From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #303 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Tues, 2 May 2000 Vol 07 : Num 303 In this issue: the_dojang: Oh Do Kwan and Chinese Origins of pyong ahn hyungs the_dojang: Reyes Sr/Jr. the_dojang: Teaching your own kids the_dojang: etiology of hapkido the_dojang: new thread---Uniforms the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #302 the_dojang: RE: Gen. Choi and the Olympics the_dojang: Stuff along the way the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #302 the_dojang: Visas/Passports the_dojang: Unquestioning LOyalty the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #301 the_dojang: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #298 the_dojang: Fwd: Letter in TKD Times the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #302 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #296 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #296 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #297 [none] ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 940 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 12:21:09 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Oh Do Kwan and Chinese Origins of pyong ahn hyungs Master Clay stated: Response:Master Clay, I believe that I remember reading in a couple of sources that there was some affiliation between Oh Do Kwan and Chung Do Kwan, though not as a direct subordinate or an active branch. Response: I agree that Korean Arts are generally looking for a direct link with Chinese arts rather than Japanese (Okinawan), and many claims are questionable. There is little question that ki cho hyungs were developed by the Japanese. It is my understanding that Itosu (an Okinawan) developed the Pyong ahn forms, initially 2, from an older chinese form that he considered to difficult for students to learn without prior knowledge. Eventually the 2 forms were broken into 5. I believe that Funikoshi wrote about this in one of his books, though I don't have them here in front of me. I also believe that Mr. Pat McCarthy wrote about this in one of his historical works. Mr. McCarthy's latest translation of Bubushi, which is actually a Chinese text, also contains some very interesting info on the development of martial arts in Okinawa and the strong influence of the Chinese arts. Just a point of interest, to me at least. Danny Dunn ------------------------------ From: Oregfightingarts@aol.com Date: Tue May 02 13:22:21 2000 Subject: the_dojang: Reyes Sr/Jr. I'm sure that Sr. did have a lot to do with the training of Jr., but I think in that situation there is a huge amount of natural talent in Jr. He was winning competitions (forms) when he was 6 years old, in adult divisions. Additionally, Ernie Reyes World MA, has many fantastic instructors from varied arts. With every addition of different art, the erwma seems to change its curriculum. Jr. has always had access to all of these other instructors....so Sr. may not have been the sole teacher of Jr....BTW, Jr. is promoting to 4th dan in June...I will be down in Calif. supporting a friend who is promoting to 3rd at the same testing, and will let everyone know how it went. Mark Gajdostik ------------------------------ From: "Mac" Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 12:31:57 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Teaching your own kids From: Robert Martin <> I train my own kids. Yes, when I began teaching children, I *really* worked on my patience. Prior to that, I had only taught adults or other instructors, usually more private/simi-privately as I was mostly taught. I think it has worked out great. I enjoy having something that both my kids and I can do together, kind of a father/daughter bonding experience thing. I don't push them. There have been times when they went 2.5 years between gup tests. They were just too young and not interested in improving. They go in spurts. I have really tried to catch them when they are open and interested.... which of course may be when they are supposed to be going to bed or cleaning up their rooms, etc (much to my wife's displeasure). A lot of times I ask them what they would like to do in class. They are a great feedback mechanism. I remember a time when I asked them if they were going to go to class with me that night, and I was asked "Are we going to do fun stuff or hard stuff?". Of course, now when they ask me what we are going to do tonight, I tell them fun stuff - to which they have been brainwashed to reply " Dad, it's all fun stuff".... guess I've trained them well :-) I ask their opinions a lot and try to involve them by discussing class, etc. I think when they really like it is when I work with them 1 on 1, more privately. They really get off to that. But there is only so much you can do before they get frustrated, board, etc. and are ready to move on or do something else. You have to be aware when they are finished - just as you need to be aware when they are ready and willing to work out. Otherwise, it becomes a push pull situation and is not so fun - everyone can get frustrated - them as student, and you as their instructor. Now my wife.... there is someone who doesn't like me bossing her around :-) She comes to class sometimes. She supprised me the other day and asked me to go over her forms with her at home. We still haven't done it yet - hasn't been the right time when she's in the mood - She is similar to the kids, I