From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #297 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Mon, 1 May 2000 Vol 07 : Num 297 In this issue: the_dojang: Michael Choi the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #296 the_dojang: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #296 the_dojang: BB Promotions the_dojang: Competition Policy the_dojang: General Choi a dictator??? Do your research!!! the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #296 the_dojang: Expensive $10 per annum ITF memberships - response the_dojang: Hapkido the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #296 the_dojang: Re: Dictatorship? the_dojang: US Military Ranks/ ITF Grand Masters the_dojang: History the_dojang: Re: Master J.R. West Hapkido Seminar= 29 April 2000 Re: the_dojang: more on General Choi [none] ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 940 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Moja Kwan - C. Richards" Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 21:18:09 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Michael Choi Dear Michael, Keep up the good posts! I'd like to echo Ken McD's words and add. If you don't bring up something that starts a dialogue, what's the point of this list? What is important is that, like yourself, we all remain respectful of others views and grow to our own opinions..(IMVHO) Yours in training, Charles Richards Moja Kwan TSD ------------------------------ From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 21:28:34 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #296 In a message dated 4/30/00 4:09:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << The mandatory $10.00 per year for black belts is paid to our provincial association (this would be equyivalent to your state organization). Other provincial and/or state associations, if any, decide their own rates, if any. >> Our Black Belts pay $30 a year to the U.S.K.A. Organization. So $10 is not a large fee at all. Illona ------------------------------ From: "Joseph F. Connolly, II" Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 21:42:32 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #296 My appreciation to Messrs. Anders Torvill Bjorvand and Robert Martin for the information on Hong Hi Choi. The summary of Choi's military career is particularly helpful. I learned that Choi was commissioned in 1946 and by 1962 had either retired, resigned, or been removed. That indicates a maximum ROK military career of 16 years, most probably 15 years, a very short career for a general officer. I was aware that Choi served as the Chief of Staff of the 1st ROK Corps. A Corps is a combat formation, but the Corps Headquarters remains a headquarters, in the rear, and the Chief of Staff is a staff officer. The Commander of 1st Corps, when Choi served on is staff, went on to command a U.S. Corps. He was the only Korean, and one of the very, very few foreign officers ever to do so. Perhaps Michael Choi, to whom I addressed the question, can yet provide an answer as to what units Hong Hi Choi commanded during the Korean War and in what battles? Messrs. Bjorvand and Martin did provide an answer to my second question, which I sincerely appreciate. Hong Hi Choi was a Major General. Bjorvand adds "All ranks of "General" are most often commonly called General in a loose sense of the word.", while Moore adds "BTW I was under the impression that in the US a single star made one a General." A single star does make an individual a flag officer and it makes an individual a General Officer, but it does not make one a General, even in the loosest sense of the word. Officers are divided into three general categories: company grade, field grade, and general officer grade. The two grades of Lieutenant and the grade of Captain are "company grades", i.e. those found at the company-level. Majors and the two grades of Colonel are "field grade" officers. Army officers entitled to a personal flag are officers of general grade. There are five grades of general officers. Just as no naval Lieutenant Commander would ever introduce himself as "Commander", no General Officer below four-star rank would ever introduce himself as "General" nor allow himself to be introduced as such. It is simply not done. Based upon the information supplied by Messrs. Bjorvand and Moore, Hong Hi Choi should be introduced as "Major General Choi". Only when speaking directly to him would he be called "General Choi", should he desire to be addressed by his military rank. There are two additional promotions required before a Major General becomes a General. In the military ethic, one does not pretend to rank one does not hold. It is important therefore, out of respect for the individual involved, to insure that an officer's rank is properly represented whenever it is used. While these nuances of military custom and courtesy may seem unimportant to the civilian, please consider that it is the holder of the military title of that holds himself to the values of his former profession, by his election to use his military title. I look forward to receiving the additional information which I am sure will be forthcoming. ------------------------------ From: "Moja Kwan - C. Richards" Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 21:53:50 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: BB Promotions Dear all, This topic is very close to my heart as I have considered *going independent*, and a few of the non-TSD/non-Korean instructors affiliations. One of my contemporaries explained it this way. Even if I hold myself out as self appointed