From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #306 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Wed, 3 May 2000 Vol 07 : Num 306 In this issue: the_dojang: Respect Goes Both Ways the_dojang: Kuk Sool Won the_dojang: Re: Choi Hong Hi the_dojang: RE: Gen. Choi, Taekwondo vs. Taekwon-Do, ITF leadership, etc. the_dojang: Master Clay-belts the_dojang: Re: Stuff Along the Way the_dojang: Does changing a name change lineage? the_dojang: Re: GM Benko the_dojang: Black Belt Article the_dojang: Re: traditional wtf uniform the_dojang: Re: ITF yudanja in WTF kyorugi the_dojang: Uniforms the_dojang: Re: irregardless, websters has a different opinion :) the_dojang: Re: for the nth time the_dojang: Re: Uniforms the_dojang: Praying Mantis k'ung hu Re: the_dojang: Does changing a name change lineage? Re: the_dojang: RE: Gen. Choi [none] ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 960 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LenGWhite@cs.com Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 23:22:15 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Respect Goes Both Ways Our 4th dan Master instructor is recognized as a master of technique, and is one of th few respected schools in our area, but recently, don't know why, he has gotten into several seemingly bad habits. Making promises to the kids - not kept. Leaving class or simply not turning up (one case recently where he left a 17 yr old 1st dan in charge of a class traiing for Nationals - including a very volatile young, probably bipolar kid). In the vein of maintaing respect for his skills, and station, it seems that we cannot approach him to let him know the risks of what he sis doing, or that his actions are noiced andresented in HIS school. Any suggestions as to how students can handle this situation without simply pulling up roots, or being disrespectful. LGW ------------------------------ From: HwarangTSD@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 23:19:46 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Kuk Sool Won I have a question about Kuk Sool Won. I have never experienced this art, or even seen it. I have heard people say it is similar to Hapkido, but I had been told by someone else that it was very similar to Kung Fu. Which is correct or are they both? What are the defining characteristsics of KSW? Kicking, Joint locks, etc. I've heard it said that each Kwan has its own specialty. What would Kuk Sool's specialy be? Thanks, Master Clay ------------------------------ From: MichaelChoi@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 23:29:47 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Choi Hong Hi Sorry, I honestly am not sure how Hong Hi Choi was involved in the Korean War. He claims that he briefed General MacArthur during the Korean War and he has a photo with MacArthur that I saw in Taekwondo Times. In reference to Hong Hi Choi fighting against the Communists forces of Kim Il-sung, I admit that I don't know what happened. (Probably a better source would be Dr. He Young Kimm, someone who is currently researching Korean martial arts history in an objective fashion.) Nonetheless, until Choi left the Republic of Korea (i.e., South Korea), he was an army officer of the ROK. With regards to being persecuted by Park, Chung Hee, my post was also based on Dr. Kimm's interview in Taekwondo Times. Choi claimed that various government officials and agents have tried to cajole or force Choi to return to Korea. It's Choi's claim. The only way we know for sure whether or not it happened is if we find witnesses that can substantiate his claims. Lastly, I am not an ITF member or supporter. I hold rank from Kukkiwon. Also, I do not subscribe to Communism. I believe in human liberty, the inherit worth of human life, and the existence of a higher being. I disagree that "religion is the opium of the poor," as Marx wrote in his Communist Manisfesto. Thank you for the news posting. The statements that Choi made (if he did) with regards to Kim, Il-sung and Kim, Jong-il are very disappointing. North Korea is a repressive regime that permitted their people to starve and their country's economy to collapse just to keep their country closed off and "self-reliant." One thing is for sure. I share the dream of all Koreans, South and North, that one day our people will be unified and enjoy prosperity and prestige in Asia as we enjoyed prior to Japan's annexation. Sincerely, Michael Choi ------------------------------ From: Robert Martin Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 07:07:37 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Gen. Choi, Taekwondo vs. Taekwon-Do, ITF leadership, etc. To the list: I guess I just can't help myself. I feel compelled to respond. 1. Use of titles: Common usage, at least in English, allows for the use of the word "General" to refer to anyone who has earned a single star in military service. I believe other military system from around the world are somewhat different. The Random House Dictionary states "an officer of any of the five highest ranks: a brigadier general, major general, lieutenant general, general, or general of the army". The most recent addition to the list of "famous" persons who are referred to as General would be Norman Swartzkopf (sp?) who retired with 3 stars, I believe. 