have to catch her when she is ready and willing, otherwise I'm pushing and she mentally pushes back. Good luck, Mac ------------------------------ From: danny alberts Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 11:29:04 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: etiology of hapkido > > From: Ray Terry > Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 7:54:39 PDT > Subject: the_dojang: Choi vs. Lee, and Choi > > > 1920s? The very earliest date one could think of using would be after the > death of Takeda Sensei and the return of CHOI Yong-sool to Korea and his > starting to teach Yawara (in the Hapki Yu Sool Kwan, i.e. the School of > Aiki-JuJutsu) in Taegu City, c1947. Yes? > I stand corrected - I misstated the only article I had read. This is why I am looking for references. In fact, due to the Japanese occupation, even if Hapkido was being developed in the 20's, it would not have been called such - since it would have been outlawed. (Now, I have to ask my student/instructor why he did not catch what you did) Question remains: who founded Hapkido? Choi, Yong Sul or Ji, Han Jae? Seems to be some confliction on this as well, depending upon who gets asked. Again, I appreciate opinions, but published references would be most appreciated. dalberts ------------------------------ From: Oregfightingarts@aol.com Date: Tue May 02 13:33:47 2000 Subject: the_dojang: new thread---Uniforms I recently received an email from another member on the list, who reminded me of a uniform incident a while back. In a nutshell, 2 wtf instructors, wearing v-neck uniforms with all sorts of insignia, patches, rank/club/judging certification emblems on the front, back, sleeves, collars, belts, and running down the sides of the pants, called the plain, black pants, red cross-top, basic Century issue uniform I was wearing...NOT TRADITIONAL. I know the basic dobok has usually been plain white, but I am curious what kinds of uniforms members on this list wear, colors of them, student vs. BB or Instrucor unif., and perhaps a history of the development of the uniform, whether historically significant or just a dojang trait. Train hard, Train right Mark Gajdostik ------------------------------ From: Robert Martin Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 11:35:45 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #302 >He doesn't have to give up anything except MONEY. Fork over the $35 membership dues annually >and take a shot. > >He can keep his NRA, IRA, ITF, USNTF, you name it..... needless to say if the USTU even >thought of restricting membership the EOC and the Civil Liberties people would be all over >their collective assets. So he would not have to give up his ITF Dan certificate? That is what concerns him the most, I think, as these certificates are irreplacealbe. By this I mean he wouldn't have to send the ITF certificate to Korea and receive a WTF certificate in return? Thanks Robert Martin ------------------------------ From: Robert Martin Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 11:43:59 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Gen. Choi and the Olympics Even into the early 1980 Gen. Choi was interested in the Olympics. This was the driving force behind the merger movement as the IOC was requiring that there be only one representative of Taekwon-Do in the world. This is still a concern of some member countries because of all the "taekwondo" organizations but with the current make up of the IOC board/officers I guess it doesn't really matter. Regards Robert Martin From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 8:11:01 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Gen. Choi and the Olympics > << It was also his goal and dream > to get TKD into the Olympics. >> > > IS this really true, Master Terry? In several interviews I read, Mr. > Hong Hi Choi spoke adamantly against taekwondo's inclusion in the Olympics. > He said that would destroy taekwondo as a martial art. His early press clippings indicate that he set a goal for the KTA of getting TKD into the Olympics. And we see that the KTA was formed as part of the Korean Athletic Association, similar to the AAU here in the US. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "J. R. West" Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 12:49:52 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Stuff along the way Allow me to take a moment to comment on a few things....FIRST; Many thanx to Ken McD for attending our seminar last weekend, but also for writing his thoughts about it, and by the way, his new '57 Chevy is BEAUTIFUL. SECOND: I don't know Gen Choi from the Easter Bunny as far as his personal ability is concerned, but allow a HapKiDo player to say this; All my instructors in VietNam were members of the M-21 TKD training corps, headed by Gen. Choi, and every one of his many instructors spoke of him as if he were the second coming, and these guys were VERY hard to impress. THIRD: If your martial arts specialty was "Tibetan Gopher Throwing", and you taught it in the Korean Army, you were teaching OhDukKwan TKD. All of my teachers were "OhDukKwan", but they all had a HapKiDo background ONLY. FOURTH: As far as teaching your own kids is concerned, when my 11 year old son Eric decided that he wanted to study HapKiDo, I brought him to the school and introduced him to one of my 4th dan students. During the introduction I advised Eric that I didn't want any questions asked