GM, If I don't train, and thus grow, my art would *die*. Therefore you should have a mentor. As a 3rd Dan in TSD, I would feel comfortable promoting a student of some years to Cho Dan (maybe in 4 years or so I'll get the chance), and if I were an *independent*, I might even consider promoting to one rank less than myself. Of course, If I never test (grow) then I'd be limiting my school to 2nd Dan. Again, here a senior mentor can provide *credibility* to your senior Dan's *certificates*, but more importantly guidance, and at the appropriate time Dan grading. As Mr. Terry said, it varies from organization to organization. In my former organization, Dan exams were standardized, conducted on a regional level, and needed the GM's permission for a non-Master to conduct the exam. In rare occasions were a 3rd Dan would have been the Simsa Kwan Nim, a nearby Master would travel in to test 3rd Dan candidates. All Masters promotions were made by the GM personally. Overall this is a good system, and generally pretty fair. It also eludes to some guidance. The head examiner, should be at least one rank higher than the highest rank pursued, and generally a Master or Senior 3rd Dan should be the Chief examiner at Blackbelt gradings. {Soap Box on} I do have a concern with *self-promotions*, or a group of say 2nd through 5th Dans in different art forms ending up as 7th through 10th Dan by *bumping* themselves up whenever a student approaches their rank. I believe (IMVHO) that someone of a higher rank in your art form or somewhat similar art form should certify a Dan promotion. For example I would take issue with say a 4th Dan in TSD being awarded by a Gung Fu Sifu, and vice versa. I could see some interplay between say TSD/TKD or HKD/KSW/HRD, but what do I know? My respect to your self claimed (or verified) title is always what you tell me it is, my respect for the actual practitioner can only be earned once we have *shared a mat*, or you've been on the mat with someone I respect (IMVHO). {Soap Box off} My mantra, of course I hope everyone is using what works for their school. I have found a *home* in the USKMF under the mentorship of GM West (8th Dan Kidohae). Whatever rank I am able to achieve, I am comfortable that none of my students will reach a glass ceiling, because of my limited rank or knowledge. Keep Jung Do in your hearts The rest is commentary Charles Richards Moja Kwan TSD ------------------------------ From: Cookson Family Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 23:36:52 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Competition Policy For the past several years, we have invoked a competition sparring policy (admittedly inconsistently) by which the lower belt student bows out in deference to the higher belt student to avoid conflicts. We have allowed such competition in qualifying events and championships (state or national). We have the greatest variation in inforcing this policy when adult or teenage students are involved (we allow them or their parents input into the decision). This weekend, two teenage students from our school competed in a WTF style sparring match at a qualifiying event for national tournaments. Both students know each other well and are very friendly. Regardless of the result of their match, both students would have qualified for the right to compete at the national event. Unfortunately, one student (the match winner) went down after the match as a result of head trauma. She went into seizure and was taken to a local hospital. She returned several hours later with a clean bill-of-health from the neurologist. In our eyes, she and we were lucky...the results could have been much more serious. This has caused us to consider (reconsider?) our policy on intra-school competition where little or nothing is on the line (let's face it, they both could continue to compete at the next level). A question to all instructors/owners: what is your policy regarding competitors from the same school when participating in a tournament? At a tournament, should we consider all students on an equal playing field and let them compete? Should familiarity and school unity be a consideration? We are seeking your thoughts because of the following limits on our experience... 1) we have owned our school for just 2.5 years 2) our senior instructor is a young man of 24 who appreciates others' experience and input 3) this is the first VERY serious injury that we have encountered in competition Melody Cookson (Director) and Bob Cookson East Coast TKD, Georgia ------------------------------ From: danny alberts Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 22:10:06 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: General Choi a dictator??? Do your research!!! I have been trying to send this message without success for a little time now, but it seems others have started joining in and defending General Choi with some credible information. But here goes my attempt: First of all, announcing my politics, I either have been or am currently a student of the following ITF instructors: GrandMaster Chuck Sereff IX, GrandMaster Han Cha Kyo IX, GrandMaster Hwang, Kwang Sung IX, Mr. Rhone VI, Mr. Steffen IV, and many other extraordinary ITF now-masters (6th Dan+). Additionally I have trained with the other folks, including GrandMaster Jhoon Rhee IX, Dennis Lahey VI, Ray Amanat III, Herb Johnson VII (founder of Shori-Gojo Ryu)-all while living in their geographical areas as I moved about the country (ITF not prevalent everywhere). My point in introducing this information is to try to indicate that I have been around, and have been exposed to lots