2. NGB or National Governing Body When referring to the Olympics this does mean the organization charged with overseeing a sport. However, the term is used by many other organizations to refer to their national groups. I have seen the term used to indicate governmental agencies such as congress. 3. "Coming to America" I assume that Gen. Choi moved to Canada for the same reason that millions of other people moved to North America: political and religious freedom. The political climate in South Korea had changed enough that Gen. Choi thought it safer to leave the country. This has been the situation for many millions of other peoples during the past 500 years. Many other Martial Artists did the same thing before and after him. 4. Taekwondo vs. Taekwon-Do The basic problem, to my mind at least, is that their are two martial arts with similar names. The art that evolved under Gen. Choi became Taekwon-Do and is unified under the ITF. The art that evolved under a group of kwan leaders in South Korea is Taekwondo and is represented by the WTF. From my own experience it appears that the WTF is a collection of independent kwans that joined together to create and promote an Olympic sport. To keep at least a link to the original Taekwon-Do the name was slightly changed to Taekwondo and Kukkiwon was formed to provide certification for the group. I don't mean any disrespect to Kukkiwon or WTF persons. This just appears to be how things are from my own WTF days and how I see things now. 5. Future leadership of the ITF This is pure speculation on all our parts. I'm going to add my bit in here from conversations I've had with seniors in the ITF including Grand Master Sereff and Master Sereff. The future leader of the ITF will most likely (90%) be Korean. The chances of it being one of the two Korean Grand Masters is about 50-50. The same goes for Gen. Choi's son - Master Choi. There has been speculation that it maybe someone from outside ITF Taekwon-Do. I do know that GM Sereff has no desire to take over (this from his own mouth) but would do so if asked. He is 65 years old himself and would like to spend more time with his grandchildren. In any case, Gen. Choi has indicated that he will announce his retirement next year at the World Championships. (He will be near 83 at that time.) I hope we can put this thread to bed for a while and get on to other things. Regards, Robert Martin ------------------------------ From: Oregfightingarts@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 00:02:28 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Master Clay-belts << . Instructors must have a midnight blue belt for all formal events. >> Master Clay, Why is the color of midnight blue significant? Curious, Mark Gajdostik ------------------------------ From: CBAUGHN@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 00:11:33 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Stuff Along the Way << Sorry to go off in so many different directions........JRWEST >> All I can say is... I'd sure like to sit down to talk with you (or I should say, listed to you talk) about martial arts for an hour or two. You're a very impressive person, Master West. Sally cbaughn@aol.com ------------------------------ From: danny alberts Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 22:35:47 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Does changing a name change lineage? > From: ICyrus8528@aol.com > Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 21:55:59 EDT > Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #300 > > Mr Albert: Give me alittle time. I will do my best to dig up this info for > you. This info is somewhere in my many boxes of stuff. However, with respect > to Gen. Choi and the creation of Oh Do Kwan (My Way Gym) and eventually > Taekwondo, Chung Do Kwan provided the platform for him to do what he has > done. Since I inherited the art of ChoSon Kwon Bup (aka ChoSonDo), I have > added, modified, and changed things to give it my own personal touch. Let's > say I decided to change the name to Shim Sin Do or something like that, does > that really change anything? To me, what's important is acknowldeging one's > roots. This is what "Lineage" is all about. > > Ian A. Cyrus Thank you Mr. Cyrus - please take the time. I would appreciate it. Now on to your scenario. Based on what you described, I would certainly agree with you. But I see an entirely different scenario. It is my experience that the General's Taekwon-Do is indeed quite different from WTF Taekwondo, and all of the various US hybrids of Taekwondo and Taekwon-Do schools because of the following: 1. ITF Taekwon-Do emphasizes the 'Do' as the reason for studying the art. (Even the words Taekwon-Do and Taekwondo are pronounced differently.) I did not get that sense at all in Taekwondo schools. ( I have lived and/or studied in 8 cities from Colorado to Virginia, Connecticut to Arizona, fairly evenly dispersed between, including strong multi-school circuits in St. Louis and Colorado.) The ITF schools I have been involved with are in Colorado, Chicago, and Connecticut - too many literally to count over the years. The WTF schools I have been involved with are in Virginia - 3 different ones. All the rest were independent or claim loose affiliation with either the WTF or ITF (which in my mind is only a sales gimmick - they have no real affiliation at all). 