From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #300 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Tues, 2 May 2000 Vol 07 : Num 300 In this issue: the_dojang: re: Choi, Hong Hi and CDK the_dojang: Teaching your own children the_dojang: Melody Cookson (Director) and Bob Cookson the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #299 the_dojang: Song Moo Kwan or Chung Do Kwan the_dojang: RE: General dictatorship Re: the_dojang: RE: General dictatorship the_dojang: Gen Choi vs GM Lee, Won Guk as TKD founder the_dojang: Hapkido in TKD the_dojang: RE: General dictatorship the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #299 Re: the_dojang: Hapkido in TKD Re: the_dojang: Gen Choi vs GM Lee, Won Guk as TKD founder Re: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #299 [none] ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 940 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HwarangTSD@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 20:49:16 EDT Subject: the_dojang: re: Choi, Hong Hi and CDK As it may surprise those of you who know that I teach Moo Duk Kwan, I hold a sixth dan in Chung Do Kwan. As far as I know, Choi did study at the CDK, but Lee Won Kuk would not be the father of Taekowndo. Lee, Won Kuk's art is Chung Do kwan, and for a brief period was actually called Tae Soo Do Chung Do Kwan. Personally when I taught "Taekwondo" I never used the name Taekwondo, only the name Chung Do Kwan. Choi, is indeed the father of Taekwondo as he created the name Taekwondo, and pursuant to his own words, used the name because of its similarity to the art of Taek Kyun. Personally, I wish that the sport had a different name than Taekwondo, to help alleviate confusion. As far as history goes, it is my understanding that Song Moo Kwan was actually first, but shut down due to a lack of students at that time. It later reopened. The Chung Do Kwan was the first Kwan that actually had a student base. This is what my reasearch has indicated. If anyone can provide any documentation to the contrary, I would love to see it. (not meaning any offense, I just like learning history.) I would like to thank those of you who post educational materials here. Perhaps in this way we can sort through misinformation, and figure out the truth. Sincerely, Master Frank Clay ------------------------------ From: "John A. Cook" Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 21:51:07 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Teaching your own children Howdy, I would like to hear from those of you who have taught your own child(ren) and other children. Though not yet having reached black belt, I do have some experience teaching - and not just "leading the class." However, all of those students were teenaged or older, so attention span was not a problem, and expecting directions to be followed was not a problem. Now, the time has come to introduce my son to the martial arts. He seems interested - a little more than "dad does it and I want to be like him". I'm easing him into it and trying to keep it fun. Unfortunately, his dad (me), is a stickler for technical correctness. I'm learning patience all over again :> Gen. Choi Hong Hi's big ol' book suggests that parents may sometimes not be the best (formal) teachers because the required discipline may not be there. Maybe, maybe not. Doubtful. However, I can see a student not working as hard to impress dear old dad, because dad is there every day, training and otherwise. There is no getting around it, my sahbumnim is a long way away and mine and my son's training will be on my own. I thought it might be neat to read some thoughts on the subject. (I will, of course, consult my sahbumnim). John http://www.CookComputing.net/personal/john.htm ICQ: 2507859 AOL IM: JohnACookComp ------------------------------ From: "Moja Kwan - C. Richards" Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 22:09:46 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Melody Cookson (Director) and Bob Cookson <> In most tournaments I've been to, same school does not compete in *first* rounds, in the semi-finals, it's however the brackets play out. I haven't seen any written rules about deference to seniors, but some schools have *unwritten* protocol. Personally I'm OK with either version, as the goal of competing (IMO) is not to get the biggest trophy, but to learn the most about yourself from a dynamic, unpredicatble partner. << We are seeking your thoughts because of the following limits on our experience... 