of different information, points of view, and politics throughout my humble career. I bring this up because I consistently see a lot of incorrect information written regarding the Taekwon-Do art - whether or not intentionally biased. Now, I will be the first to admit that I might be predjudiced by incorrect information fed to me through my instructors or those in-the-know. However, I also do my own research and carefully try to reconcile people's statements with other people's statements - for 25 years now. I would like to make a few correctional comments to recent writings that others will take with a little more credibility than "well, I heard that ...". First of all, it is incorrect for anyone to call General Choi a dictator. BTW: The proper and respectful way to address him is General Choi, Hong Hi, *not* General Hong Hi Choi, or as some historians have decided to rename him has General Hi. He is anything but a dictator. He is a man who has experienced a lot of pain in his life and has devoted his life to turning these experiences into growth for the world. (Hear me out - this is not religious propaganda.) Can you imagine growing up in a country that is occupied by foreign forces to the extent that you are ridiculed, must surrender your birth name in lieu of taking on a Japanese name - just to go to school, or get into libraries or food stores? Can you imagine growing up in a country where the hard history of your ancestory is being systematically destroyed, and where you are told you are second class to the occupiers? How about watching your young countrymen and women being beaten senseless by foreign occupiers with weapons only because they happen to be of Korean descent. ?How about spending time in a prison, sentenced to death, just because you were planning on regaining a little bit of your own country - the place where you were born, from the foreigners who took it from you along with your name, property, and who knows what else? I've got to tell you folks that I would be frustrated and angered beyond all my current earthly experiences if a foreign occupier came into my country, took away my name and right to education, forced me into their own army in order to fight forces that were trying to liberate me and my countrymen. This is exactly what the Japanese were doing to Koreans. Of course it took 38 years (on paper) to throw out the occupiers, but in reality much longer. In fact, many Koreans still bear hatred toward Japanese (and vice versa) - similar to perhaps our own former presidential candidate does toward the Vietnamese. Early Koreans who left Korea to try to attain international support in opposition to the Japanese occupation split between the communist style of government and the "western democratic" method. Coming to a head in 1945 after WWII, Korea was literally divided as the spoils of war into North and South Korea. Once again the Koreans themselves had less than full say-so about how they wanted to live in their own country. General Choi and many of his students are from an area that is now inside North Korea. This does not make him a communist or a dictator. In fact, General Choi went to South Korea and even commanded US troups during the Korean conflict (ok war) under and along with General McArthur. General Choi, as I think everybody knows, took his knowledge of Shotokan, of which he was a 2nd Degree, and other martial arts exposure including Tang Soo, Gung Fu, Taekyon, Judo (or Yudo), and spec- ifically set out to mold it, with other Koreans who believed in his ideal, to be a martial art of Korean origin. An art he could introduce to the world in order to get the world's respect for Korea as a nation. In the past, Korea was able to be invaded repeatedly because other nations just turned their eyes away. Russia backed out of Korea at the turn of the century, China, although helpful in past centuries, had their own problems with the Japanese, and the US and other European countries were being ostriches. I agree, lots of debate about who developed the intial TKD style - Koreans even continued to call it Shotokan until the late '50's - a generic term they used for martial arts. But remember, they were prohibited from practicing their martial arts when the Japanese occupation began. The only martial arts they practiced were what they were taught by the Japanese, being Shotokan. Many times, the Koreans secretly practiced their own heritage of martial arts and publically called it Shotokan. The General had a specific goal to make something different than the Japanese art of Shotokan. Ok, some call it Tang-Soo Do - at least early on. But there should be no doubt that the General and his followers did succeed in developing something different entirely from either Tang-Soo, Shotokan, or even Taekyon. This he named Taekwon-Do. - - He introduced his Chang-Hon system of patterns which he properly calls Tuls - not Hyungs or poomse as many non-ITFers call them. - - These Tuls are so good that they were still being used in WTF schools in the late 1980's, and are still being 'bastardized' by many US-homegrown TKD stylists in my city. - - He developed something very distinctive for his Taekwon-Do art, called the sine-wave. This method of generating power in punching and kicking techniques is totally different than Japanese systems, and intentionally so - to be different than the Japanese. This is important. I hate to say it readers, as I too have received several years in American offshoot schools calling themselves Taekwon-Do schools - but unless they are ITF-taught - they are really hybrids of Taekwon-Do patterns and kicks combined