From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #298 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Mon, 1 May 2000 Vol 07 : Num 298 In this issue: the_dojang: Military Rank Protocol the_dojang: Ji,Han Jae Seminar info the_dojang: History the_dojang: Re: head trauma the_dojang: Re: org fees the_dojang: Re: shameless self promotion the_dojang: Master Titling in the ITF the_dojang: General dictatorship - not! Re: the_dojang: General dictatorship the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #297 the_dojang: Re: Re: Re: Dictatorship ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 940 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Farral, Kim G" Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 10:35:44 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Military Rank Protocol Mr. Connelly... I am not sure how recent your information is on ranks in the military and I agree with what you have stated, some clarification needs to be added to your statements...If you read my post towards the bottom of Digest #297 you will find that a one star is a General Brigadier General, but General all the same...As for titles, you are correct in the aspect that you never INTRODUCE an officer such as Lieutenant Colonel or Lieutenant Commander as either Colonel or Commander, but you may ADDRESS them in conversation as Colonel, Commander, or General...It is completely acceptable to do such, but when introducing them or introducing themselves, the FULL rank is ALWAYS given, i.e. 1st, 2nd, or JG for Lieutenant; Lieutenant for Commander or Colonel; Brigadier, Major, or Lieutenant for General, and Rear Lower Half, Rear Upper Half, Vice, or Fleet for Admiral...However, since I am a member of the Navy Reserve, I do not wish to speak on proper courtesy of the other Branches, though I have always followed this protocol when dealing with officers of the Armed Forces (and I have dealt with them all, including Generals due to the nature of my profession)...So far... I have never been corrected in my addressing of officers...but would appreciate any correction if in error. Thanks The One and Only... Tink ------------------------------ From: John Beluschak <102704.362@compuserve.com> Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 12:46:43 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Ji,Han Jae Seminar info A Hapkido Seminar featuring DoJuNim Ji,Han Jae Saturday May 20th at the American Judo-Hapkido Inst. 514 N. 4th Street Clairton ,Pa. Schedule of events: 10:30 am--noon ....special childrens seminar (greenbelt & up) 1:00pm--2:30 ........adult seminar 3:00pm--4:00.........Blackbelt seminar Registration is limited for additional info call 412-233-5111 ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 10:08:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: History > the traditional sense of working hard, sweating getting some bruises and > even a dislocated shoulder on rare occasions. This is not for everyone ... Ahh, yes, the Holy Trinity of Hapkido training. * See it work * FEEL that it works * Make it work for you As GM Ji says to the initiate, "Pain?", "Pain!?!", "This Hapkido." :) Ray Terry ------------------------------ From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 13:48:01 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: head trauma In a message dated 5/1/00 7:12:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Unfortunately, one student (the match winner) went down after the match as a result of head trauma. She went into seizure and was taken to a local hospital. She returned several hours later with a clean bill-of-health from the neurologist. >> i realize that this was not the point of your post. however, how could she have head trauma, then return with a clean bill of health? scary neurologist. melinda ChunjiDo -pe rsonal homepage http://hometown.aol.com/chunjido/homehtmlindex.html www.Chajonshim.com Martial Arts Supply now featuring a shopping cart for your convenience! :) Paidforsurf.com - - Main - get paid 75cents/hr to surf the net...i do! Looking for enlightenment is like looking for a flashlight, when all you need the flashlight for is to find the flashlight. ------------------------------ From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 13:45:54 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: org fees In a message dated 5/1/00 7:12:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Our Black Belts pay $30 a year to the U.S.K.A. Organization. So $10 is not a large fee at all. >> yup. ustu competitor members pay....oh Lord, what'd i pay...think it's $35. $10 would be welcomed ;). melinda ChunjiDo -pe rsonal homepage http://hometown.aol.com/chunjido/homehtmlindex.html www.Chajonshim.com Martial Arts Supply now featuring a shopping cart for your convenience! :) Paidforsurf.com - - Main - get paid 75cents/hr to surf the net...i do! Looking for enlightenment is like looking for a flashlight, when all you need the flashlight for is to find the flashlight. ------------------------------ From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 14:20:03 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: shameless self promotion hi folks! i was asked to be the woman of the month on the martial arts zone website. i'm pretty flattered and thought i'd share it with you all :). MA Zone Women In Martial Arts or, http://www.angelfire.com/ms/wma/women.html and be sure to surf the site after reading the interview. it's a pretty cool site :) melinda ChunjiDo -pe rsonal homepage http://hometown.aol.com/chunjido/homehtmlindex.html www.Chajonshim.com Martial Arts Supply now featuring a shopping cart for your convenience! :) Paidforsurf.com - - Main - get paid 75cents/hr to surf the net...i do! Looking for enlightenment is like looking for a flashlight, when all you need the flashlight for is to find the flashlight. ------------------------------ From: danny alberts Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 12:43:16 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Master Titling in the ITF > > > From: "Farral, Kim G" > Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 07:26:30 -0500 > Subject: the_dojang: US Military Ranks/ ITF Grand Masters > > Robert... > > > At that time, which if I > remember the year correctly, it was 1988 when he received his 8th Dan which > was considered Grand Master by the ITF...Do you know anything about him? He > is suppose to be as close to General Choi as is Chuck Serif. It is also my > understanding that there may be a little rivalry between GM Serif and GM > Benko. Not to dispute you, but I have been told and I believe I still have > some documentation somewhere that states Grand Master rank is 8th and 9th > Dans in the ITF. I could be mistaken. > > The One and Only... > > Tink > You are mistaken - well kind of anyway. I was a student of GM Seriff for about 8 years starting in the mid '70's. At the time he was a 6th Dan and his card identified him as Master Sereff. We were taught that 4th Dan started the Master titling, essentially as they were 'baby Masters' or Masters in training. I do not know if there was a formal change or if the titling was something misunderstood through the various communication problems of translating between Korean and English, but the ITF now - worldwide, accepts and uses 7-8th Dan as Master (some texts will say that 8th Dan is World Master), and 9th Dan only is Grand Master. You will find this written very clearly in any of Choi's recent publications. Any documentation you have is either old or was mistaken... Hope this helps. Danny Alberts ------------------------------ From: danny alberts Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 12:58:42 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: General dictatorship - not! > > > From: Anders Torvill Bjorvand > Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 11:06:56 +0200 > Subject: the_dojang: Re: Dictatorship? > > >Carl W. wrote: Mr. Terry, as there are those on this list that speak very > >highly of you > >while there are others of another list that despise you and have gone out of > >their way to discredit you and your efforts, you are well aware of the > >gratuitous and needless criticism, disparagement, and condemnation that > >'leaders' are often subjected to. Your response, and\or that of your > >supporters, to the other list members respecting the charges being made by > >your accusers, has been to watch what transpires on this list and then > >decide the truth for ourselves. In other words, you are asking that people > >judge the legitimacy of this list in terms of its credibility, effectivness, > >acceptance, and participation. > > > >Does General Choi not deserve the same considerations? > > I do not like what you are halfway implying. The other list you are talking > about is tkdnet, and I won't characterise the people who run it, because > Mr. Terry is a cautios and honorable man that would probably consider > removing my remarks if they were too strong. > Mr. Terry is a great guy who can speak for himself, but I just couldn't > hold still this time. > To even start speaking about the viewpoints of tkdnet-Glenn and friends as > something that can be considered to be legitimate is a great insult to Mr. > Terry in my opinion. There are too many of us who have had personal > experiences with Mr. Glenn, and we understand how the other list can have > such opinions of Mr. Terry - and almost anyone else for that matter. > We live in a free society, and Mr. Terry has almost not "moderated" the > list at all as he is a champion of free speech. > However, show him the courtesy of not bringing these topics up. OK? > > >Carl W. wrote: However, to call General Choi a dictator and the ITF a > >dictatorship is > >absolutely unwarranted and decidedly malicious. IMHO, it ignores the origins > >and history of Taekwon-Do; fails to recognize the contributions of General > >Choi to Taekwon-Do (irregardless of style or organization) as well as the > >martial arts in general; and serves as a disguised attempt to discredit > >General Choi and the ITF in favour of another style, GM, or organization > >(and as has said before, arguments of my style vs your style are better > >left ... > > It is a statement of fact - pure and simple. Organizational decisions in > the ITF are made on seniority and nothing else. In practice, we all know > that this means Gen. Choi when it all comes around. That's a simple fact > and in no way malicious. If you want to call it something else than a > dictatorship - that's fine - but everybody else will call it for what it > really is. > > Mr. Terry has in no way discredited Gen. Choi's contribution to TKD - quite > on the contrary in fact. And I can not see how this has been done in order > to favor another style. > > In short: you are out of line here. > > Sincerely, > Anders Torvill Bjorvand > Out of line - maybe.. But I think he raised a good question, albeit a little strongly perhaps. I myself cannot change your use of the word 'dictator' if you are too opinionated to research it further, but it is a poor choice indeed. The word 'dictator' has been appropriately applied as title to various individuals as Mussolini, Castro, Pinochet, and - oh yea, that Iraq guy. Dictator means they do what they want - with or without consult, they are the final decider, and anyone who opposes is literally eliminated. Elimination by jailing and/or murder, although sometimes exiling. Of course, dictator's have been known to change the minds of their opposition through torture or threats against the family, etc. Now General Choi may work in a hierarchy - you may consider this inappropriate. But that is how most companies work as well. He receives advice from his subordinates and either with his subordinates or by himself will make a decision and pass it down. He and his subordinates have even been known to reverse themselves on past decisions. But murder, jailing, threats against family? Heck, I have experienced Hatchet Consultants at companies who could more be considered dictators than anything General Choi has done ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 12:28:40 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: General dictatorship Actually dictator probably does fit. This is the case with most one-man or family arts, the current head is in total and complete charge. No board of directors that can overrule, as in a