From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #311 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thur, 4 May 2000 Vol 07 : Num 311 In this issue: the_dojang: re: midnight blue the_dojang: re:KSW the_dojang: Tang Soo Do Belts the_dojang: KSW the_dojang: changing the rules the_dojang: Re: Changing the rules in Mid Game the_dojang: Re: yes!!! cho dan!!!! the_dojang: Loyalty, Testing and Money the_dojang: Re: garbageman the_dojang: Re: netiquette the_dojang: Re: Changing the Rules Mid-game the_dojang: Hoodwinked students the_dojang: Kuk Sool Won Hap Ki Do Re: the_dojang: Re: netiquette the_dojang: Re: Signature Style the_dojang: Re: Changing The Rules Mid-Game ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 960 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HwarangTSD@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 01:24:51 EDT Subject: the_dojang: re: midnight blue If you could point me in the direction of that reference i'd appreciate it mac. The gentleman I asked had trained in Korea, but not as early as the black/blue thing was supposed to have occured. I really hate teaching the wrong material, so i'd like to get it right. Thanks, Master Clay ------------------------------ From: HwarangTSD@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 01:26:23 EDT Subject: the_dojang: re:KSW Thanks Mac. I have been told that KSW is the name of the org. and not the art. If this is true, what is the art called. All the books i have seen say Kuk Sool and I think a few have said Kuk Sool Won. Thanks, Master Clay ------------------------------ From: "Moja Kwan - C. Richards" Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 01:32:51 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Tang Soo Do Belts Pine Tree (Sang Moo Sa) sells yudanja and kodanja dee (belts) in black OR MIDNIGHT. try http://www.sakura-0.com/cgi/sakura/web_store.cgi I think proforce also sells a midnight belt, that is a little less. Sang Moo Sa also sells midnight tops? I think? Yes, here in America the Blackbelt is a lot easier to find. I will be following Masters Clay and MacHenry's thread to find out about the chicken and the egg. After much meditation I went with Black for a number of reasons, but understand the Midnight concept. Best Wishes, Charles Richards Moja Kwan TSD ------------------------------ From: "Moja Kwan - C. Richards" Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 01:47:26 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: KSW <> Master Mac, I'll have to differ sir. I have a Hapkido Sun Moo Kwan patch from my circa 1994 yellow belt days. It has the pentagon, tang bong in fist and double dan kums *unique* to KSW. The Sun Moo Kwan Jang Kum Hyung is almost Identical to In Hyuck Suh/Hollanders Book. Yes, like Hwa Rang Do, the uniforms have a kinda Chinese look at the kodanja levels. I beleive KSW is based on *Royal Palace Martial Arts* and thus includes controlling type kwan jeh sul and also the use of Kup so (pressure points) as does Sun Moo Kwan Hapkido. This style of Hapkido appears to be circular and fluid in its footwork (More Chinese that Hard style Karate). We (HKDSMK) also learn Yu Sool (which is the same kanji/han ja) as Chin Na and not surprising to see some *Chinese* influence. Yours in training, Charles Richards Atlanta Hapkido 5th Gup US Hapkido Sun Moo Kwan ------------------------------ From: Oregfightingarts@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 01:55:22 EDT Subject: the_dojang: changing the rules Mr. Foley, This is indeed a difficult situation. I very good friend of mine recently decided to switch his dojang to a different system. The one he was doing was very good, and very similar to mine, as we had joint owned a school back in the late 80's, but he seemed to be lacking the drive he used to have....different situation, but same results. The switchover is stillnot complete, and I still train with he and his students once a week. I have had a number of requests...especially from his higher gup ranks, and even a couple BB, for me to train them at my school. I disagree with the new philosophy/training as well, but I have encouraged all the askers to wait for at least 9 months to see if they really want to switch instructors. The gups feel slighted, and the dans dont feel like learning a bunch of new stuff, and being told disregarding their current knowledge. If after a while, they still want to switch, I will welcome them. Many people resist all change whether good or bad. The new owners of your school may have better ways of doing things....better methods, more of a knowledge base...different yes, but maybe better. Those that are gup ranks may not like the new BB waiting period, but that training may improve them and make them better BB in the long run. BB is just the beginning...not the end to training....it is a great goal, but look to the long run, we are never finished training. It took me a good number of years to reach BB, because I moved around a lot. I have worn a white belt many times in many systems, only to wear it once again a few years ago when I started in yet another art....no big deal. I look back to when I was