From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #296 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Sun, 30 April 2000 Vol 07 : Num 296 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: Michael Choi and research/speculations the_dojang: Re: $10.00 a year the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #294 the_dojang: Re: Hong Hi Choi's "Generalhood" the_dojang: Dictatorship? the_dojang: Information the_dojang: RE: General Choi Hong Hi the_dojang: RE: ITF 9th Dans and ITF Dan Ranks/time in training the_dojang: Hapki Do Re: the_dojang: Dictatorship? Re: the_dojang: Hapki Do [none] ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 940 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Victor Cushing" Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 11:45:12 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Michael Choi and research/speculations First of all, there is plenty of room for asking questions and even challenging other's versions of the history of their art. I applaud Michael Choi's willingness to dig in and inquire thoroughly. I also have seen claims made that seem to strain the bounds of credibility, and we need some informed discussion to keep us all both sharp and honest. My only point, and frankly it was not aimed at Michael Choi, is that some members of the list seemed to jump rather quickly on GM SEO's reputation without slowing down to examine the situation more carefully. All that any of us can ask is that if questions arise as to our bona fides that the process include asking for details and substantiation as well as input generated from reliable sources before any charges are leveled that might hurt someone irreparably.....Enuff said. Vic Cushing ------------------------------ From: "Carl W" Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 10:22:38 MDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: $10.00 a year >From: Ray Terry >Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 15:17:37 PDT >On one other point, someone mentioned that if you were a member of >the ITF >you had to pay -only- $10 per year. Every year!?! Has to!?! >I hope that >is incorrect. Think about it. $10 per year X how many >tens of thousands >of people in the ITF? Wow! I've been with >Kukki-TKD since 1976. Other >than my WTF/Kukkiwon Dan fees, which are >much lower than the ITF's, I >don't know of another $1 that has gone >to the Kukkiwon. I'm a life member >of the USTU, I don't know if the >WTF or Kukkiwon got a cut of that >membership fee or not. >I suspect not... ??? > >Ray Terry I apoligize for not being clear on this issue. The mandatory $10.00 per year for black belts is paid to our provincial association (this would be equyivalent to your state organization). Other provincial and/or state associations, if any, decide their own rates, if any. I don't know how many ITF black belts there are in Alberta, but I would guess somewhere around 100. $10 x 100 = $1000.00 (Canadian! Which is just a bit more than $600.00 US). Unfortunately, the economic reality of producing and distributing newsletters, maintaining a www page and email addresses, holding meetings (as well as such democratic activities such as providing minutes, copies of motions, financial statements, etc), organizing tournaments and seminars, etc does require some sort of cash flow. $10.00 is a small price to pay for these services. I spend that much taking my daughters to the 7-11 for a slushie and treats. As we grow and prosper, perhaps we will find a way to fund the provincial association without having to require a membership fee. Carl W. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "Carl W" Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 11:03:06 MDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #294 MichaelChoi@aol.com wrote: >Second, one thing that Gen. Choi and ROK President Kim Dae-jung share >is >being persecuted by Chung-Hee Park and the ROK government. >President Kim >DJ is the Nelson Mandela of Asia. Kim DJ, A victim of >political >persecution who has suffered assassination attempts, >prison, and a death >sentence, he is now the president. He appreciates >freedom and human >liberty. As President, he has the authority to >permit Gen. Choi into ROK >and to ensure his safety from his enemies. > Mr. Choi: Do you know if there are, in fact, any charges outstanding against General Choi in the ROK? If so, what are they and, as well, are they left-overs from previous ROK regimes? Along the same lines, are there any other legalities that would currently prevent General Choi from entering the ROK? Lastly, would you know if the enemies of General Choi in the ROK would be other than individuals and\or organizations that find fault in the General for promoting non-state sanctioned Taekwon-Do, or a directly related issue? Thanks Carl W. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Anders Torvill Bjorvand Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 21:18:54 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Hong Hi Choi's "Generalhood" At 07:57 30/04/2000 -0700, you wrote: >As a self-described scholar and historian, perhaps you could >answer two questions which have apparently been neglected >in this discussion. First, which units did Hong Hi Choi command >during the Korean War and in which battles? Second, what is >his date of rank as a "General", which is a four-star rank in >the Army of the Republic of Korea, just as it is in the United >States Army? All ranks of "General" are most often commonly called General in a loose sense of the word. Hong Hi was either a one or two star general - I don't know the date. I.e. a Brigadier General or Major General, I believe you call it. Right? Sincerely, Anders Torvill Bjorvand ------------------------------ From: "Carl W" Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 13:46:31 MDT Subject: the_dojang: Dictatorship? >Well, Gen. Choi was very happy with a military dictatorship government when >it favored him and he freely used that clout to further his goals. >However, the next military dictatorship government did not favor him nearly >as much. Fortunately (which I believe) or unfortunately, the government and >others did not want TKD to become just another 'one man art'. Consider >what will happen to the ITF when Gen. Choi dies, or what will happen to Soo >Bahk Do when GM Hwang dies? Do you believe those styles will continue to be >as strong as they are now after the death of the single person that has >been in complete and total charge for ~50 years? > >This, to me, is the difference between a family art or a one-man art >(please excuse the gender bias) and an art that is organized to live far >longer than any one single person or even a family can. > >Don't get me wrong, I personally feel that all those in TKD owe a ton to >Gen. Choi for his efforts in the 1950s to early 1960s to pull the Kwans >together. It took someone with his tremendous power and influence within >the military and the government to do that. It was also his goal and dream >to get TKD into the Olympics. Without his original vision, mission, and >initial plans we may not have TKD in the Olympics today. But IMHO he >should have been able to pass on the torch instead of insisting that he >alone be the one to carry it forward into the future. > >Ray Terry I wonder if General Choi could have done anything other than continue to exert his leadership of Taekwon-Do? He had obviously worked hard for many years to both develop Taekwon-Do and to ensure its acceptance within the martial arts and political communities. Of course, and as you relate, it would take a powerful and influential person to accomplish what he did. That he would even attempt to realize these goals indicates the tremendous amount of dedication and commitment the General held for Taekwon-Do (which, as you also state, we should all be grateful for). With General Choi's exile (whether forced or chosen is not relevant to my point), I assume that he lost much of his power and authority, thus the ability to further cultivate TKD according to the visions and aspirations that he had so incredibly devoted himself to. I wouldn't even begin to think that I could get into the head of General Choi at this point in his life, but if it were me, being homeless and powerless, I would hang onto whatever gave me pride and made me strong. I would become even more committed to my cause. As well, given the tenets of integrity, preseverance, and indomitable spirit, I would realize that I had the opportunity to demonstrate faith in these principles. I would pursue my dream, with tenacity and without compromise. What other choice should I make? I wonder, without the benefit of hindsight, what other choices did General Choi have? A lesser person would not have accepted the challenges, and fought the battles, that the General has. And still, at the age of 81, he continues to conduct seminars, demonstrate techniques, and give of himself. Thus, General Choi has led his art to the status it presently enjoys (whether that status is more, less, better, or worse than other arts or styles is another issue that is irrelevant to my point). It is an art that is credible, effective, accepted, and practiced all over the world. General Choi has much to be proud of, as would any Founder or GM that has developed and matured their art. Mr. Terry, as there are those on this list that speak very highly of you while there are others of another list that despise you and have gone out of their way to discredit you and your efforts, you are well aware of the gratuitous and needless criticism, disparagement, and condemnation that 'leaders' are often subjected to. Your response, and\or that of your supporters, to the other list members respecting the charges being made by your accusers, has been to watch what transpires on this list and then decide the truth for ourselves. In other words, you are asking that people judge the legitimacy of this list in terms of its credibility, effectivness, acceptance, and participation. Does General Choi not deserve the same considerations? I have no idea how accurate I am in my atttempt to understand why General Choi has proceeded as he has. I hopefully will understand more once his biography is released in English. However, at the very least, I do attempt to appreciate his efforts in a context that is fair, and does not pre-judge him. And really, it may not even matter, for at the end of the day, it is a fact that his art continues to bring pride, confidence, accomplishment, skill, and happiness to its practitioners while giving greater credence to the martial arts community as a whole. Who can find fault and lay blame because of this? In any case, I do not agree with your points that General Choi has failed to "pass the torch", that the ITF style is a "one-man art", and that the ITF can't possibly survive General Choi. However, I do respect your comments and arguments, as you have stated them. However, to call General Choi a dictator and the ITF a dictatorship is absolutely unwarranted and decidedly malicious. IMHO, it ignores the origins and history of Taekwon-Do; fails to recognize the contributions of General Choi to Taekwon-Do (irregardless of style or organization) as well as