From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #292 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Fri, 28 April 2000 Vol 07 : Num 292 In this issue: the_dojang: garcia/forms comp. [none] the_dojang: RE: Dictatorship? the_dojang: RE: forms competition the_dojang: I'm sure I'll have no ITF friends after this one :) the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #284 [none] ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 920 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Oregfightingarts@aol.com Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 15:39:07 EDT Subject: the_dojang: garcia/forms comp. Miguel, I have competed in traditional/musical/open/weapons/synchronized and fighting forms divisions in tkd, and open tournaments. Like you, I have done my absolute best and have been beaten, or not even placed, being bested by people with forms that I and many others felt were substandard. Dont take it personally. In many tourneys, judges are 'volunteered' to do the job, and may not know what to look for....just because they wear a blackbelt. Even doing different tkd forms at a tkd tourney has caused trouble (itf @ a wtf tourn.). Many judges feel that they cannot accurately judge a form they do not know. In the association I belong to, I helped develop the guidelines used for judging of forms competition. I also train new judges (we have several levels of judge certification). I always stress that they do NOT need to know the form to judge well. The 12 things we specifically look at are: Stances, technique, power, chamber, concentration, balance, speed flexibility, breath control, kihap, focus rhythm. Nothing is said about what form is done ie: chang-hun, palgue, taeguek, songham, or whatever. I was supervising a ring last year (new judges must be supervised), and need to intervene twice, due to the low scores that a goju-ryu guy and a girl doing a palgue rec'd. Judging only gets better if we make a concerted effort to improve it. A few months back, I got beat by a guy doing a BEAUTIFUL kempo form. None of the judges were familiar with it, and they just needed to follow the criterium to make it a fair score. To improve your forms in competition, you may need to help improve the judging. Either that, or practice twice as hard.......good luck Mark Gajdostik ------------------------------ From: "Christopher Spiller" Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 21:00:12 GMT Subject: [none] Dave Steffan wrote: >>BTW, part of the General's beef with the WTF is simply the name People,<< To which Master Silz replied: > When talking about "BEEFs," it is the WTF side, or, more >accurately, >the ROK's (South Korea's) beef that has the right to one. >A big one at >that. While the former general may be cheezed over a >name, that hardly >compares to the fact that he has been permanently >exiled from his country. > Since his exile, Grandmaster Hong Hee Choi, >has spent time in North >Korea and is considered a communist >sympathizer. This is perhaps the >biggest no-no one could commit in >the ROK. How is the ROK's "beef" the right one (I'm not saying it isn't. I just don't think a very good case for it has been made)? General Choi didn't go to the DPRK until 1982. That was about ten years AFTER he left the ROK. What the South Korean government seemed to be upset about IN THE FIRST PLACE was that the General said the President was a dictator and was trying to tell the ITF, an international organization, what to do. The whole issue of communist sympathies doesn't seem to be relevant at that time. It wasn't until the early 80's that the General went to North Korea, according to him because most of his South Korean instructors had already left for the WTF. You said it yourself, "since his exile" Gen. Choi has been considered a communist sympathizer. Of course, this is after having fought against the communists in the Korean War and leading the Democratic students' movement after WW II. Hmm. Additionally, I was under the impression that the General left the ROK he didn't get kicked out. His exile must have happened retroactively. It is a self-imposed exile, or was at first. This whole exile/communist argument is an anachronism. > I don't know how widely this is known, but I am told that if Mr. >Choi >were to enter his former homeland he would be arrested and jailed > >immediately. How does this square with Dave Steffan saying he was in South Korea in 1999? > Also, with regard to there being more people with high dan ranks >in >the WTF, aside from the WTF being much larger worldwide, there is >another >factor that may explain the number differential. That is that >the WTF is >structured as a democratic organization. It could also be that the WTF allegedly was going to revoke the visas of the Korean instructors who were overseas if they didn't join. GM Kwang Sung Hwang is just the most recent person I have seen make this statement (in a past issue of "Taekwon-Do Times"). I have NEVER heard anybody say this was false, ITF or WTF. Also, Dr. Un Yong Kim is high up in the IOC, possibly the next President after Samaranch retires. This probably has something to do with the WTF's inclusion in the Olympics. (As an aside: From what I've heard there's still some question as to whether or not TKD will be permanent after 2000. There has never been such a bending over backwards