From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #294 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Sat, 29 April 2000 Vol 07 : Num 294 In this issue: the_dojang: Gen. Hong Hi Choi the_dojang: Grandmaster In Sun Seo the_dojang: KTA system the_dojang: My speculations the_dojang: re: promotions the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #293 the_dojang: Fund raiser, Master Clay the_dojang: : Can lower Dan holders promote others to BB? the_dojang: 4th Dan Test the_dojang: Koreans the_dojang: Re: who promotes whom the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #293 the_dojang: Re: Can lower Dan holders promote others to BB? the_dojang: masters [none] ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 940 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MichaelChoi@aol.com Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 12:18:49 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Gen. Hong Hi Choi With regards to Gen. Choi being a communist sympathizer and being a "no-no" in South Korea. Gen. Choi fought with the UN Forces against Kim Il-sung's armies including killing his own countrymen probably even from his own province. I don't think he would have fought the Communists if he didn't have an opinion of Communism. Second, one thing that Gen. Choi and ROK President Kim Dae-jung share is being persecuted by Chung-Hee Park and the ROK government. President Kim DJ is the Nelson Mandela of Asia. Kim DJ, A victim of political persecution who has suffered assassination attempts, prison, and a death sentence, he is now the president. He appreciates freedom and human liberty. As President, he has the authority to permit Gen. Choi into ROK and to ensure his safety from his enemies. Although I disagree with associating with such a repressive regime as Kim Jong-il's North Korea, I believe that Hong Hi Choi has every right to express his opinion and to travel to democratic nations as much as anyone else. Just as long as he does not use force to infringe on anyone else's human liberties. Sincerely, Michael Choi ------------------------------ From: MichaelChoi@aol.com Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 12:18:47 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Grandmaster In Sun Seo I have put some posts on the dojang digest on the various rumors regarding Grandmaster In Sun Seo. Oddly enough, I guess that I have somewhat of a "following" on the dojang digest. First of all, to everybody, I will be the first to admit. I am not a master or a grandmaster. I also never went to be in a policy setting position in a martial arts organization. I am not qualified (and I probably never will be). I will leave that gentlemen such as Grandmasters Jae-Han Ji, Kwang-sik Myung, Duk-kyu Hwang, In Sun Seo, Se-lim Oh, etc. I don't want my legacy to be that of Kim Jung-yun, former secretary general of the Kidohae. Although I am a Christian and a university graduate, I think it is not right for a junior practitioner to dominate the propagation and policies of a martial art when there are those who have much more expertise. I am a historian and a former banker. It's best that I stick with my field. In other words, "not quit my day job." Unfortunately, I think that I have let my youth get the better of me. (By the way, I'm 25.) All that I wrote regarding In Sun Seo were only speculations. Unfortunately, some may have joined the "bandwagon" only to add to Mr. Seo's woes. For that, I apologize to Mr. Steve Seo and Mr. In Sun Seo. It reflects a lack of discretion on my part. I will use more care in my postings. As a scholar, I only want to ask questions, find the truth, and keep Korean martial arts honest. There's too many unscrupulous instructors (Korean and non-Koreans) that take advantage of people through martial arts. As a strong believer in humility, there seems to be too much pride and one-upsmanship in the martial art community as well. I still have many questions with regards of Yong Sool Choi's and possible Han-jae Ji's influence on Kuk Sool and how it is reported by the Official Kuk Sool organizations. My personal conclusion is since the Republic of Korea is a politically and economically free nation (especially now that Kim Dae-jung is President), all martial art styles must compete against each other for business in order to make a living. As Taekwondo, Hapkido, Kumdo, Judo, Kuk Sool, Tuk Gong Moo Sool, Koong Joong Moo Sool, Hae Dong Kumdo, Sun Moo Do, Kuk Sun Do, et al must compete for domestic market share, each presents a glorified, embellished and altered history of their art. That's good for "business," but as a scholar, that sends a signal to me that the martial arts organizations do not respect the intelligence of people, since they won't be honest about their history. Sincerely, Michael Choi ------------------------------ From: MichaelChoi@aol.com Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 12:18:46 EDT Subject: the_dojang: KTA system With regards to titles in the Korea Taekwondo Association (member of WTF) standards... Part of the 4th dan test from Kukkiwon when testing in Korea is take a standardized test that tests the applicant on basic theory and instructorship. I think that 6th dan applicants submit a wrritten dissertation. But just because you hold 4th dan or 6th dan does not necesssarily imply that you are an instructor or a master instructor. Kukkiwon holds instructor training courses throughout the year. I think that one must be a graduate of this course in order to be a certified instructor. Along with a fourth dan rank, being a certified instructor is required by law to own a dojang in Republic of Korea. This is the bare minimum With regards to colleges, they are many two-year and four-year Taekwondo physical education programs in colleges. The most prominient programs are at Kyung Hee University and Yong In University. It's a lot like majoring in Kinesiology with a speciailization in Taekwondo. One takes courses classes in sports, sports medicine, biomechanics, instructor theory, etc. The college diploma, Kukkiwon dan ranks, and the Kukkiwon instructor course are all separate things, although interrelated. By the way, Hapkido is pretty much the same way. My teacher in Seoul graduated out of Hanguk Physical Education College but trained from white belt through 4th dan with his master. He