From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #302 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Tues, 2 May 2000 Vol 07 : Num 302 In this issue: the_dojang: Choi vs. Lee, and Choi the_dojang: Pyong Ahn forms the_dojang: Gen. Choi and the Olympics the_dojang: James Benko the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #300 the_dojang: Anyone know anything about Wen-Do? the_dojang: ustu question the_dojang: RE: Training your own Kids the_dojang: Promotion the_dojang: Re: Hapkido congratulations the_dojang: WTF certifications and USTU assistance in obtaining them the_dojang: Referees [none] ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 940 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 7:54:39 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Choi vs. Lee, and Choi > So, here we have conflicts by statement from colorization of memory. General > Choi states in TKD Times that he created the name (1/2000). Other than what you just > wrote, I have not read differently (can you send me the date of your issue of the TKD > Times to which you are referring?). We'd have the check the taekwondotimes.com website. It was perhaps two years or so prior to the interview with Gen. Choi. Not new news however, GM Lee has made that claim for a long while. His point is that he introduced the name, but since Gen Choi was the head of the committee, the person in charge of that committee (Gen Choi) received credit. To me, it just doesn't matter. We just need to realize that there isn't one clear answer. > My research indicates that Hapkido was founded in the early to mid 1920's, 1920s? The very earliest date one could think of using would be after the death of Takeda Sensei and the return of CHOI Yong-sool to Korea and his starting to teach Yawara (in the Hapki Yu Sool Kwan, i.e. the School of Aiki-JuJutsu) in Taegu City, c1947. Yes? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 8:08:59 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Pyong Ahn forms > reading some of these books and articles. Its been awahile since I looked at > Tang Soo Do Vol. 1, but many tang soo do stylists believe that the > Kicho/Pyong ahn sets are of a chinese origin. This can not be true as they > were created by a genlteman named Itosu who was def. not Korean or Chinese. From Hwang Kee's Tang Soo Do (Soo Bahk Do) p.372, comments on Pyung Ahn Cho Dan Hyung. "Originally this form was called "Jae-Nam". Approximately 100 years ago [book published in 1978] an Okiwanan master, Mr. Idos, reorganized the Jae Nam form in a form closely resembling the present Pyong Ahn forms..." And from the archives of the_dojang... "The Pinan/Pyong Ahn forms were created by Master Itosu around 1900. Many have claimed that the Pinans, which were developed to be taught in schools as PE, were based on the Kusanku kata found in Okinawan and Japanese karate." "Supposedly the Kusanku kata was taught to the Okinawans by a Chinese from Fukien Province named Ku Sanku. See Nagamine's "Essence of Okinawan Karate-do" for more details." Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 8:11:01 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Gen. Choi and the Olympics > << It was also his goal and dream > to get TKD into the Olympics. >> > > IS this really true, Master Terry? In several interviews I read, Mr. > Hong Hi Choi spoke adamantly against taekwondo's inclusion in the Olympics. > He said that would destroy taekwondo as a martial art. His early press clippings indicate that he set a goal for the KTA of getting TKD into the Olympics. And we see that the KTA was formed as part of the Korean Athletic Association, similar to the AAU here in the US. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 11:32:07 EDT Subject: the_dojang: James Benko Someone recently posted that they had been to one of James Benko's seminars a while back. (Tink maybe?) I was just curious about his seminar, etc. I have seen his ads and webpage, and have seen a couple of the videos he sells, just wondering what you know. Thanks, Alain Burrese ------------------------------ From: "Carl W" Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 09:36:43 MDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #300 >Curious... Does anyone know how the ITF is formally and legally organized? >I believe that while in Korea, it was a privately held organization under >Gen. Choi's ownership. What about the organizational legal restrictions >in Canada, then Austria? Is it similar to the not-for-profit or perhaps >the >non-profit organizations in the US? Is the Gen. paid a salary? > >Ray Terry >raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com > I cannot speak for the higher levels of the ITF, but from a bottom-up perspective.. Our local club is a registered society. In Canada this means that a copy of the clubs' purposes, bylaws, constitution, and founding members be submitted to the provincial (equiv to the US state) government, along with the appropriate fee. Once approved by the provincial gov't (yes, the province does have the power to deny incorporation of the club if the club purposes, etc are for such things as the promotion of hatred, etc.), yearly submissions of financial statements, changes in directors, as well as changes in constitution and bylaws must be submitted on an annual basis. Again, societies have been shut down if they do not provide this information. As a society, the club is considered a legal person