to get an Olympic sport in that I can recall. It seems like the relationship between Dr. Kim and Mr. Samaranch is definitely a boon to the WTF. Demonstration sports are supposed to get only one shot, the WTF get two - '88 and '92 - and there's still some question regarding TKD's standing.) >This suggests that it may be considerably more impartial than the ITF > >which is structured as a dictatorship (Just like North Korea - hey, > >maybe that is why Mr. Choi is welcome there!) where one individual >makes >all the calls. Sir, this comment was beneath you. > I don't know if this is the sole explanation for the difference in >the >number of high ranking masters, but is seems logical that it must >play at >least some part in it. I'd fear that unquestioning loyalty to >Mr. Choi >(Not something I have a problem with, BTW) may have more >influence on who >gets promoted to 7th dan and up, than other factors >do. Most Martial Art systems take loyalty to the Master as a serious part of promotion. The ITF believes General Choi founded Taekwon-Do therefore Taekwon-Do students should be loyal to him. I'm sure there are other factors for promotion as well. What good is a Master who can't teach? Who can't perform the techniques? It's not ALL just a numbers game (I hope). By the way, from the rest of yout post it DOES seem like you have a problem regarding "unquestioning loyalty" to Gen. Choi (see your Arlene Limas statement below). > Anyhow, I have seen some awesome technicians from the ITF side >about >20 years back. Because of the Olympic connection, and because >of it is >not run by a dictator, many of these people have since sought >and gained >affiliation under the WTF. Then again, the ITF does seem to be growing in recent years. Yes, yes, the WTF is still bigger but frankly who cares? I don't, I don't belong to either one. > Lastly, since the USTU is the Sole Representative of the WTF in > >America, it is important to mention that ANYONE can be a member of the > >USTU and any American Citizen may compete in its events -- right up to > >the Olympics. And if this sounds like a load of Bull, please consider > >Ms. Arlene Limas who was in Gungfu and an open tournament competitor >for >something like 19 years when she made the US (taekwondo) Team and >won the >Gold in Seoul in '88. Naturally she worked with a taekwondo >coach to >learn the rules and to gain experience under WTF rules, but I >don't think >she could have shown up to an official ITF event and have >expected to not >only be allowed to compete, but to actually be >awarded points for her techniques by judges who were all promoted >under a >dictatorial leadership. This comment doesn't make sense to me. Anyone can join the ITF, too right? The ITF & WTF both have the same limits in the sense that if you compete you play by their rules, which is only fair. To compete as a black belt in both organizations you have to be certified by them, right? Or can you compete in the USTU nationals and not be a Kukkiwon BB? Last I knew that was a requirement (according to my old teacher at Purdue). Whether or not Miss Limas could have done well at an ITF event remains to be seen. She's never competed at one that I know of. I don't know what "judges who were all promoted under a dictatorial leadership" has to do with anything. I've been to several USTU tournaments (in Indiana and Illinois) where "judges who were all promoted under a democratic leadership" (i.e., the WTF) made some pretty bad and biased calls. Anywho, no flames intended. Just my $0.02. Taekwon, Chris "Every experience of beauty points to infinity." Hans Urs von Balthasar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Robert Martin Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 15:43:01 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Dictatorship? Don't get me wrong, I personally feel that all those in TKD owe a ton to Gen. Choi for his efforts in the 1950s to early 1960s to pull the Kwans together. It took someone with his tremendous power and influence within the military and the government to do that. It was also his goal and dream to get TKD into the Olympics. Without his original vision, mission, and initial plans we may not have TKD in the Olympics today. But IMHO he should have been able to pass on the torch instead of insisting that he alone be the one to carry it forward into the future. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Gen. Choi has passed on his Taekwon-Do to the ITF's many international instructors (ITF 4th Dan and above, masters (ITF 7th Dan and above), and Grand Masters (ITF 9th Dan--I know - just 3!). He has taught many, many international instructors courses all around the world. The persons who take these courses teach the instructors under them who teach their students. He insists that we care Taekwon-Do into the future. At this point it is hard to say who will be Gen. Choi's successor as leader of the ITF. There have been rumors that he will retire during next years World Championships. Gen. Choi also had the vision to take Taekwon-Do international. While he considers the art Korean in nature, he truly means it to be international in scope. I doubt that anyone knows the real reasons that he left South Korea. The one fact that is known is that the climate was no longer the best for him. He had been a General in the army and ambassador