company. No judicial or legislative branch that can overrule, as in a democracy. I've been in, and I'm still in, single-head arts. Depending on the person in charge, it can work just fine. But I think we've about beat this thread into the ground. Perhaps we should go back to arguing about Hapkido or Kuk Sool or, I know, we should beat on those HwaRangDo guys for awhile... Or maybe those Soo Bahk Do wimps... :) Ray "Jokes-R-Us" Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Oregfightingarts@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 15:24:58 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #297 I find it interesting that people name various arts a founder studied before the creation of whatever-do, and go on to say that the founder wanted to improve/change things in those arts for the better, and created his own way/style.....then, in the same breath, these same people slam anyone who has crosstrained in varied arts for 'changing' their base art to what they believe is better. Seems contradictory. Thats how most of the arts we practice came to be. An adept martial artist, learns from a master, wants to change things, trains with other masters of other arts, and combines them. That is evolution, and without it the art will not improve.....we all want improvement...dont we? Mark Gajdostik ------------------------------ From: "Carl W" Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 13:36:21 MDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Re: Re: Dictatorship >From: Anders Torvill Bjorvand > >I do not like what you are halfway implying. The other list you are talking >about is tkdnet, and I won't characterise the people who run it, because >Mr. Terry is a cautios and honorable man that would probably consider >removing my remarks if they were too strong. >Mr. Terry is a great guy who can speak for himself, but I just couldn't >hold still this time. >To even start speaking about the viewpoints of tkdnet-Glenn and friends as >something that can be considered to be legitimate is a great insult to Mr. >Terry in my opinion. There are too many of us who have had personal >experiences with Mr. Glenn, and we understand how the other list can have >such opinions of Mr. Terry - and almost anyone else for that matter. >We live in a free society, and Mr. Terry has almost not "moderated" the >list at all as he is a champion of free speech. >However, show him the courtesy of not bringing these topics up. OK? > My comments were not in any way intended to insult Mr. Terry or this list. I think that we are all fortunate that Mr. Terry has taken the time and effort to provide us this forum. I sincerely appreciate, and support, Mr. Terry and this mailing list (as well as his excellent www site). The point I was trying to make, however sloppily, was to draw two analogies. I had hoped that the list readers would pick up on the similarities between the situations and respond accordingly. I had not the foresight to see that my words could be considered as being derogatory towards Mr. Terry. The first analogy concerned the efforts of those that have the courage to forge ahead with their own visions (as General Choi as done, as has Mr. Terry). They are very often, and unnecessarily, attacked by others - for whatever reasons - in the attempts to discredit the individuals and\or their efforts. The second analogy attempted to indicate some objective basis upon which the efforts of such 'leaders' could be evaluated. I apoligize to all whom my words conveyed a meaning other than that which was intended . >It is a statement of fact - pure and simple. Organizational decisions in >the ITF are made on seniority and nothing else. In practice, we all know >that this means Gen. Choi when it all comes around. That's a simple fact >and in no way malicious. If you want to call it something else than a >dictatorship - that's fine - but everybody else will call it for what it >really is. I've only been involved in TKD for 2 years so have so very much to learn. However, I have been quite involved, administratively and organizationally, with the club to which I belong and have not seen anything being dictated to us from above. Previously, I have indicated that our club operates very openly and democratically. However, I do know that my instructor is teaching us (his students) the things that the ITF has told him must be taught at the different belt levels, and according to official ITF standards. I see this as a standardized curriculum rather than a dictatorship, but I suppose it could be classified as such. I would appreciate knowing more about how your club operates - adminstratively, organizationally, and with regards to the curriculum and setting of standards. With this I can hopefully gain an understanding of how I am subject to the whims of a dictator and\or dictatorship. (please consider this a serious request. This is not intended as a sarcastic remark) > >Mr. Terry has in no way discredited Gen. Choi's contribution to TKD - quite >on the contrary in fact. And I can not see how this has been done in order >to favor another style. > >In short: you are out of line here. > It was not Mr. Terry that called General Choi a dictator and the ITF a dictatorship. In fact, as Mr. Terry has emphasized and re-emphasized and as you have stated, Mr. Terry does acknowledge the contributions of General Choi. Rather, it was another poster that made those allegations. Also, my comments were NOT meant for that person directly, but rather to the list and its members in general. I feel that, _typically_, the purpose of subjecting something or someone to undue, harsh, and detrimental criticism is usually for or towards the benefit of something or someone else. Thus, the discussion sinks to the level of kids arguing over who has the best, biggest, strongest, nicest, newer, ... whatever. In any case, and again, my comments were not directed at Mr. Terry. Mr. Bjorvand, I hope I have better explained my comments to you. I again apoligize to you, as well as to anybody else, if I have led you to believe that I was attacking Mr. Terry or this list. Thanks Carl W. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #298 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.