the martial arts in general; and serves as a disguised attempt to discredit General Choi and the ITF in favour of another style, GM, or organization (and as has said before, arguments of my style vs your style are better left for the sandbox or playground). Maybe I should simply apoligize for allowing myself to be baited into such a discussion. On the other hand, the words of Mr. Steve Seo, albeit posted for a different thread, ring true. I apoligize to Mr. Seo, and the list, if I use his words inappropriately and\or out of context. Steve Seo wrote... "... those who make comments that may defame another person must be accountable for their statements. It saddens me that a community that prides itself for its honor and integrity could act so irresponsibly. ... The only conclusion I can come to is that there are individuals who are either unable or unwilling to act as true martial artists… ... To blindly ... make uninformed, at times untastefully sardonic remarks ... is wrong. ... the greatest virtue of martial arts is that it can help us be better people. Central to the goal is the pursuit of the truth. Historical truth, truth in our art or any other kind... ... I entreat those who really care about the martial arts to be accountable for their actions. We are martial artists and we must hold ourselves to the highest standards... ". Thank you. Sorry for rambling on, and on, and on… Carl W. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "Tomlinson, Michael E." Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 16:22:32 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Information Mr. Seo, My name is Michael Tomlinson and I recently posted some words on the message boards that sounded like it offended you. First of all let me state that I meant no disrespect to you or your family. Let me also give you some background on some of my motivations for jumping on the bandwagon so to speak. I have been practicing Hapkido for quite a few years and I personally love my art very much, as I am sure you love Kuk Sool. We in the Hapkido world have seen quite of few might I say less than honorable people pass through our ranks for years now. During this time the history, belt rankings, and things of this sort seem to get bent and molded to fit the "financial goals" of some of these people. When I read the article that was posted and then saw what organization it was coming from I got quite frustrated. I teach Hapkido but this is not my primary means of providing for my family. I am a school teacher by trade. One of the lessons I always try to teach my students during school is to question facts and assumptions as they come. Being able to question and debate issues is a luxury that we have in this country that was won on the battlefield by many of our ancestors. You stated that in the old days what I wrote would be considered a challenge, well let me state that we don't live in the old days or in the Kung Fu movies either. I understand your wanting to uphold your family name and respect for your father, that is very admirable, and I respect that. I feel the same way about my father. My father spent 8 years of his life in South Korea during the 1950's. He fought in the Korean War and still has problems with his feet that were damaged from frostbite while he was fighting in North Korea. He has always spoke very highly of the South Korean people and took me to my first Korean Martial Arts Dojang in 1969 to take lessons. As a fellow Martial Artist I would hope that you would see our plight in the Hapkido world these days. Personally I don't agree with the fact that someone can practice a martial art like Hapkido for approximately 10 years and end up as an 8th dan. Let me state that I am not envious of this, or jealous in any way. In my opinion, when someone is allowed to do this through what ever organization then it actually dishonors all of the people that have put in decades of practice and strife to make our art better. What do I tell my Hapkido students when they ask me about such events? Do I tell them that this is ok. to do? Again, this is a free country and people are allowed to do whatever they want. We as Americans also have the right to state our opinion on these issues. Let me again state that I still do not believe in coincidence and if I were in your shoes I would probably also be questioning the reporter that wrote these untruths, and also the people that felt a need to post such articles with full knowledge that this would get quite a few people up in arms about such facts. Again let me state that I meant no disrespect to your family and I will go back to pulling weeds in my own backyard. Respectfully, Michael Tomlinson ------------------------------ From: Robert Martin Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 14:54:34 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: General Choi Hong Hi From: "Joseph F. Connolly, II" Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 09:17:19 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: General Hong Hi Choi On Saturday, 29 Apr 2000, Michael Choi wrote: "With regards to Gen. Choi being a communist sympathizer and being a "no-no" in South Korea. Gen. Choi fought with the UN Forces against Kim Il-sung's armies including killing his own countrymen probably even from his own province. I don't think he would have fought the Communists if he didn't have an opinion of Communism." As a self-described scholar and historian, perhaps you could answer two questions which have apparently been neglected in this discussion. First, which units did Hong Hi Choi command during the Korean War and