2. ITF patterns are done exactly the way the General describes them in his books, no more, no less. This is *not* what other schools do with his patterns. I even have a WTF training video tape of the WTF patterns, and they are the Chang Hon patterns (Chon-Ji through Choon Chang - white belt through 2nd Dan (at least mostly 2nd Dan). 3. The General created these patterns for Taekwon-Do. They did not exist beforehand in Tang Soo Do or in Chung Do Kwan or in Oh Do Kwan. 4. ITF techniques are practiced and performed using the sine-wave. WTF TKD, other independent TKDs, Moo Do Kwan, Chung Do Kwan "lineages" use the Japanese method of physical posturing to deliver power - easy to understand because of the Japanese influence on Korean martial arts. (I know this because not only have I attended some of these schools, but I teach at a university where we get a heterogeneous martial art student population. Additionally, my wife attained her 1st Gup in Chung Do Kwan in her previous life). The General says he created the word Taekwon-Do and I have already described his reasons in frequent past posts. Many disagree that he did create even the word. The General does not dispute the lineage of which martial arts went into Taekwon-Do, but the way I view it, the Taekwon-Do he (ITF) teaches is quite different from other Taekwon-Do styles, including its precursors. When I studied the Japanese style of Gojo Ryu, it had been altered by an American who called his style Shorei Gojo Ryu. The same was done to another Japanese style taught in my locale, and it was renamed to Gishite. It seems to me that other than renaming Taekwon-Do to Taekwondo, and even other variations such as Tae Kwon Do, there is no other distiction in the naming. This is unfortunate and quite confusing for the average practitioner as well as lay person. In fact, it seems to me that way too many instructors and their schools, whether independent or federated, are riding the coat tails of the martial art that the General developed/enhanced/named/whatever and insists on calling Taekwon-Do. I have been sent some interesting reading by a group member which I need to research further. And this will all take awhile. But with everything I have learned so far, I believe at this point that when someone asks me who developed and applied the name for Taekwon-Do, in other words, who founed Taekwon-Do, I have to answer that it was General Choi - regardless of the slight variations of the name spelling that have developed since. dalberts ------------------------------ From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 01:30:39 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: GM Benko Thanks for the info on GM Benko Tink! ------------------------------ From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 01:36:40 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Black Belt Article Thanks to everyone who wrote on the list and in private about my recent article in Black Belt. I am happy with the way it was done. My only complaint was that Yi-saeng was edited out. The part that says the relationships formed while living in Korea was the most important part went on to emphasize the relationship with her. But that happens in the writing biz. Overall, I am pleased with the article, and think it adds something different to Black Belt's usual fare. I hope to get quite a few articles written this summer, as well as another book and shoot another video. Thanks for all your support and encouragement on my projects. My goal is to put out information that will help people on the journey we are all traveling together. Yours in Training, Alain Burrese ------------------------------ From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 01:37:29 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: traditional wtf uniform In a message dated 5/2/00 3:28:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << In a nutshell, 2 wtf instructors, wearing v-neck uniforms with all sorts of insignia, patches, rank/club/judging certification emblems on the front, back, sleeves, collars, belts, and running down the sides of the pants, called the plain, black pants, red cross-top, basic Century issue uniform I was wearing...NOT TRADITIONAL. >> LOL! as a wtf practitioner: traditional would actually be the karate style wrap uniform in white. but nowadays it's the white v-neck/white lapel pullover for guppies and a white v-neck/black lapel pullover for dan