1) we have owned our school for just 2.5 years 2) our senior instructor is a young man of 24 who appreciates others' experience and input 3) this is the first VERY serious injury that we have encountered in competition>> I beleive your hearts are in the right place, and so you haven't had any serious injuries. I would suggest taking a moment to doccument your (that's you the owners) policies on sparring in your school. At some point you may switch to an insurance carrier that request such a written doccument. Tournaments, are usually a product that consumers purchase, so I wouldn't try to regulate that per se, but you could make widely known your opinions and unwritten protocols. As to 2.5 years of teaching, if its not 30 repetitions of the same month of teaching, I'd say your on your way to a fine Dojang. Yours in training, Charles Richards Moja Kwan TSD ------------------------------ From: "Rodney G. Graves" Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 20:14:28 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #299 Sir, I was trying to avoid the "My martial art is better than yours" syndrome here. All I can really speak to is what I have done and seen. > > With most of the martial arts I believe you will find what matters > > most is the master under whom you study. > >Agree > > > As regards Hapkido, It is the art which I study, and I was > > fortunate enough to do so under an exceptional master (Alan A. Banks III) > > in a small club environment in Seoul. My experience has been > > outstanding. I have gone out of my way to continue in the art since > > returning to the United States. > > > > One thing you do need to know is that Hapkido is demanding. You > > will spend a lot of time learning how to fall without injury, and a lot of > > time in the air after learning to fall safely. You will also get to spend > > a fair amount of time launching your fellow students. > >I agree - I have been in a lot of TKD schools - falling without injury is >not emphasized nearly enough. > > > Hapkido is a complete art, with joint locks and throws from > > Aiki-Jujitsu, and the strikes and kicks of Taekwondo. I find myself > > physically exhausted and mentally at peace after a good strong session. > >???? TKD has lots of joint locks and throws - it is called Hosin-Sul. >In fact, General Choi incorporated Hapkido into Taekwon-Do as formal >part of curriculum in 1969. He worked with Master Chung, Kee Tae worked >to get curriculum developed and published into General Choi's 1972 edition >of "Taekwon-Do" - and every edition since. > HoSin-Sul (self-defense) is comprised of Hapki-Do (about 60%), Yudo, >kicks. My very limited experience with TKD in Korea comes mostly from students of TKD who took up Hapkido. Most of them didn't stay very long. Of the two who did, one was Il Dan in TKD and Armed Forces Silver Medalist in the heavy weight division. He also had a background in law enforcement. He found Hapkido to be far more physically and mentally demanding, and more useful for self defense and law enforcement. Since I have been back in the United States, I was fortunate enough to find a dojang with a mixed curriculum. Since the classes are larger, there is not as much time for refinement of technique, nor as much emphasis on self defense techniques. The sparring has also been a real change for me. Most of the best kicks and techniques in my repetoire are proscribed. I worry that the responses I learned at great cost in sweat and discomfort will atrophy. >Not trying to be negative, but perhaps your TKD teachers did not understand >the curriculum as well as they should have... My current Sabum has experience in Taekwondo, Hapkido, and Escrima. I hope to someday be as proficient on one art as he is in three. >My question for you. What makes an art "a complete martial art"? Long Range Kicking Defenses against Kicking Middle Range Striking Defenses against Striking Infighting Throwing Defenses against Throwing Joint Locking Defenses against Joint Locking Pressure Points Ground Fighting Hap Ki Rodney G. Graves Il Dan, Hapkido ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 20:35:22 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Song Moo Kwan or Chung Do Kwan >As it may surprise those of you who know that I teach Moo Duk Kwan, I hold a >sixth dan in Chung Do Kwan. As far as I know, Choi did study at the CDK, but >Lee Won Kuk would not be the father of Taekwondo. Lee, Won Kuk's art is Chung >Do kwan, and for a brief period was actually called Tae Soo Do Chung Do Kwan. >Personally when I taught "Taekwondo" I never used the name Taekwondo, only >the name Chung Do Kwan. > >Choi, is indeed the father of Taekwondo as he created the name Taekwondo, and >pursuant to his own words, used the name because of its similarity to the art >of Taek Kyun. However, GM LEE Won-kuk claims the title of Father of Taekwondo (see the interview w/him in Taekwondo Times). He claims that he gave the name to Gen. Choi. That and since the Oh Do Kwan was under the Chung Do Kwan, that he (GM Lee) should be considered the Father of TKD. Regardless of who first came up with the name, IMHO it was Gen. Choi's power and influence in President Rhee's Korea that gave TKD a strong start. Yes? > As far as history goes, it is my understanding that Song Moo Kwan was > actually first, but shut down due to a lack of students at that time. It > later reopened. Master Frankovich, you wanna jump in here with your SMK research? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: danny alberts Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 22:02:51 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: General dictatorship > > From: Ray Terry > Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 15:02:16 PDT > Subject: Re: the_dojang: RE: General dictatorship > > > There is a group of senior black belts that oversee the ITF. > > ... > > Not a very good dictator! > > Could they replace/retire the General as head of the ITF? > > If so, then I agree (as if that matters to anyone :). > > Ray Terry > raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Probably not, but neither could the same be done with 90% of Presidents of businesses in the US either. I am sure if enough negative feedback and pressure came about on an issue, General Choi would either compromise, reverse, or step down. His dedication to spreading the art is too strong to see it destroyed. dalberts ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 21:29:36 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: RE: General dictatorship > Probably not, but neither could the same be done with 90% of Presidents > of businesses in the US either. I believe that a company's Board of Directors can always hire/fire the Office of the President. Perhaps that is primarily w/publically held companies. ?? Curious... Does anyone know how the ITF is formally and legally organized? I believe that while in Korea, it was a privately held organization under Gen. Choi's ownership. What about the organizational legal restrictions in Canada, then Austria? Is it similar to the not-for-profit or perhaps the non-profit organizations in the US? Is the Gen. paid a salary? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: danny alberts Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 22:37:28 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Gen Choi vs GM Lee, Won Guk as TKD founder > > > From: ICyrus8528@aol.com > Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 19:05:36 EDT > Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #297 > > I appreciate Mr. Albert's discourse on Taekwondo, however, after over 25 > years in Taekwondo (and having studied both ITF & WTF styles) and having > achieved the level of 6th Dan, and having training both in S. Korea and in > the U.S., I regard GM Lee, Won Guk as the true father of Korean Taekwondo. > Remember, the only thing that changes are the names we give things. GM Lee > founded the first martial arts gym, the Chung Do Kwan in post-war S. Korea. > GM Son Duk Son succeeded him as the head of the Chung Do Kwan. Gen. Choi Hong > Hi, and I could be wrong, was a member of that gym. Furthermore, he was > promoted to the rank of honorary 4th Dan only to have it recinded because he > was taking liberties with the direction of the art not befitting his status. > Now, I agree that he, Gen Choi, despite his early history, has made > significant contributions to what we now know as Taekwondo, but I suspect > that he was able to accomplish this due to his military and political power. > Does anyone care to have this conversation move in this direction? BTW, I > don't mind being corrected. > > Ian A. Cyrus > Nice to talk Mr. Cyrus. I certainly do not deny the strong roots that Chung Do Kwan has to Taekwon-Do. And this particular time period of the history seems to be an extreme hot-point and very political - depending who is doing the talking. I would be happy if you would forward me the published references for your information. I am a nighttime historian on these details, and am considering authoring something myself someday about this (these) topics. But without that knowledge in front of me right now, I can offer my opinion to the contrary with the following: By 1959, several of the Kwans were still practicing under Japanese names (see my last message) such as Tang Soo Do and Kong Soo Do. Chung Do Kwan, being taught in civilian schools was one of the arts being taught using a Japanese name. It is important to note that Taekwon-Do was already being taught to the military during this time period, while Chung Do Kwan was being taught to civilians. And yes, they are similar, surely much more so in 1959. In 1959, several leaders of various Kwans came to General Choi's home. They represented Song Moo Kwan, Chang Moo Kwan, Moo Duk Kwan, and Ji Do Kwan. In order to unify under a single Korean name, the general strongly proposed and they finally accepted the naem Taekwon-Do. This was when the Korean Taekwon-Do Association was formed. General Choi was elected president. Now, in a couple more sentences I will get to my point. When I studied Gojo Ryu, I studied under a person who said he had to make significant changes to it for it to work for