in which battles? Second, what is his date of rank as a "General", which is a four-star rank in the Army of the Republic of Korea, just as it is in the United States Army? Joseph F. Connolly, II I cant give you the full details of Gen. Choi's military career here as it would take to long. I also can't give you what battles he was involved with as I don't know what battles these units were involved in (at least not year - - got to continue reading some history). Here is a brief look. (BTW I was under the impression that in the US a single star made one a General. Maybe some of our former military folks can answer that.) January 1946 Choi was commissioned as a second lieutenant in the new Korean army. Company commander in Kwang-Ju. Soon after promoted to 1st lieutenant and transferred to Tae Jon in charge of the second Infantry Regiment. Choi was promoted to captain in 1947 and then major. In 1948 he was transferred to Seoul as the head of logistics and promoted to lieutenant colonel. In 1949 Choi was promoted to full colonel. In 1951 Choi was promoted to brigadier general. At the same time he organized the Ground General School in Pusan as Assistant Commandant and Chief of the Academic Department. In 1952 Choi was appointed as Chief of Staff of the First Corps. At the time of the armistice Choi was in command of the 5th Infantry Division. In 1953 he organized the 29th Infantry Division at Cheju Island. In 1954 Choi was promoted to major general. In 1959 was made deputy commander of the 2nd Army in Tae Gu. In 1962 Choi as appointed Ambassador to Malaysia. That pretty much lists Gen. Choi's military career. Regards, Robert Martin ------------------------------ From: Robert Martin Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 15:41:21 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: ITF 9th Dans and ITF Dan Ranks/time in training From: TKDSCRIBE@aol.com Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 03:10:55 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #285 In a message dated 4/26/00 10:03:42 PM Mountain Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << So, yes, technically, we have 3 9th Dans: GM Rhee, Ki Ha; GM Hwang, Kwang Sung; GM Charles E. Serif. >> BTW, Is this in the US, or is it a worldwide total? SES There are 3 ITF Grand Masters world wide. They are GM Rhee, Ki Ha; GM Hwang Kwang Sung and GM Charles E. Sereff. There are many masters. In the ITF the following are ranks of black belt and time in training: 1st to 3rd Dan is novice black belt 1st degree can teach up to 5th gup 2nd degree can teach up to 3rd gup 3rd degree can teach up to 1st gup 4th to 6th Dan is expert black belt 4th Dans can promote to 1st Dan but certificates are awarded by the ITF. 7th Dan is Master black belt 8th Dan is Master 9th Dan is Grand Master black belt Dan Requirements for the ITF (NGB's may adjust slightly but ITF certificates won't be issued unless the following are met:) It takes approximately 3 years to achieve 1st Dan black belt. Testing for 2nd Dan requires a minimum of 18 months active training as a 1st Dan and the student must be at least 14 1/2 years old. Testing for 3rd Dan requires a minimum of 30 months active training as a 2nd Dan and the student must be at least 17 1/2 years old. Testing for 4th Dan requires a minimum of 42 months active training as a 3rd Dan and the student must be at least 19 1/2 years old. Testing for 5th Dan requires a minimum of 48 months active training as a 4th Dan. Testing for 6th Dan requires a minimum of 60 months active training as a 5th Dan. Testing for 7th Dan (Master) requires a minimum of 72 months of active training as a 6th Dan. 8th Dan is awarded by the federation. 9th Dan (Grand Master) is awarded by the federation in recognition of contributions to the art. From this you can see that the soonest a person can become an ITF Master is 22 1/2 years after reaching first Dan and the youngest age would be about 43 years old. Regards Robert Martin ------------------------------ From: "kadin goldberg" Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 16:46:57 MDT Subject: the_dojang: Hapki Do Hi, I was just hoping i could get some info on HapkiDo, There is a guy in my town that is now teaching it and it is my only chance to get into martial arts... what do ya think? thanks, Kadin ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 16:12:52 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: Dictatorship? > > Does General Choi not deserve the same considerations? > As I have said many times in the past, as I have said in this very thread, and as I'll say again now and I'm sure yet again in the future... IMHO, All Taekwondoin owe a lot to Gen. Choi's efforts. My comments are only an attempt to share my research and my understanding of what happened wrt Gen. Choi, TKD, and the SK government in the 1950s, 60s, and 70s, up until today. I NEVER ever claim that what I say cannot be in error, however great or small. God I am not... :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 16:14:10 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: Hapki Do > Hi, I was just hoping i could get some info on HapkiDo, There is a guy in my > town that is now teaching it and it is my only chance to get into martial > arts... what do ya think? Yes, I think we have several dozen folks here than can share a great deal of info with you on the art of HapKiDo. Ask away... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 15:58:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [none] ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #296 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.