ranks. emblems, pictures, butt flap art (talking 'bout the uniform here, people), patches, pins, iron ons, insignia, stripes, hash marks, are all at the discretion (which is sometimes scary) of the individual student and/or instructor/school owner type person :) melinda ChunjiDo -pe rsonal homepage http://hometown.aol.com/chunjido/homehtmlindex.html www.Chajonshim.com Martial Arts Supply now featuring a shopping cart for your convenience! :) Paidforsurf.com - - Main - get paid 75cents/hr to surf the net...i do! Looking for enlightenment is like looking for a flashlight, when all you need the flashlight for is to find the flashlight. ------------------------------ From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 01:39:34 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: ITF yudanja in WTF kyorugi In a message dated 5/2/00 3:28:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << So he would not have to give up his ITF Dan certificate? That is what concerns him the most, I think, as these certificates are irreplacealbe. By this I mean he wouldn't have to send the ITF certificate to Korea and receive a WTF certificate in return? Thanks Robert Martin >> i believe he would only have to give up his ITF dan certificate if the ITF had a problem with him belonging to a WTF national governing body like the USTU. melinda ChunjiDo -pe rsonal homepage http://hometown.aol.com/chunjido/homehtmlindex.html www.Chajonshim.com Martial Arts Supply now featuring a shopping cart for your convenience! :) Paidforsurf.com - - Main - get paid 75cents/hr to surf the net...i do! Looking for enlightenment is like looking for a flashlight, when all you need the flashlight for is to find the flashlight. ------------------------------ From: Chris S Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 00:49:39 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Uniforms >From: Oregfightingarts@aol.com >Date: Tue May 02 13:33:47 2000 >Subject: the_dojang: new thread---Uniforms > >I recently received an email from another member on the list, who reminded me of a uniform incident a while back. >In a nutshell, 2 wtf instructors, wearing v-neck uniforms with all sorts of insignia, patches, rank/club/judging >certification emblems on the front, back, sleeves, collars, belts, and running down the sides of the pants, called >the plain, black pants, red cross-top, basic Century issue uniform I was wearing...NOT TRADITIONAL. I know the >basic dobok has usually been plain white, but I am curious what kinds of uniforms members on this list wear, colors >of them, student vs. BB or Instrucor unif., and perhaps a history of the development of the uniform, whether >historically significant or just a dojang trait. > Train hard, Train right > Mark Gajdostik Mark, In all the dojangs I have been in, the uniforms have been white, some used v-neck, other dojangs used split type tops. Some required a patch, but one I was in wanted what I thought was a huge number of patches and uniform decals. I personally am not a big fan of lots of uniform decorations. As for the different uniforms not being traditional, I suppose it depends on the dojang. Some of the ones in college were very lax in uniforms, but this probably had something to do with so many of the students being transient, and coming from a wide variety of martial arts backgrounds. The ones I went to as a kid and teenager were relatively strict on uniforms. Chris ------------------------------ From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 01:49:32 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: irregardless, websters has a different opinion :) In a message dated 5/2/00 3:28:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << From: TKDSCRIBE@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 17:38:06 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #296 In a message dated 4/30/00 4:09:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: Dear List: The following is not a word in the English language. > irregardless >> oh, i wish i could find the discussion we had on this before, master silz....but i cant. it was over a year ago when you plucked this out of a post and stated your opinion on the matter. actually, it is a word according to webster. i believe we've argued.... um... er.... debated this before .....then there was the definition of "nitpick" posted right after it...lol. i think i'll spare our fellow readers the boring details this time. they might kick me. melinda ChunjiDo -pe rsonal homepage http://hometown.aol.com/chunjido/homehtmlindex.html www.Chajonshim.com Martial Arts Supply now featuring a shopping cart for your convenience! :) Paidforsurf.com - - Main - get paid 75cents/hr to surf the net...i do! Looking for enlightenment is like looking for a flashlight, when all you need the flashlight for is to find the flashlight. ------------------------------ From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 01:54:32 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: for the nth time In a message dated 5/2/00 