non-Japanese bodies (here in the states). So he changed its structure and content and named it Shorei Gojo Ryu. I know an instructor in this town who took a Japanese martial art (something obscure to me, not Shotokan and not Shorin Ryu and not Karate, and changed it quite a bit and calls it American Gishite. Now both these gentlemen refer to themselves as founders. Ok - don't laugh yet - this happens all the time and more times than not without success. Here is my point. So the general starts with a background of many martial arts, takes what he likes, modifies other stuff, discards some stuff, and ends up with something he wants to give a name to, Taekwon-Do in this case. Sure it has strong roots in Chung Do Kwan. But these are roots. Taekwon-Do is quite different. The patterns are different, the philosophy of the body movement to generate power (sine wave) is quite different. So are the subtleties of promoting and practicing the moral culture. Now the question is, is another man, a person who either refused to be a part of or not the decision maker to go off on this tangent really the founder. You and I may disagree on this, but my own answer is no. IMHO, the real founder takes the good with the bad. General Choi has taken a great deal of criticism for this highly successful world-wide martial art, Taekwon-Do. I have not read anywhere, your GM's name associated with any of this criticism. Perhaps we should be much more careful before we start bestowing all of the platitudes on his shoulders as well. Finally, I did not know that General Choi's rank in Chung Do Kwan had been stripped. I would certainly like to enhance my historical information of his Chung Do Kwan ties. But I would submit that it many times takes a 'maverick' to take new directions when dealing in highly politicized areas. The martial arts is certainly one of these areas. And with the Koreans trying to establish an art that they could identify as uniquely Korean, the politics were probably cut-throat. I am sure, as in any type of similar situation, people got 'steam-rolled'. Maybe your GM was there at the beginning. But I do not find this borne out in the literature. Please forward me your references. As I said - I am a fair person. If I read it, and am able to substantiate it with other credible cross-references, I will become your advocate. Thank you for your contribution to the debate. It gives me something else to consider for my own research. dalberts ------------------------------ From: danny alberts Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 22:49:33 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Hapkido in TKD > > > From: Ray Terry > Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 15:11:20 PDT > Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #297 > > > ???? TKD has lots of joint locks and throws - it is called Hosin-Sul. > > In fact, General Choi incorporated Hapkido into Taekwon-Do as formal > > part of curriculum in 1969. He worked with Master Chung, Kee Tae worked > > to get curriculum developed and published into General Choi's 1972 edition > > of "Taekwon-Do" - and every edition since. > > HoSin-Sul (self-defense) is comprised of Hapki-Do (about 60%), Yudo, kicks. > > The hoshinsul shown in the Gen's books comes from the Chung Do Kwan (CDK). > The General formed his Oh Do Kwan as a sub-kwan of LEE Won Kuk's CDK. This > hoshinsul (perhaps 10% to 20% of the HKD syllabus +) was frequently practiced > in the dojangs of Korea prior to the late 70s, early 80s. Around that time > they began to focus more on sparring and, unfortunately (IMHO), hoshinsul I might agree in part - certainly hand-to-hand combat, techniques learned in Hosin-Sul was taught and around far earlier than when I cited Master Chung, Kee Tae worked with General Choi to incorporate much more Hapki-Do. And I certainly expect that when I read words spoken by Master Chung, that they are colored from his own memory. But perhaps you could identify one of the participants in the Hosin-Sul photographs published in Choi's 1975 Taekwon-Do. I am told that those are indeed Master Chung. Mr. Terry, it sounds like we are mincing words on the same side of the discussion. My point in presenting the results of my own research were to state that Taekwon-Do does support and teach joint locks, falls, throws, etc. This is the stuff known as Hosin-Sul. I did this for the other writer who said that Taekwon-Do offered the kicks to Hapki-Do, but not vice versa. (Of course, they all share a lot - common roots and finally, non- secretive training). I also agree with you that some schools do not teach much Hosin-Sul - in fact, when I lived in VA and took classes at a Jhoon Rhee school - it was never taught (but that was WTF). Here in my little town of Fort Collins, I sometimes pass some time watching our local WTF school teach. All sparring and kicks - no Hosin-Sul. Then while in Phoenix, at an independent Taekwon-Do school, it was the same thing, although they did a lot of Thai boxing - enlightening. But nothing i would characterize as Hosin-Sul - the stuff you might really need in a bar or something. In St. Louis, the independent Taekwon-Do school, one of Fred Wren's, took me apart with the stuff. 