that our club is entirely democratic. Also, at the provincial level, all black belts are required to be members (for the grandiose fee of $10.00 a year!) and any other belt grade may also join, and attend all meetings, provided they can afford the substantial fee (again, a whopping $10.00). I apoligize that I am umaware of the operation of our national ITF organization (the Canadian Taekwon-Do Federation International) but if necessary I can research its machinations. Of course, and on the other hand, our club is run along military-type lines where the higher and senior levels enjoy greater responsibilities and duties. But it is my impression that many, if not all, martial art organizations follow this structure. Otherwise, white belts would be telling the instructors how perform and practice techniques, etc. Also, as in any other style, if the GM pronounced that a change to a technique or some other sort of technical issue were to be changed, then the students of that style would happily follow those instructions (or go off and form their own organizations?)! If we are being dictated to, I would appreciate knowing in which ways so that I may become "unprogrammed", so to speak. TKDSCRIBE@aol.com wrote... QUOTE "I don't know if this is the sole explanation for the difference in the number of high ranking masters, but is seems logical that it must play at least some part in it. I'd fear that unquestioning loyalty to Mr. Choi (Not something I have a problem with, BTW) may have more influence on who gets promoted to 7th dan and up, than other factors do." UNQUOTE I know nothing of how people "actually" get promoted at the advanced black belt levels so am unable to comment (thus far I am only familar with students achieving 1st and 2nd dan levels. Their promotions seem to have been based on technical skill, teaching, time committment, and hard work). I have "heard" though that promotion to the senior dan levels require demonstration of on-going committment and contribution to TKD, in addition to skill. My instructor received his 4th dan about 2 years ago, with 15 years of TKD experience - 9 of which have been teaching. I believe he hopes to achieve 5th dan within the next 5 years or so. TKDSCRIBE@aol.com wrote... QUOTE "Anyhow, I have seen some awesome technicians from the ITF side about 20 years back. Because of the Olympic connection, and because of it is not run by a dictator, many of these people have since sought and gained affiliation under the WTF." UNQUOTE I again apoligize if I misundertand your point. I would like to find something positive in the above but can only see unjustified criticism and resentment. TKDSCRIBE@aol.com wrote... QUOTE "Lastly, since the USTU is the Sole Representative of the WTF in America, it is important to mention that ANYONE can be a member of the USTU and any American Citizen may compete in its events -- right up to the Olympics. And if this sounds like a load of Bull, please consider Ms. Arlene Limas who was in Gungfu and an open tournament competitor for something like 19 years when she made the US (taekwondo) Team and won the Gold in Seoul in '88. Naturally she worked with a taekwondo coach to learn the rules and to gain experience under WTF rules, but I don't think she could have shown up to an official ITF event and have expected to not only be allowed to compete, but to actually be awarded points for her techniques by judges who were all promoted under a dictatorial leadership." UNQUOTE I am glad that the USTU is open and would not deny anybody with the ability and fortitude to "go for the gold" to do so. It is what I would expect of any democratic and free enterprise. However, I again am confused by your last sentence. It seems intentionally harsh and degrading, as well as invented. TKDSCRIBE@aol.com wrote... QUOTE "What do you all think?" UNQUOTE As above. Thank you. Sorry for the length of the response. Carl W ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "Victor Cushing" Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 12:39:58 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: GM SEO Having read the posts about the Korean article and also having just read Steve Seo's response, let me weigh in with what little I might contribute. As someone who has met and talked with GM SEO, it is very difficult to believe that a man who speaks quietly and reverently of GM CHOI in private would make the remarks attributed to him. GM SEO speaks softly and lets his actions on the mat show his skill. If I had to choose between his family's representations of truth and an unknown reporter's version of same, the choice requires very little time to make. Anyone who has been interviewed by the press and then awaited the publication of his or her remarks, knows that often the paper either gets it wrong or may distort what was said for their own purposes. When one adds the possibility of errors in translation from Korean to English into the mix. one should react very slowly and only after careful consideration and further analysis to anything in the press. Since the lineage of Hapkido is an emotional, almost religious issue to some members, it requires even more control of our thoughts and mouths than usual. Let's not turn into a bunch of gossips. Steve Seo is right , if you want to question someone.... ask them directly, instead of posting your speculations and reactions. Vic Cushing ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 10:00:49 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: Dictatorship? > I do not think think that General Choi's exile was necessarily a negative > thing, especially from a democratic perspective. He refused to allow TKD to > be used for the politcal ends of a military dictatorship that had taken > control of Korea and was exiled because of it. [ok, all my ITF friends will probably ban together to fire bomb my house now] Well, Gen. Choi was very happy with a military dictatorship government when it favored him and he freely used that clout to further his goals. However, the next military dictatorship government did not favor him nearly as much. Fortunately (which I believe) or unfortunately, the government and others did not want TKD to become just another 'one man art'. Consider what will happen to the ITF when Gen. Choi dies, or what will happen to Soo Bahk Do when GM Hwang dies? Do you believe those styles will continue to be as strong as they are now after the death of the single person that has been in complete and total charge for ~50 years? This, to me, is the difference between a family art or a one-man art (please excuse the gender bias) and an art that is organized to live far longer than any one single person or even a family can. Don't get me wrong, I personally feel that all those in TKD owe a ton to Gen. Choi for his efforts in the 1950s to early 1960s to pull the Kwans together. It took someone with his tremendous power and influence within the military and the government to do that. It was also his goal and dream to get TKD into the Olympics. Without his original vision, mission, and initial plans we may not have TKD in the Olympics today. But IMHO he should have been able to pass on the torch instead of insisting that he alone be the one to carry it forward into the future. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 12:30:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [none] ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #291 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.