6:16:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << People: For the nth time: Any US Citizen may compete in a USTU sanctioned event provided that he/she registers for the USTU in that year. Naturally they must compete under the WTF/USTU rule structure. You do not have to renounce Jesus, nor your old martial arts affiliations, if any. You don't even need to have studied martial art. All you must do to make the Olympic team is 1. Register with the USTU, and 2. defeat everyone else in your weight class. SESilz >> please remember, sir, that not everyone has the same great deal of experience and knowledge in regard to the USTU & WTF as do you. for them its the first time. not the nth time. please share your knowledge with the rest of us....and refrain from belittling those of us who are ignorant. melinda ChunjiDo -pe rsonal homepage http://hometown.aol.com/chunjido/homehtmlindex.html www.Chajonshim.com Martial Arts Supply now featuring a shopping cart for your convenience! :) Paidforsurf.com - - Main - get paid 75cents/hr to surf the net...i do! Looking for enlightenment is like looking for a flashlight, when all you need the flashlight for is to find the flashlight. ------------------------------ From: Kim Jones Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 00:54:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Uniforms We go by Kukkiwon standards here...white uniform with a black v-neck for adults (poom [black and red like a junior black belt] v-neck for the children), Korean and U.S. flag on the left side, WTF patch on the right (I might have switched those), and Taekwondo in English and Hangul on the back. My uniform is much plainer than most everyone else's because I lack those patches and Taekwondo written across the back...but it's still a black v-neck. The black belts have the name embroidered in English (with the exception of the two KATUSAs who probably had their names embroidered in Hangul) and the Korean Taekwondo Association written in Hangul. Not to demean anyone, but I think uniforms with lots of unnecessary patches on it are GAUDY. A plain uniform will take you anywhere...which is why after my first uniform that had lots of patches on it doesn't ever see the light of day. Besides, don't most state, national and international competitions prohibit excessive decorations aside from the state (or country) name on the back and maybe the manufacturer's logo on it? Ten won worth from the ROK. ===== ~~Kim Jones (*ladytimberland@yahoo.com*) http://kenochi_timberland.tripod.com/ ICQ: 52828008 AOL: Lady Timberland "The path of excess leads to the tower of wisdom." Enigma, "Gravity of Love" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: burdickd Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 07:11:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: the_dojang: Praying Mantis k'ung hu Ray Terry asked: >But do we know who GM Suh's Kung Fu instructor was? Not for sure Ray, but we do know that Poom-Chang Lim (1910-1982) taught Praying Mantis in Soul while Kyung-Ban Kang (1912-) taught it in Pusan, so Kang is a likely candidate. Sorim k'ung hu (Shaolin gong-fu) was taught in Soul, as well as P'algwae (Bagua). Those seem to have been the only three k'ung hu systems in Korea in abundance in the 1950s and 1960s. Dakin Burdick burdickd@indiana.edu PS: I've got a picture of hapkido practice at a temple that I'd like to identify. It could be Pulguksa or another temple near Pusan (or Taegu for that matter). Anybody know any books with those temples in them? I've got _Korea the Beautiful_ but can't make a positive identification from there. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 6:53:47 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: Does changing a name change lineage? > 4. ITF techniques are practiced and performed using the sine-wave. However there are a great many ITF instructors that don't like or use the Sine Wave. Seems to mostly be those that have been in the ITF for a very long time. This appears to be at least one area in which there is some degree of freedom within the ITF. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 6:59:20 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: RE: Gen. Choi > 4. Taekwondo vs. Taekwon-Do > The basic problem, to my mind at least, is that their are two > martial arts with similar names. Umm, looks like the same name to me. Check the hangul, yep, same name. :) > From my own experience it appears that the WTF is a collection of > independent kwans that joined together to create and promote an Olympic > sport. IMHO more correctly, Taekwondo is a collection of independent kwans that joined together 40 years ago, with Gen. Choi as one of the very early leaders, to create a national martial art & sport and to get that national sport into the Olympics. And with great success. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 06:46:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [none] ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #306 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.