50/50 or so. Strong self-defense full of Jiu-jitsu, Hapki-Do, Judo, etc. The ITF schools I have been in have taught it to varying degrees, but all have taught it. It is required for testing in the ITF, so indeed, it is part of the curriculum. Again, the strength of the student will depend on his/her own interest and the strength of their instructor (and the cycle continues)..... > > practice (in Korean TKD) fell by the wayside. > > Ray Terry > raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Robert Martin Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 22:53:52 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: General dictatorship Dear Sir, To answer your question simply -- yes, it is within the powers of the Congress of the ITF to replace the President of the Federation. Now from a prattical prespective --- would they replace Gen. Choi? Not likely, from a practicle prespecitive. However, I think we will see a new ITF president sometime during 2001. Regards Robert Martin From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 15:02:16 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: RE: General dictatorship > There is a group of senior black belts that oversee the ITF. > ... > Not a very good dictator! Could they replace/retire the General as head of the ITF? If so, then I agree (as if that matters to anyone :). Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Robert Martin Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 23:08:55 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #299 Sir, I haven't found any information on weither the Oh Do Kwan was a part of Chung Do Kwan. Therefore I won't comment on the development of hosinsul from HKD. However, I will mention that at least for the past dozen years hosinsul has been a part of the ITF in the United States (at least in the USTF). We do teach falling, throwing, and joint locks techinques to all ranks. It is, I confess, still a small part the system. After Taekwon-Do is an art of kicking and punching. I certianly agree that in Korea this part of Taekwon-Do was overlooked as more emphasis was placed on reaching the Olympics by the WTF. Regards, Robert Martin >The hoshinsul shown in the Gen's books comes from the Chung Do Kwan >(CDK). >The General formed his Oh Do Kwan as a sub-kwan of LEE Won Kuk's CDK. >This >hoshinsul (perhaps 10% to 20% of the HKD syllabus +) was frequently >practiced >in the dojangs of Korea prior to the late 70s, early 80s. Around that >time >they began to focus more on sparring and, unfortunately (IMHO), >hoshinsul >practice (in Korean TKD) fell by the wayside. >Ray Terry >raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 22:20:23 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: Hapkido in TKD > I lived in VA and took classes at a Jhoon Rhee school - it was never taught (but that > was WTF). Wasn't GM Jhoon Rhee one of Gen. Choi's early followers? Just curious... > Here in my little town of Fort Collins, I sometimes pass some time > watching our local WTF school teach. Ft. Collins, CO? I should be there again next week. Do you study with Mr. Steffen at CSU? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 22:22:25 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: Gen Choi vs GM Lee, Won Guk as TKD founder >In order to unify under a single Korean name, the general strongly proposed and >they finally accepted the naem Taekwon-Do. This was when the Korean Taekwon-Do >Association was formed. I thought the first single Korean name was Tae Soo Do. The Korean Tae Soo Do Association was formed a year or so prior to the Korean Taekwondo Assoc. From GM Hwang Kee's history: "The Korean Tae Soo Do Association incorporated and joined with the Korean Athletic Association (a sport body) in January, 1964. Korean Tae Soo Do Association changed its name to Korean Tae Kwon Do Association in 1965. Chairmen of Tae Kwon Do Association from its establishment to the present time: Che Myung Sin, Choi Hong Hee, No Byong Jik, Kim Young Che, and Kim Un Yong." Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 22:36:31 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #299 > I haven't found any information on weither the Oh Do Kwan was a part of > Chung Do Kwan. More from Hwang Kee's history: School Member Styles - ----------------------------------- ... Chung Do Kwan Chung Do Kwan Chong Kyong Kwan Kuk Moo Kwan O Do Kwan Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 22:21:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [none] ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #300 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.