about HapKiDo out of class, and that the 4th dan was his instructor, and that Eric would be the last to reach yellow belt, the last to reach green belt, etc., on up through black belt. When he was 15 and about to test for his 1st dan, he confided in me that at first he didn't understand my logic, but now realized that no-one EVER accused him of having been promoted based on WHO he was rather than WHAT he was, and the boundary between parent and instructor was never crossed. Sorry to go off in so many different directions........JRWEST www.hapkido.com ------------------------------ From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 14:02:57 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #302 In a message dated 5/2/00 10:19:44 AM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << I know some other people who have sent their kids to other schools or at least to classes in their schools that other instructors were teaching. >> I had to find a teacher for my 2 boys ... they didn't mind being the fall guy for me in classes when I needed to show the students something ... (they liked to think of themselves as stuntmen) ... but to actually really learn anything from me ... well, it just wasn't going over well. Maybe because they started in their teens in martial arts. Maybe if they had started earlier? Good luck with training your kids, tho! I have seen good results from alot of others working out together and then going out and doing demo's together ... at schools and at tournaments. Illona ------------------------------ From: "Christopher Spiller" Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 18:19:13 GMT Subject: the_dojang: Visas/Passports << It could also be that the WTF allegedly was going to revoke the visas of the Korean instructors who were overseas if they didn't join >> > Are you sure about this? The WTF is an International Sports > >Federation which is recognized by the International Olympic Committee >as >the worldwide governing body for taekwondo. It has no authority to >either >grant or revoke a Korean's visa. Perhaps I should rephrase here. I have heard on numerous occasions that the ROK GOVERNMENT had threatened to revoke visas and passports. One of the people telling me this was the student of a Korean instructor who DID eventually become WTF (formerly ITF). Does this make it true? No. Does it make it believable? I think so. >Furthermore, masters who leave Korea and establish thenmseves in >a 'new' >country often become citizens of their new homeland. I know >this is true >here in the US, especially if they have the desire to >move up in the >USTU's structure which requires US Citizenship to to >compete in national >events and to run for any elected State or >National office. This is indeed true. However, it takes seven years to become a US citizen last I knew. If this was all occuring in the 70s and most of the Korean instructors got here in the late 60s to early 70s there's a time gap. Also, the USTU is a newer organization, supplanting the AAU as WTF representative I have heard. I know the AAU now has a TKD program and are a B member of the USTU or something but I am talking about earlier. The citizenship requirements would have been hard to make if many if not most of the high ranking instructors weren't citizens as yet. I don't know about this but it would be interesting to find out. > The claim of the WTF revoking visas of non-joiners sure seems >dubious >to me. It ranks right up there with the 1970s rumpor that >the WTF was >working under cover with the KCIA in a program placing >Korean masters >around the world as a spy network. It was alleged that >the ROK >government, through their CIA, was paying these masters for >their espinage >work and that thier dojangs existed merely to help with >their "cover >stories." Anyone else hear this one? I don't know about dubious. Unproven maybe but not dubious. Wasn't Dr. Un Young Kim a member of the KCIA? There does seem to be a relationship between these two orgs. I am NOT, repeat NOT saying that the WTF is run by the KCIA or anything like that. But now one begins to see why people at least find this a believable story. Also, I have read excerpts of "The New Lords of the Rings" by Andrews Jennings and Dr. Kim is given a litle room in this book. I look forward to getting my own copy and reading the entire thing to see what else he has to say about the head of the WTF. Taekwon, Chris "Every experience of beauty points to infinity." Hans Urs von Balthasar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "Christopher Spiller" Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 19:01:54 GMT Subject: the_dojang: Unquestioning LOyalty << By the way, from the rest of yout post it DOES seem like you have a problem regarding "unquestioning loyalty" to Gen. Choi (see your Arlene Limas statement below). >> > Nowhere in my post did I write that "unquestioning loyalty" top >one's >master is not a good thing. I'm all for it. Extreme belief in >one's >master allows the student to accomplish feats he/she might never >have even >attempted in absence of such extreme loyalty. Loyalty >between master and >student, and student to master, also brings great >strength to one's >dojang, and, I believe to its members. NO you did not write those words. You may in fact believe that "Unquestioning loyalty" to one's master is good. But given your comments in the rest of your posting it seemed to me that you do NOT view "unquestioning