given my 1st BB. The people I promote now are WAAAAYYY better than I was at that rank. The things I learned after BB, and pass on to students now, are very different than I had as a 9 gup/1st dan....and they are better because of the new ways and new knowledge.....give the new stuff a chance...it may be beneficial....but in the end, you have to be happy in your training. Good Luck, Mark Gajdostik OFA/TNT ------------------------------ From: foxdragon@cuttingedge.net Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 06:19:03 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Changing the rules in Mid Game > But I do feel they are justified in their feelings. Has this been tried > anywhere else? The move is seen as an attempt to lock students in after > black belt, which is admittedly a common stopping point for students, > regardless of how you emphasis it as a beginning, not an end. The students > think the change is only about money and are pretty upset. I am probably > going to be approached by several to join my school, and ordinarily I would > not accept them, but the circumstances are muddled. I am torn between the > issues of loyalty to your instructor and fairness to the student. > > Any ideas? Rick, as a student that is very close to testing for first dan BB I can understand where they are coming from. If you feel that this was unfair then take them on. If you don't take them on for reasons of staying in good standing with this school then suggest where they might go. I think I would be very upset at this changing of rules and express it to these Masters. On test day was not the time to announce this. Donna - -- Me and my shadow ------------------------------ From: "Dana Vaillancourt" Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 04:35:00 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: yes!!! cho dan!!!! Congrats Kim. Welcome to the ranks of advanced-beginners, but with more responsibility!! Dana >From: Kim Jones >Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 07:00:13 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: the_dojang: yes!!! cho dan!!!! > >The results from the Easter Sunday Kukkiwon first degree black >belt tests are in: I made it!!!!!!!! I'll be getting my belt >in a couple weeks (before I turn the magic 18) and certificate >within the next month or so. Whew! Just passing the news on. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: LAHapkido@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 07:32:47 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Loyalty, Testing and Money Mr./ Master Foley, It appears to me that some decisions need to be made. If the people that bought your Masters Dojang, have decided to make changes in their promotion policy then that is their choice. However I feel that it is indeed a great disservice to the Black Belt candidates that have been looking forward to receiving their Black Belt. I had a similar situation at my Dojang. A young man had been training at another school for about 4 years and was recommended for his Black Belt test. He took the test was told that he was one of the Best that had ever been tested at this school. When all was said and done he was informed that before he could receive his certificate or belt he would have to be on a 6 month trail period and in addition he would have to sign a renewal contract for a minimum of 2 years. Personally I, feel if this is what the Martial Arts have come to it may be time for me to retire. Do you still have contact with your Master? What are his feeling on this matter? Have you spoke to the new owners of the Dojang? What prompted this action? In all fairness if this is the way that they want to conduct business it is their Dojang. However you may want to suggest that they wait and put this into effect at a later date. Loyalty is not a one sided commodity. Follow your heart, remember why you opened your school and make your own decision. These people came to you, you did not go to them. If you can help them and reach an understanding then everyone will benefit. Isn't that the bottom line. ( Mutual Benefit). Sorry that I rambled on and good luck. I'm sure that you will make the right choice. Kwan Jang Dan Rogers ------------------------------ From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 07:51:07 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: garbageman it's come to my attention that garbageman.com doesnt work. for those who were interested, the link is: http://www.waveop.com/garbageman/index.htm sorry bout the bad link on that!! melinda ChunjiDo -pe rsonal homepage http://hometown.aol.com/chunjido/homehtmlindex.html www.Chajonshim.com Martial Arts Supply now featuring a shopping cart for your convenience! :) The Hunger Site - Donate Food for Free to Hungry People in the World just click the button and food is donated. no cost to you! it's free! you can donate once daily (you can e-mail yourself the link everyday as a reminder :). Looking for enlightenment is like looking for a flashlight, when all you need the flashlight for is to find the flashlight. ------------------------------ From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 