with Japanese power philosophies, and of course, high-ego American instructors own additions. (of course this will lead to another thread). - - He set out on a mission to introduce the art to the world to 1) increase knowledge and visibility of the Korean culture; 2) emphasize the 'Do' - self improvement - so that hopefully as different peoples from different lands learned something that they could hold in common, based upon some common moral culture, we could build a world with less confrontation. - - The Japanese did *not* willingly do this with their martial arts. After the unconditional surrender, the Japanese were reorganized and various instructors were brought to American bases in Japan initially, then even into the United States to teach American troops these arts. The original instruction was done, with some hostility at the very least. I am glad I was not an American serviceman, on the end of some of the punches and kicks when the Japanese instructor said "oops!!!" Please note, the General still refers to his art as Taekwon-Do, not Taekwondo. 'Do' may literally translate into 'the way', but its meaning differs quite markedly. It means a way to self improvement through the hard physical training associated with ... I humbly submit I attained a 2nd Dan from one of these hybrid schools - so I slap my hands also - If a man and his followers develop something that they call Taekwon-Do, and we take it and do it very differently, should we really be calling it Taekwon-Do? When we judge in tournaments and we decide that the Taekwon-Do Tuls we do, although different than what the General designed, are better than even he could do them, then we are indeed what he calls imitators with little conscience. (ok, now I have 700 thousand angry students and instructors sending me email and shattering my house apart). Of course there is a very famous American martial artist and historian with the initals J.C. who has stated that the Americans have taken the various martial arts from China, Japan, Korea, and wherever else, and have not only made them uniquely American, but also much better than the original. IMHO this is pure arrogance. I do not consider myself much of a historian, but then, unlike J.C., I do know that it is improper to refer to General Choi as General Hi. The General not being welcome in South Korea? Well of course. Self- imposed exile is the reason. The man who became president of South Korea, Park, Chung Hee was a political enemy. General Choi had earlier sentenced Park to death while sitting as a judge as Park's court martial for staging an insurrection against the Korean government after the Japanese liberation. Who is right or not is a question of politics? But pure and simple, General Choi was not a very welcome person in South Korea after Park took over. And by all US standards - looking at what makes a dictator - It was Park - the South Korean government which was a dictatorship. Come on folks - don't get programmed by US propaganda merely because we have troops in South Korea to prevent the insurgency by communists. South Korea was not a democracy by any use of the word - not even a Republic. It still is neither. General Choi gained further ire of the South Koreans when he returned to South Korea first, and then went on to North Korea, to do his Good- will tour in 1982. As told to me by one of the GrandMasters I mentioned above, there could easily have been blood drawn by the South Korean Generals when General Choi's delegation went ahead with his tour. They felt betrayed that the General would even visit North Korea, after he had fought against them. General Choi's Goodwill tour was not considered good-will by the South Koreans. As a consequence of this tour, General Choi and many of his loyal countrymen are now mostly persona non- grata in their homeland (Korea) in what is now South Korea, yet unwilling to live in the area of which they grew up (North Korea). In my mind, this is quite appalling - but a devastating fact of their lives. My own opinions about whether the General would be arrested if he returned home differ from others in this group. I do not think he would, at least not right away. But South Korea is *not* a democracy. Remembering this and the extreme politics regarding Taekwondo engaged by the government, I believe the General would be arrested, punished, or otherwise santioned as soon as the General would begin promoting Taekwon-Do in his manner, which as been against the interests of the South Korean government all along. Keep in mind (and if you did not know), when Park, Chung Hee was in control, he kidnapped the General's son and daughter and threatened their lives if General Choi did not return to South Korea from Canada. The ransom threat proved to be a political bust - but keep in mind - we are talking about a different land and people who do things differently than our sanitized US. And we too are filled every day with self-serving US propaganda. We would never do *anything* like kidnap or assassin- ation in this country :> This whole WTF/ITF/other style thing is, IMHO, purely political - to see who will control Taekwon-Do. The General says over and over that although he is the President of ITF and the original President and Founder of the Taekwon-Do federation, Taekwon-Do is a World-martial art. The South Korean government insists (initially by Park himself), that Taekwondo (note the difference in spelling) is the Korean martial art that they willingly share with the rest of the world (meaning us). This does not even makes sense in my mind, but if you don't believe this statement, then find some video of