loyalty" to GEN. CHOI to be good. You called him a dictator and implied that was the reason he found acceptance in the DPRK. I could be wrong but these statements do not seem to be positive. Also, I think that you may be engaging in the "Word-Thing Fallacy" here. Just because you do not SAY "unquestioning loyalty to Gen. Choi is bad" doesn't mean that your post does not contain this message. I can describe a dog without using the word "dog." see my point? By the way, I would hesitate to say that UNQUESTIONING loyalty is good. Taekwon, Chris "Every experience of beauty points to infinity." Hans Urs von Balthasar ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: TkdBPerry@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 15:28:25 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #301 Dear Mr. Martin: Simply if you are a US citizen living in the state where the qualifying state championship is held is enough. You will have to fill out the registration papers and apply for USTU competitor membership to enter. From there you will have to go through the qualifying process of USTU as it is the official National Governing Body for Taekwondo. Your affiliation with ITF can't hold you back. Knowing the rules and being coached by a caring coach who is experienced in USTU competition is quite a plus though. If you place at the state qualifier your journey begins with the recommendation (only routine) form there signed by the State Taekwondo Association President. Good luck. Bob Perry WTF International Referee In a message dated 5/2/00 11:07:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: > I hope somebody on the list could help with a question on USTU membership. > > I received an email from an ITF 2nd dan in the United States. (They know > that I am in contact with members of the WTF, etc. and also know that I am > descreate(sp).) This young man would like to make a run at the Olympics the > next time around or the time after that (he is only 16 or so - I think - > now). He doesn't want to give up his ITF/USTF status in order to do this. I > wondered what the USTU rules were on this and didn't really see anything on > their web site. I need to check with USTF headquaters to get our rules on > this. (I know we had some folks try several years ago but don't know what > happened to them.) > > Thanks in advance, > > Robert Martin ------------------------------ From: "Joseph F. Connolly, II" Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 15:14:23 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #298 On Monday, 1 May 2000, Kim G. Farral wrote: From: "Farral, Kim G" Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 10:35:44 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Military Rank Protocol "Mr. Connelly... I am not sure how recent your information is on ranks in the military and I agree with what you have stated, some clarification needs to be added to your statements...If you read my post towards the bottom of Digest #297 you will find that a one star is a General Brigadier General, but General all the same...As for titles, you are correct in the aspect that you never INTRODUCE an officer such as Lieutenant Colonel or Lieutenant Commander as either Colonel or Commander, but you may ADDRESS them in conversation as Colonel, Commander, or General...It is completely acceptable to do such, but when introducing them or introducing themselves, the FULL rank is ALWAYS given, i.e. 1st, 2nd, or JG for Lieutenant; Lieutenant for Commander or Colonel; Brigadier, Major, or Lieutenant for General, and Rear Lower Half, Rear Upper Half, Vice, or Fleet for Admiral...However, since I am a member of the Navy Reserve, I do not wish to speak on proper courtesy of the other Branches, though I have always followed this protocol when dealing with officers of the Armed Forces (and I have dealt with them all, including Generals due to the nature of my profession)...So far... I have never been corrected in my addressing of officers...but would appreciate any correction if in error." My information is current. You are correct, and you make my unspoken point even more strongly. The only exception that I would take to anything you have written is what you wrote at the bottom of Digest #297, and it is a very fine point. A Brigadier is an officer of general grade (as opposed to company or field grade), all the same he is not a General. Not wishing to make too fine a point of it, I will acknowledge that a Brigadier is a "General Officer", but he is NOT a General. Titles, as with all words, have meaning. If a title is to be used, it should be used properly. Within the profession of arms, intentional misuse of titles or awards is taken quite seriously. It was the senior admiral in the United States Navy who committed suicide when (falsely) accused of improperly wearing a simple device on a well-earned award. In writing about an individual holding the rank of Major General, it is proper etiquette to initially identify the individual as a Major General and to identify the military organization in which he held the rank, i.e. MG John Doe, U.S.A. or MajGen John Douglas, R.M., or even MajGen John Brown, R.A. (Retired) thereafter the individual may be referred to as "General" which is his title of "address" not his title of "rank". An individual who elects to continue using his military rank after retirement, inherently agrees to be held to the generally accepted standards of conduct for the