07:53:18 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: netiquette In a message dated 5/3/00 10:14:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Come on folks. Lets try to keep those sigs down to 6 lines or less. More isn't really proper netiquette. Thanks. Ray Terry >> hmm. interesting that it hasnt bothered you til now, ray. glad to oblige. melinda ChunjiDo -pe rsonal homepage http://hometown.aol.com/chunjido/homehtmlindex.html www.Chajonshim.com Martial Arts Supply now featuring a shopping cart for your convenience! :) The Hunger Site - Donate Food for Free to Hungry People in the World just click the button and food is donated. no cost to you! it's free! ------------------------------ From: dbuehrer@denver.carl.org Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 07:07:06 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Changing the Rules Mid-game >From: Emactkd@aol.com > >I have a problem that I am unhappy with, and maybe some clear ideas can come >from the list. Maybe. I hope. > >Three gentlemen now own my instructor's school, my instrucor having retired >and moved back to Korea. My instructor had asked me to buy his school, but >I was unable to arrange the financing he was looking for and had to pass. I >had my own school at the time, a full time job as well, no partner and >limited funds and also was hesitant to try to fill his shoes in his dojang. >I have stayed in good contact with the new owners, and have on occasion been >on their test board. > >THe problem: 4 weeks prior to their next black belt test they announced that >they would NOT be awarding black belts, but would put a stripe on the >student's belt, and award the black belt in six months, and the certificate >in another six months. These students have been under scrutiny for at least >8 months as candidates, and were expecting that if they passed the next test, >they would receive their black belt. > >The students feel hoodwinked, and I have been approached indirectly to see if >I would accept them for testing at my next test. (Of course not!) > >But I do feel they are justified in their feelings. Has this been tried >anywhere else? The move is seen as an attempt to lock students in after >black belt, which is admittedly a common stopping point for students, >regardless of how you emphasis it as a beginning, not an end. The students >think the change is only about money and are pretty upset. I am probably >going to be approached by several to join my school, and ordinarily I would >not accept them, but the circumstances are muddled. I am torn between the >issues of loyalty to your instructor and fairness to the student. Your instructor no longer owns that school. How does taking on students from that school imply that you are being disloyal to your instructor? As for fairness to the students, what the three owners of that school are doing does not seem fair to me. To further compound that by refusing to accept them as students at your school would make matters worse, IMHO, and could give martial arts a black eye in your community. From a purely business standpoint you can take advantage of the other school's mistake and add students to your school. From a community standpoint you have an opportunity to positively reflect on martial arts by putting the students first. From a personal standpoint you have an opportunity to help some people out who appear to be getting screwed by an unsavory business decision. All IMHO. To Life, - -David Buehrer 6th Gup, Hapkido http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3 - -- "Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday ... and all is well." ------------------------------ From: "J. R. West" Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 08:25:03 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Hoodwinked students You have hit on one of my per peeves in the area of Martial Art management. When someone is selected to test at my school, a date is picked, a belt is ordered along with a new top, and a certificate is ordered as well. Upon passing the "test" (if I put them up as ready, it seems to me the test is a foregone conclusion), he or she receives all of the above on that day. If I feel that if I should withhold a belt or certificate for an extended period of time, it means that I should not have selected this person to test in the first place. If you pay a testing fee, the instructor should give you all that comes with passing the test. I was asked over 20 years ago to test for a 4th dan in TKD (why, I don't know) but the 8th dan in charge and I had some issues and he never gave me my certificate even though I passed the test unanimously, in fact he put it on the wall of his office with a big red X through it. He took great delight in showing me the certificate on several occasions, and years later he informed me that he would go to his grave with my cert rather than give it to me. I advised this sorry individual that I was first and foremost a HapKiDo player and TKD rank was unimportant to me, and secondly, the piece of paper obviously meant more to him than to me, and if I really wanted it, all I