the competitions held in South Korea during the 1988 Olympics (it was still a demonstration event). The judging was very skewed and you could have sent in South Korean hamsters with black belts on because South Korea was going to win the events in any case, IMHO (ok, perhaps it seems I am throwing some darts here - but check it out yourselves - seriously). Also, what is this I hear about WTF takes anybody, even in competitions, but the ITF does not? Baloney. My non-ITF 2nd Dan was good enough to get me into an ITF 3rd Dan, and the world competition held in India as both a coach and referree. As I understand it, I could not even enter a WTF national trial tournament unless I had a WTF black belt ID with number. Seems that the rules are pretty much the same between the two. I don't ask for flames - although I am sure my monitor will burn up shortly after I send this. What I do ask for is that people quit spreading rhetorical innuendo and ask legitimate questions and do their own credible research. Then you may state your opinions with some credible backing. Comments like, "I heard that the ITF does this, and I don't know if it is true, but it is despicable if it is", (you can substitute WTF or anything else you like) - is worth far less than the $0.02 that people sign with. If you want to find out if an organization does something, then just ask the question. Conjecturing on incomplete information in a manner that others will accept it as fact only obfuscates all of the relevant history even more. Ok, enough - I better change ISPs and email addresses - perhaps even my real name, phone number, and home address after I send this. humble reader (i really am), danny alberts (and my apologies to my instructors, in advance, if any of the darts come your way) P.S. - To provide accurate information to a couple of other questions/ comments made in the group about General Choi - he is and was not a 4-star General. He retired as a 2-star General. Yes, he indeed did fight against the communist regime in North Korea - he himself does not consider himself North Korean or a communist, and just because he came from the part of Korea that is now North Korea does not make him a communist or a dictator. This would be like saying that anybody who lives in Alabama is still pro-slavery. According to GM Hwang, they consider themselves Korean. I recently had a student who sent me an excerpt from a web page that says that Grand Master Park Jung Tae, GTF, founded Taekwon-Do and the Chang-Hon system (Chon-Ji through Tong-Il). Again people, do your research - you should be able to weed this one out easily. In Korea, pennames are given to scholars, philosophers, and artists. General Choi's penname is and has been Chang-Hon - referring to the blue cottage in which he grew up. He provided the name to the system of patterns he developed. Why advocates of rewriting history would not recognize that the Chang-Hon system was named after the real founder, and apply the name in a meaningless way to another person puzzles me, since the statement is so easily debunked. Furthermore, if my research is correct, GrandMaster Park started studying Taekwon-Do at age 12 in 1256. If he had developed the Chang-Hon patterns, he would have developed the first 20 in only his first 10 years of studying the art - by 1966. Again, most people would easily debunk these claims, yet these claims are still being made and passed around. Unless y'all totally dispute my own research, then lets try this again with some more accurate dialog, please. Cheers- Danny Alberts ------------------------------ From: "Rodney G. Graves" Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 21:05:31 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #296 >Hi, I was just hoping i could get some info on HapkiDo, There is a guy in my >town that is now teaching it and it is my only chance to get into martial >arts... what do ya think? > >thanks, >Kadin Miss Goldberg, With most of the martial arts I believe you will find what matters most is the master under whom you study. As regards Hapkido, It is the art which I study, and I was fortunate enough to do so under an exceptional master (Alan A. Banks III) in a small club environment in Seoul. My experience has been outstanding. I have gone out of my way to continue in the art since returning to the United States. One thing you do need to know is that Hapkido is demanding. You will spend a lot of time learning how to fall without injury, and a lot of time in the air after learning to fall safely. You will also get to spend a fair amount of time launching your fellow students. Hapkido is a complete art, with joint locks and throws from Aiki-Jujitsu, and the strikes and kicks of Taekwondo. I find myself physically exhausted and mentally at peace after a good strong session. V/R Rod Il Dan, Hapkido ------------------------------ From: danny alberts Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 22:11:35 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Expensive $10 per annum ITF memberships - response > From: Ray Terry > Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 15:17:37 PDT > Subject: the_dojang: I'm sure I'll have no ITF friends after this one :) > > I'm sure I'll have no ITF friends after this one :) > > > > On one other point, someone mentioned that if you were a member of the ITF > you had to pay -only- $10 per year. Every year!?! Has to!?! I hope that is > incorrect. Think about it. $10 per year X how many tens of thousands of > people in the ITF? Wow! I've been with Kukki-TKD since 1976. Other than my > WTF/Kukkiwon Dan fees, which are much lower than the