said that there are two options to become a hapkido instructor: one go to physical education college while continuing training in Hapkido or go traini in your kwan (e.g., Jin Jung Kwan, Chun Do Kwan, Chun Moo Kwan). In the old days it wasn't like this, but the Korean Government is modernizing Korean martial arts in order to keep them viable and current. Sincerely, Michael Choi ------------------------------ From: MichaelChoi@aol.com Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 12:18:48 EDT Subject: the_dojang: My speculations Although discretion is needed, I do not think speculation is a bad thing. In the US, we have free speech that encourages thought, discussion, and development of various subject field. I do not think that we would know that the earth is round, the sun is the center of a planetary system, or matter contains equal to its specific mass multiplied by the square of the speed of light. Mr. Cushing, I agree that it is best to ask the source to find the answers to various questions, but what if the source has an incentive not to present the whole truth? I would have to go to other sources to corroborate their story. What if they have a vested interest to distort the truth? This makes it very hard to conduct research and to find the answers. In my opinion, it will be very hard to find the truth and the best we can ever come to is best educated, best research estimation of the actual history. Second, I have not contacted people directly because I do not know them. As a Korean American who has travelled to Korea almost ten times and has studied there, I know that one does not approach a person without having some relation in common. For example, I do not have a friend who knows Grandmaster In-Sun Seo who can set up a meeting for me with him. Therefore, I do not make contact. If I knew someone who knew him, then I would ask him if he could somehow arrange a discussion with him. As I am not that involved in martial arts, I do not have many contacts. So, I do not call up people, especially Koreans, and ask questions. Still, Mr. Cushing, thank you for your post. Mr. Seo and Mr. Cushing have pointed out that we should "practice what we preach" and show more discretion in our postings. Sincerely, Michael Choi ------------------------------ From: Oregfightingarts@aol.com Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 12:44:41 EDT Subject: the_dojang: re: promotions Alex, In many arts, the only way one can promote another to 1st dan is to be a 4th dan +. Others say that you cannot test anyone for the rank just below you (ie: 1st dan can only promote someone to 2nd gup). There are those that increase their degrees as they promote someone to their rank(ie: student attains 3rd dan, instructor gets bumped up to 4th dan...so long as the instructor is still better than the student). For many years, I had no 'master' to guide me, although now, I belong to an instructor association made up of many masters and instructors, who dont believe in the blind devotion that some masters require, but are willing to guide, mentor, and share their knowledge without 'strings'. For dan ranks, we promote by consensus, and testing. It is always a big event, and the candidate must demonstrate why they deserve the rank (pretty much a 1 man demo). I had been running my own school for 6 years as a 1st dan, when I promoted a student to that rank. I had my 1st dan(tkd) for 12 years at that point, and had attained dan rank in 2 other arts during those 12 years. A fellow instructor liked to call me the hightest ranking 1st degree he knew. I felt more than qualified to determine that the student was of BB quality. Once I joined the association, I was reviewed and it was suggested by the others that I test/promote to 3rd, which I did. I dont believe a whole lot in rank due to all the mcdojangs out there that give them away easy, but I do believe that the hard work that my students put forth should be rewarded. Whatever the system, if the instructor/master continues to train and learn, then promoting anyone should not be a problem....but I think for all of us, a student that finally surpasses us in ability and knowledge is the ultimate compliment. Train hard, train right, Mark Gajdostik ------------------------------ From: Oregfightingarts@aol.com Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 12:49:44 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #293 << Education and training is the answer...IMVHO...not ONE SET of patterns to be performed identically no matter what. That, in itself, eliminates the ART from the Martial Arts. My Opinion! The One and Only... Tink >> Absolutely...........virtual bow to Tink MG ------------------------------ From: Oregfightingarts@aol.com Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 12:57:24 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Fund raiser, Master Clay Master Clay, Let us know what is needed....common household items, clothing, etc. I will take note and send you whatever I can gather from myself, students and other dojangs....this type of thing has happened before, and the response was very good. Ready to help. Mark Gajdostik Oregon Fighting Arts ------------------------------ From: "Jere R. Hilland" Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 14:43:29 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: : Can lower Dan holders promote others to BB? Alex: Very good question. I think it depends on how you certify the yudanja. For example, you have to hold a Kukkiwon 4th dan to get any dan certificates from them. Who do you get your certificates from? That is the an important question. For example, I am a hapkido 5th dan, when I test a student - I get the dan certificate from my teacher, Master West (kidohae 8th dan). I am also a 4th dan in taekwondo and I offer my taekwondo students certificates from the dojang or the kukkiwon, depending on what they want. My taekwondo students seldom compete (as we are more concerned with technique practiced through application and forms rather than competition, our choice) so it is up to them if they want to spend the money. In my opinion, the answer to your question depends on your art, your organizational affiliation, your teacher, who you know, etc. Another example: recently, I asked Master Hodder (taekwondo 7th dan) to test one of my taekwondo 2nd dans for 3rd dan in the near future. I did not have to, but I have a lot of respect for him as a teacher and a practioner and it is my opinion that by having this individual, who he knows, test under him, it ads that much more credibiltiy to the students rank. Both the aforementioned gentlemen are on this group and neither came to me wanting to certifiy my students, I went to them. Maybe some day I will ask Master West and Master Booth to test a hapkido yudanja. You never know, but my main concern is practicing, rank is secondary and just not as important... Just the way I do things and my opinion. Jere http://homepages.go.com/~jrhilland/HapkiDojang.html <> ------------------------------ From: "Tomlinson, Michael E." Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 15:13:08 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: 4th Dan Test To everyone who congratulated me on my promotion just let me say thank you very much. To Harry, Mike M. and the rest of the Moo Ye Kwan group I want to give a special thank you, your congratulations and good words mean a great deal to me. Even though I didn't get my finger broke by Mike M, this time and my toes broke by the big red monster I still had a lot of fun and managed to tear my bicep muscle very early during the test and didn't find out what I had done until the next day at the emergency room. You don't have to be the manager at Radio Shack to figure out that when your bicep looks like a cartoon and is purple that maybe you should listen to your wife and go to the hospital. Something about black belt testing and my old body for some reason seem to have a conflict of interests. I also want to thank Master Nabors for going out of his way to construct a padded club that we named "the baby seal beater", and then having his students treat me like one!!! I wouldn't have wanted it any other way. My arm is getting much better and I have now switched back to wiping my rear with my right arm again!! If you have never tried it I suggest you wipe your rear with your left hand and arm for two weeks and see how you like it!! I managed to overflow the toilet twice because I kept wrapping my entire hand and part of my forearm with Charmin. Hey no pain no gain, and accidents happen. Especially when you do the kind of psychotic extra curricular activities that all of us on this message board are involved in. Thanks again guys. Michael Tomlinson ------------------------------ From: MichaelChoi@aol.com Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 15:29:34 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Koreans Food for thought. The Koreans are called the Asian Irish. Then there's the saying, "with the Chinese, you never know what they're thinking. With the Japanese, you sometimes know what they're thinking. With the Koreans, you always know what they're thinking." And, "if the West meet the Koreans first, they would have never coined the term inscrutable Asians." That'll probably give you some very general insight to Korean people. Sincerely, Michael Choi ------------------------------ From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 16:59:37 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: who promotes whom In a message dated 4/29/00 8:14:44 AM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << What degree of Black Belt must you be in order to promote others to black belt. >> it is my understanding that only fourth dan and up can promote in kukkiwon taekwondo. he may promote up to fourth dan. melinda ChunjiDo -pe rsonal homepage http://hometown.aol.com/chunjido/homehtmlindex.html www.Chajonshim.com Martial Arts Supply now featuring a shopping cart for your convenience! :) Paidforsurf.com - - Main - get paid 75cents/hr to surf the net...i do! Looking for enlightenment is like looking for a flashlight, when all you need the flashlight for is to find the flashlight. ------------------------------ From: CKCtaekwon@cs.com Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 20:28:14 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #293 In a message dated 4/29/00 10:15:34 AM Central Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << As a Black Belt and judge, you cannot score a person on YOUR interpretation of the form. Every Instructor teaches their interpretation to their students, resulting in variations of the techniques performed, timing, and direction of movement. Who are we to say that instructor's or competitor's interpretation is incorrect and deserves a lower score? The ART, the ESSENCE of the form, is interpretation. (OK this was a long route to get to the point ...sorry). >> Well said! Gary Pieratt New CKC Web Page ------------------------------ From: "Dana Vaillancourt" Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 18:16:58 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Can lower Dan holders promote others to BB? Typically in Taekwondo, at least WTF/KKW, you must be at least a 4th dan before you can promote an individual to 1st dan. Several years ago you could only promote to one rank below your own. Now, supposedly, you can promote to your own rank through the KKW. Dana > >From: "aparedes" >Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 20:01:01 -0700 >Subject: the_dojang: Can lower Dan holders promote others to BB? > >Hello All: > I have been reading the titles and ranks but instead of getting into >the >same subject, I'd like to ask this other question that comes to mind. What >degree of Black Belt must you be in order to promote others to black belt. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Tkdtiger@aol.com Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 22:03:03 EDT Subject: the_dojang: masters In a message dated 4/27/00 4:51:50 PM Central Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Or is that why WTF 4th dans have come to refer to themselves as masters to alleviate confusion? >> it is not that we call ourselves master - it is that we invariably end up being introduced as master - that's how I got my title - they just keep introducing me that way and i keep looking to see who they are talking about ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 19:32:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [none] ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #294 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.