to Malaysia under the previous regime. I am trying to track down information that I read that indicates that Gen. Choi returned to South Korea last year at the invitation of the South Korean president. Also, I heard that there are three ITF schools in South Korea. I will try to confirm these rumors and post an update. If this is true it is a significant development in the martial arts community. On another note: To me it appears the major difference between the ITF and WTF is that the ITF is Taekwon-Do and the WTF is a collection of Kwans of "different" styles under the name taekwondo. The ITF is unified by technique, spirit and attitude. The WTF appears to be unified (I may be wrong and if so I apologize) by the Olympics. Regards, Robert Martin PS. The biography of General Choi Hong Hi should be published in English very soon. It has been out in Korean for a bout a year. In addition he wrote a book on moral culture that should be very interesting. ------------------------------ From: "Atchinson, Kerry M" Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 16:40:10 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: forms competition > From: ChunjiDo@aol.com > Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 11:16:04 EDT > Subject: the_dojang: Re: forms competition > > In a message dated 4/28/00 7:09:02 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: > > << I have done to-the-letter traditional Hyungs and Katas, >> > > whose alphabet? :)....poomse/hyung/forms grading is so inconsistent its > scary. normally, a judge just looks for strong techniques and good flow of > > motion and in some instances, do not even know the form at which they are > looking. > Very true. I was judging poomse at a tourney last fall when a competitor (from my academy) performed a Palgue with a great deal of focus and strength, but also incredibly wrong. Not minor stuff, this guy turned the wrong way, performed the wrong moves, etc. He did enough right for me to recognize the form, though, and was respectable with regard to breathing, hand/foot technique, stances, ending position, etc. As it was I was the only judge in the ring with Palgue/Taeguk background, everyone else knew Hyung. So it was no surprise, really, that I scored him low and the other judges scored significantly higher. My score got tossed ( low out of 5 ) and he ended up in a tie requiring a "form-off". He still looked good, but he was still wrong in his moves and did it differently. We judges talked about it later and agreed it was unfortunate... they had to gloss over details when judging Palgue etc and I had to do the same when judging Hyung. What to do except have everyone do the same forms? Pretty dull world, that... Kerry WTF TKD P.S. Several of my classmates tested for and received their Dan-Bo rank recently, and deserve their names in print: So congrats again Cathy, Carlos, Charlie, Jackie, Carrie, Julia, and Francie! ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 15:17:37 PDT Subject: the_dojang: I'm sure I'll have no ITF friends after this one :) I'm sure I'll have no ITF friends after this one :) > This whole exile/communist argument is an anachronism. I believe this is also correct. Gen. Choi had to leave because (1) he refused to cease his attempt to completely control Taekwondo, and more importantly (2) given that he supported the old military government, he was out of favor with the new military government and thus lost all of his power and influence. > Also, Dr. Un Yong Kim is high up in the IOC, possibly the next President > after Samaranch retires. This probably has something to do with the WTF's > inclusion in the Olympics. Yes, that may in fact occur. But it is because of his 30 years of hard work and the organizational skills he demonstrated in getting TKD into the Olympics, not the other way around. IMHO > (As an aside: From what I've heard there's still some question as to whether > or not TKD will be permanent after 2000. Yes, that was in some question until about a year or so ago. It is no longer in question (to the best of my knowledge). On one other point, someone mentioned that if you were a member of the ITF you had to pay -only- $10 per year. Every year!?! Has to!?! I hope that is incorrect. Think about it. $10 per year X how many tens of thousands of people in the ITF? Wow! I've been with Kukki-TKD since 1976. Other than my WTF/Kukkiwon Dan fees, which are much lower than the ITF's, I don't know of another $1 that has gone to the Kukkiwon. I'm a life member of the USTU, I don't know if the WTF or Kukkiwon got a cut of that membership fee or not. I suspect not... ??? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: TKDSCRIBE@aol.com Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 19:31:32 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #284 In a message dated 4/27/00 4:14:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: > BTW I still produce the EARLY MASTERS OF TKD VIDEO from the mid 1960's. > Dear Sir, I am quite curious as to who appears in this video and what sort of activities are featured. How can one get a copy these days? SESilz ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 19:11:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [none] ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #292 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.