ITF's, I don't know of > another $1 that has gone to the Kukkiwon. I'm a life member of the USTU, I > don't know if the WTF or Kukkiwon got a cut of that membership fee or not. > I suspect not... ??? ITF lifetime membership - $10 - is only good for one year if that is all you use it for. Also good for 80 years or more, if that is what you use it for. So for me, mine has cost less than $0.38 per year. Not bad for the benefits I have received. I have never responded to this group before, but I cease to be amazed by how much speculation and inaccurate information gets written as rhetoric (I am not talking only about ITF, I have experience in several areas). Perhaps realistic questions would be more appropriate then rhetorical innuendo. humbly submitted in hopes of improving information flow. - - one of your readers who would prefer not to get flamed over this one. Danny Alberts ------------------------------ From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 00:47:11 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Hapkido << Hi, I was just hoping i could get some info on HapkiDo, There is a guy in my town that is now teaching it and it is my only chance to get into martial arts... what do ya think? thanks, Kadin >> Kadin, I shared a bit about Hapkido with you a while ago, what else do you want to know? Who is teaching in your town? Alain ------------------------------ From: Beungood@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 01:45:53 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #296 In a message dated 4/30/00 7:10:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << : "kadin goldberg" Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 16:46:57 MDT Subject: the_dojang: Hapki Do Hi, I was just hoping i could get some info on HapkiDo, There is a guy in my town that is now teaching it and it is my only chance to get into martial arts... what do ya think? thanks, Kadi >> Kadi, Where do you live and what is the instructor's name? Maybe some of the Hapkido masters we have on the list could help you. Jack ------------------------------ From: Anders Torvill Bjorvand Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 11:06:56 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Dictatorship? >Carl W. wrote: Mr. Terry, as there are those on this list that speak very >highly of you >while there are others of another list that despise you and have gone out of >their way to discredit you and your efforts, you are well aware of the >gratuitous and needless criticism, disparagement, and condemnation that >'leaders' are often subjected to. Your response, and\or that of your >supporters, to the other list members respecting the charges being made by >your accusers, has been to watch what transpires on this list and then >decide the truth for ourselves. In other words, you are asking that people >judge the legitimacy of this list in terms of its credibility, effectivness, >acceptance, and participation. > >Does General Choi not deserve the same considerations? I do not like what you are halfway implying. The other list you are talking about is tkdnet, and I won't characterise the people who run it, because Mr. Terry is a cautios and honorable man that would probably consider removing my remarks if they were too strong. Mr. Terry is a great guy who can speak for himself, but I just couldn't hold still this time. To even start speaking about the viewpoints of tkdnet-Glenn and friends as something that can be considered to be legitimate is a great insult to Mr. Terry in my opinion. There are too many of us who have had personal experiences with Mr. Glenn, and we understand how the other list can have such opinions of Mr. Terry - and almost anyone else for that matter. We live in a free society, and Mr. Terry has almost not "moderated" the list at all as he is a champion of free speech. However, show him the courtesy of not bringing these topics up. OK? >Carl W. wrote: However, to call General Choi a dictator and the ITF a >dictatorship is >absolutely unwarranted and decidedly malicious. IMHO, it ignores the origins >and history of Taekwon-Do; fails to recognize the contributions of General >Choi to Taekwon-Do (irregardless of style or organization) as well as the >martial arts in general; and serves as a disguised attempt to discredit >General Choi and the ITF in favour of another style, GM, or organization >(and as has said before, arguments of my style vs your style are better >left ... It is a statement of fact - pure and simple. Organizational decisions in the ITF are made on seniority and nothing else. In practice, we all know that this means Gen. Choi when it all comes around. That's a simple fact and in no way malicious. If you want to call it something else than a dictatorship - that's fine - but everybody else will call it for what it really is. Mr. Terry has in no way discredited Gen. Choi's contribution to TKD - quite on the contrary in fact. And I can not see how this has been done in order to favor another style. In short: you are out of line here. Sincerely, Anders Torvill Bjorvand ------------------------------ From: "Farral, Kim G" Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 07:26:30 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: US Military Ranks/ ITF Grand Masters Robert... In answer to your questions... Yes!...Single Star is Brigadier General in the US Armed Forces...Rear Admiral in the Navy. 4 Star is General...Admiral in the Navy... I see you mentioned GM Chuck Serif as one of the Grand Masters in the ITF...I had the privilege of meeting him in the early 80s when I trained with some of his students