profession of arms. One of those standards is that an individual who declares himself to hold a rank higher than he actually holds, is a bounder and a scoundrel. Every division commander in the United States Army is a Major General, but few get to wear four stars. I know of no retired Major General of the United States Army in well over two hundred years who has fashioned himself "General". At the end of the day, my point for supporters of Major General Choi - - whom I know nothing about other than what I have read and toward whom I have no feelings and doubt I ever will - would do much credit to General Choi if they would observe the protocols of his former profession, especially when writing outside their own Taekwon-do circles. You will help sustain his reputation, not detract from it. I doubt that I am the only former professional soldier on this pages and it is quite startling to read herein that a man continuously described as a ROK Army General, never was. This is especially important since General Paik Sun Yup, South Korea's first four-star general, has now published his excellent wartime memoirs, which is a book selection of the Association of the United States Army. Integrity is a standard by which military officers are measured, both by their superiors and their subordinates. Most possess the trait, unfortunately some do not. I have never met an officer whom I felt would want his military rank misrepresented. I have no reason to regard MajGen Choi as any different. My first purpose in writing was to seek the information of posed in my two questions. I received a full response and a partial response, although the partial response is apparently all that is currently known. My second for writing was to provide insight for the readers of the Digest, most especially the supporters of MajGen Choi, as to the existing standard in an aspect of etiquette not commonly taught today. Actually, I have little to add given your posting. You explained to them what should be done. Back in the dark ages, they used to teach such things in the public schools. Today they do not teach etiquette in university. If I had a leader who had, and used, a military title I would want to know how to use that title properly. You are fortunate in that your profession and your position at Boeing have received the benefit of your Naval Reserve education. I would hope that the information I have provided might help another practitioner, one who does not have the benefit of your training and experience. ------------------------------ From: "Carl W" Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 15:02:15 MDT Subject: the_dojang: Fwd: Letter in TKD Times Just a comment re: General Choi's recent interview in the TKD Times as appearing in the Readers Forum section of the May issue. > >> http://www.kick.nf.net/letter.htm Thanks Carl W. > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Ken Howard Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 16:31:16 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #302 Ken Howard khoward@cgc.ca > ---------- > Subject: Hapkido/Taekwondo Instructor in Minot > > I am trying to find the name/address/phone number etc.of a HKD/TKD school > in Minot ND. > I think the instructor's name is Tim and may be affiliated with ATA and > ran a tournament in the end of March. > > During the confusion of relocating our club we lost some of our files, > including my address list. > > Thanks. > ------------------------------ From: TKDSCRIBE@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 17:33:49 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #296 In a message dated 4/30/00 4:09:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: > Consider > >what will happen to the ITF when Gen. Choi dies, I have it on very good authority that Master Choi has named his successor. The only problem is that he has done so about fifty times, naming fifty different people all over the ITF world. Each of these men, one of whom is Master Chuck Seriff of Denver Colorado, believes he will be Master Choi's successor. It will be interesting to watch the fireworks that will occur with Master Choi's passage. SESilz ------------------------------ From: TKDSCRIBE@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 17:38:06 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #296 In a message dated 4/30/00 4:09:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: Dear List: The following is not a word in the English language. > irregardless ------------------------------ From: TKDSCRIBE@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 18:08:08 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #297 In a message dated 5/1/00 7:13:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: > I recently had a student who sent me an excerpt from a web page that > says that Grand Master Park Jung Tae, GTF, founded Taekwon-Do > and the Chang-Hon system (Chon-Ji through Tong-Il). If my memory still survives, Master Jung Tae Park was high up in the ITF structure back in the late 1970's or very early '80s as well as being a confidant to "General" Choi. A talented technician in demonstration, to be sure, too. Interesting to see that now he has created his "own style." SESilz ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 15:25:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [none] ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #303 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.