and is thus entitiled to all rights and priviledges (as well as responsibilities and obligations) that a person enjoys. According to our bylaws and constitution, the club executive is responsible for conducting all the business of the club including appointing (hiring and firing) the chief instructor. Yes, the club executive may decide to hire a WTF or Karate instructor rather than an ITF instructor. As well, up until this year, our chief instructor was only the treasurer of the society (he is currently the president). As well, of the 7 executive positions, only 3 are black belts. Given the existence of the club, in order to become affiliated with and officially recognized by the ITF, we need to have a chief instructor that, at a minimum, is a 4th dan and in good standing with the ITF. As apart of the application to the ITF for affiliation, we need to make some committments regarding such standards as testing and grading, the style being taught, etc (but this is actually more the responsibility of the chief instructor but becomes our responsibility as we have to oversee him). As an approved club we have the right to use the ITF name, logo, etc. At the provincial and national levels, registered societies also operate. They are duly incorporated according to the laws of Canada. I suspect that the provincial society applies only to the national association for recognition, whereas the national body has a contractual agreement directly with the ITF, the same as each club has. Interestingly, there is a local ITF club that is not a member of the provincial association but is a member of the national association and is also officially recognized by the ITF. So, clubs can exist independently of the "bureaucracy". In short, each club is independent and can do as it wishes. It is neither owned or controlled by other than its members. However, if it wants to be recognized by the ITF, it must jump thru certain hoops. Having had much retail business experience, the contract with the ITF is not much different that those which I have signed with distributors and manufacturers in order to carry certain product lines. In terms of finances, I know the club pays a small fee to the national association. I do not believe it pays a fee to the provincial association (thats an individual, personal membership of $10 per year) or directly to the ITF, however I'd have to check the books to be certain. Carl W. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Donnla Nic Gearailt Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 16:43:52 +0100 Subject: the_dojang: Anyone know anything about Wen-Do? Hi, I have a question about a martial art form called Wen-Do. A friend of mine in Groningen, the Netherlands studied this. Web searches have turned up a few hits in Germany and Canada. According to Julia (my friend who studied this) it was primarily intended for self-defense, although she did some breaking as well, and the class she attended was for women only. Anyone have any info on this? Donnla. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Donnla Nic Gearailt Computer Laboratory, New Museums Site, Graduate Student Pembroke St., Cambridge CB2 3QG, U.K. tel: +44-1223-334619 http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~dbn20/ "An eyelash! How could you be so careless!" - Jude Law, Gattaca ------------------------------ From: Tkdtiger@aol.com Date: Tue May 02 11:42:44 2000 Subject: the_dojang: ustu question This young man would like to make a run at the Olympics the next time around or the time after that (he is only 16 or so - I think - now). He doesn't want to give up his ITF/USTF status in order to do this.>>>> He doesn't have to give up anything except MONEY. Fork over the $35 membership dues annually and take a shot. He can keep his NRA, IRA, ITF, USNTF, you name it..... needless to say if the USTU even thought of restricting membership the EOC and the Civil Liberties people would be all over their collective assets. ------------------------------ From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 11:32:00 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Training your own Kids I have had mixed results with training immediate family members. My wife still thinks I expected more from her than from others, but she is one tough lady now. My kids have problems separating my being a father vs. a sah bum nim at times. This seems harder for my son than for my daughter. It is also hard on his ego since his younger sister has surpassed him in rank. I know some other people who have sent their kids to other schools or at least to classes in their schools that other instructors were teaching. Danny Dunn ------------------------------ From: "Tomlinson, Michael E." Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 12:47:57 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Promotion Thank you Mr. Rogers for your kind words and advice, sometimes I get frustrated with the whole scenario. It is at times like those that hearing people speak on the subject that DO have decades into the art helps. I am sure men like you, J.R. West, Hal Whalen, Rick Nabors and some of the others on here have all seen this before and sadly we will probably see it again. I'll tell Rick Nabors you said hello. Michael Tomlinson ------------------------------ From: jsegovia@mindspring.com Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 12:50:28 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Hapkido congratulations 'Nice post. And it's very nice to see the correct use of Korean titles, referring to yourself as 'Kwang Jang' instead of 'KwanJangNim,' which is an honorific one should never use for oneself. Jesse the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com wrote: > Kwan Jang Dan Rogers ------------------------------ From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 11:51:45 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: WTF certifications and USTU assistance in obtaining them Master Silz stated: Kukkiwon certification is not required to compete in a USTU event; it might just be unlawful to do so under the US Amateur Sports Act of 1978. Certification, however, IS a requirement to compete in a WTF sanctioned event, which is why the USTU strongly recommends that competitive athletes pursue such certification. The Union will assist an athlete who qualifies for a WTF sanctioned meet in obtaining one in a hurry so that they may represent the US as they have earned the right to do. SESilz Question: Is the WTF certification issued only on the basis of someone sparring by WTF rules or are there other requirements for the rank that must be met and demonstrated as well? I guess I am assuming you were talking about dan rank certification, were you not? And if you were talking about rank certification, what is the rationale if taekwondo is an art, or is it only considered a sport by WTF? I'm not interesting in flaming you or anyone else, I am just trying to learn. Danny Dunn ------------------------------ From: "Christopher Spiller" Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 17:07:34 GMT Subject: the_dojang: Referees << I've been to several USTU tournaments (in Indiana and Illinois) where "judges who were all promoted under a democratic leadership" (i.e., the WTF) made some pretty bad and biased calls. >> > Indeed, people make mistakes. Judges are people. Therefore >judges >make mistakes. Personally, I hate it when they occur, but >errors are a >fact of life. Indeed. This was kind of my original point. Just because someone is educated by a "dictator" vs. receiving a "democratic" education doesn't mean they will score a contestant badly. Humans make mistakes whether they are a Democrat, Communist, or Distributionist. > This is not a Not a "flame," but what make you so certain that you > >were not the person who misjudged the matches you have referenced. > >After all, while utterly human, at least The USTU Referee is formally > >trained on an ongoing basis, ascending from a non-certified level, to > >various levels of state and national referees. The WTF then further > >trains them through 3 levels of International performance. On the >other >hand, can you explain the training you have received on how to >score or >judge a WTF taekwondo match? >Sincerely, >SESilz Sure. Back at Purdue I took a referee certification course through the WTF Master who taught there. We did several seminars on the rules of a WTF Taekwon-Do match; rules of superiority, "trembling shock" (which I think is now termed "body displacement"), legal techniques, warnings, fouls, etc. This included both the academic aspect of things (i.e., lectures and explanations) as well as practical applications (i.e., demonstrated sparring matches with specific techniques that the contestants executed to see if the would-be referees could tell what actually scored and what didn't). We also took a fairly extensive written test. At the time referee grades were divided up to be D, C, B, and A. I scored high enough to be a "C" while "D" was the lowest. Not great but not bad either. A friend of mine scored "B" on her first try! While one is supposed to go from "D" on up I didn't argue with the Master because he was either running the show or knew the guy who did. (By the way, I never got the official certificate but I eventually stopped training at that club anyway.) Besides this (which I admit was only one course) the club went to several tournaments a semester. I had the privilege of judging at some of them and was the corner for my WTF instructor on occasion. At the time Master Kyu Young Chai was fairly well known in USTU circles (at least in the Midwest) and was especially involved in tournament rule development. My point is this, I may not be an international referee for the WTF but I know that kicking an opponent from one end of the ring to the other with legal techniques to legal target areas with hardly an answering technique from the other party means (in the WTF's book) that you are the superior player. No everyone is a major league umpire but most of us know the rules of baseball (except the infield fly rule, what IS that, anyway?). PLEASE NOTE: I am not talking about me getting robbed of any victory I deserved. I merely said that I had seen pople make bad calls. End of story. It's my understanding that the ITF also has a comporable system of referee development. Last I knew there were two big divisions: "B" or national referee and "A" or international referee. Perhaps NGB's have another level or two for "trainees"? Any of you USTF or KATU people care to coment? Taekwon, Chris "Every experience of beauty points to infinity." Hans Urs von Balthasar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 10:13:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [none] ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #302 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.