in Denver, Colorado. But, I also met and participated in seminars with GM Benko form Ann Arbor?....or Lansing? (can't remember which city) Michigan in the mid 80's. At that time, which if I remember the year correctly, it was 1988 when he received his 8th Dan which was considered Grand Master by the ITF...Do you know anything about him? He is suppose to be as close to General Choi as is Chuck Serif. It is also my understanding that there may be a little rivalry between GM Serif and GM Benko. Not to dispute you, but I have been told and I believe I still have some documentation somewhere that states Grand Master rank is 8th and 9th Dans in the ITF. I could be mistaken. The One and Only... Tink ------------------------------ From: HKDTodd@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 09:08:49 EDT Subject: the_dojang: History In a message dated 4/29/00 10:40:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << the martial arts organizations do not respect the intelligence of people, since they won't be honest about their history. >> I agree 100% that many Mudo organizations in Korea and abroad do not tell the truth but I would encourage you and others to keep looking. I know of one particular Hapkido org. In Taegu that has been totally upfront and honest. They are a small group and they are not interested in the commercialization of traditional Mudo, just teaching the art of the founder Choi, Yong Sool in the traditional sense of working hard, sweating getting some bruises and even a dislocated shoulder on rare occasions. This is not for everyone though and this is why we have so many different groups out there (My opinion). Todd ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 06:40:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Master J.R. West Hapkido Seminar= 29 April 2000 Hi Thayne: Regarding part of your comments below, and asking about the distinction between Kuk Sool Won and Master West seminars I note the following. I studied Kuk Sool Won in California. I also studied Hapkido and Kuk Sool Won in Korea. However, I have been out of the loop since 1995 with these respective arts. Hence, my Hapkido skills are currently sub-par. I write from the perspective of an avid learner and admirer of outstanding martial artists who want to impart knowledge. I do not write from the perspective of an expert. I always make the latter clarification since I do not want to mislead readers into assuming that I am an expert. Now, if I practiced more and stuck with it I believe I could reach a better level of proficiency. Currently I study Tang Soo Do and Arnis Esrima. This is principally based on location of schools in my area. I attended one or two Kuk Sool Won seminars in California. My disappointment was that the seminar taught me nothing new. GM In Yuk Suh merely discussed pressure points on the arm and how Korean names are spelled. Then we did the same forms we did in class. For a seminar fee I wanted to learn something new that was not spelled out in the infamous outlined curriculum. It sounds like your experience was better. You may not agree but Kuk Sool Won and Hapkido are extremely similar. In contrast, I enjoyed Master West's seminar for a number of reasons: a. His personality. b. His eagerness to share information-- not control it. c. His willingness to help you with the techniques. He is a hands on type of instructor. He is not an aloof Master sitting in the backroom and occasionally peering out to say hello. d. His teaching staff are there to help you and correct your technique in a non-threatening situation. e. The atmosphere is one of fun and having a good time while learning techniques that you were not exposed to before. In fact, Master West showed higher level techniques to all belt levels. f. Master West and his staff treated all belt levels equally and wanted you to enjoy learning new techniques, understanding the concepts of motion, understanding how your opponent will react, and imparting knowledge to help you extrapolate the principles into the technique. Regarding f above, I can honestly state that I did not feel the same way from the stated seminars I attended in Kuk Sool Won. This is not denigrating the art. It is merely stating my perception based on my own individual experience. I hope the above explains the distinction I was making. It is not an attack or condemnation of Kuk Sool Won. I am writing from the perspective of a consumer who has witnessed a martial art presented in a better fashion. To the latter event, I am grateful to Master West and his instructors. Thanks again, Ken McD... - --- Thayne_Coffman@trilogy.com wrote: > > Dear Sir - > > You've mentioned a couple times about Kuk Sool seminars that you've been to, and I think you've sounded pretty disappointed with them, so I wanted to ask you about it.> __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online and get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 7:03:47 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: more on General Choi > General Choi, as I think everybody knows, took his knowledge of > Shotokan, of which he was a 2nd Degree, and other martial arts > exposure including Tang Soo, Gung Fu, Taekyon, Judo (or Yudo), ... Good info. Do you know what rank he attained in these arts (TSD, GungFu, Taekyon, and Yudo), or for how long he studied? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 06:54:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [none] ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #297 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. 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