had to do was send the cert. # to Korea along with $10 to get a replacement. If you select someone for testing and they pass the test, give them their belt and certificate on the spot, holding it like a carrot in front of them only causes trouble and mistrust down the line, and the students in question SHOULD feel "hoodwinked"....JRWEST www.hapkido.com ------------------------------ From: "Rudy Timmerman" Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 02:20:48 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Kuk Sool Won Hap Ki Do Greetings: My name is Rudy W. Timmerman. I am new to the list and I enjoy it. I have studied martial arts since 1950, and my bio can be read at www.nkmaa.ca. This is not a shameless plug for my web site, but simply an attempt to give you some background on my qualifications regarding the message I wish to share. A question has floated around this and other lists about the difference between Kuk Sool and Hap Ki Do. Master Bruce Sims did an admirable job of explaining much of this, but for some of us, the difference is simply a political issue to avoid trademark issues. Since I recently (1998) resigned my post as Director of the World Kuk Sool Association for Canada and the state of Michigan, I must impress on the readers that my post is simply a personal observation and is not representative of the position or philosophies of WKSA or its Grand master Suh In Hyuk. After 8 years of studying Jiu Jitsu in Holland, I moved to Canada in 1958 and began to study what was then known as Kuk Sool Won Hap Ki Do. Certification, at that time, came from Korea and was signed by Grand master Suh In Hyuk and countersigned by Grand master Pak In Shyuk under whom I studied the art. In the early 1970=B9s, with the permission of both Instructors, I attended the first Kuk Sool seminar in the US, and I came away with the distinct feeling that something was awry between the two Grand masters. Later, it became apparent that a split had indeed occurred between the two. No longer did we call our art Kuk Sool Won Hap Ki Do, and the two Grand masters drifted apart. More on this split can be found in our web site, which also contains a reference to an article by Grand master Kimm He Young about this very subject. I must point out that our training after that split did not immediately change a significant amount. So the Rose may have had a different name, but it still was a Rose. Kuk Sool Won Hap Ki Do, as I learned it, could be considered a Kwan Yu Sool art. It emphasized equally the hard and soft aspects. It included, but is not limited to, joint locks, pressure points, throwing, falling, weapons, kicking, punching, and host of self-defense techniques. I continued to teach this art in my school until my Instructor, Pak In Shyuk, vanished. After his disappearing act, I began to study directly under GM Suh In Hyuk. At once, it became apparent that the curriculum had changed. Kuk Sool (without Hap Ki Do), as it was now taught by GM Suh, seemed to focus more on the soft aspect of our original art, and it no longer used some of the harder techniques. Palm strikes were also favored over punches; however, this could be a result of GM Suh's favoring his extraordinary expertise with palm strikes. The new curriculum had also dropped a substantial number of techniques; however, THE major difference I encountered in the Kuk Sool stances which were much lower and more narrow. The lower stances may be a direct result of the influence of GM Suh's eldest son, Master Suh Sung Jin. GM Suh, as can be seen in the pictures of his textbooks, does not use as low a stance himself. While this may be related to age, his stances look more like the ones we used before the split occurred. Many martial artists attribute the lower stances to the Kung Fu influence that seems apparent in Kuk Sool. Although the WKSA is proud of the fact that all WKSA schools use the same curriculum, there are significant differences between Kuk Sool schools even today. This becomes immediately apparent when you look at the Venezuelan schools which look much more like the Dahn Mu Do schools in Canada (a different Kuk Sool faction not under the WKSA umbrella). Even the students of schools under my influence continued to perform slightly different. The influence of my old Instructor is still quite apparent. A major drive to "fix" these problems has been the focus of WKSA seminars for a number of years now, and this is perhaps why some readers are disappointed in the recent Kuk Sool seminars. In my humble opinion, this is futile. There is even a significant difference between GM Suh and the heir to the Kuk Sool throne, Master Suh Sung Jin. My experience is that martial arts are taught with the flavor of the immediate Instructor, and this is simply a matter of using one's personal expertise as an advantage to look best. We just need to be careful not to eliminate techniques that are better suited for others, and I have seen many novice Instructors make this mistake. Grand master Suh's vision for Kuk Sool, according to what I gleaned from many hours of discussions with him, was to preserve traditional Korean martial arts. Since the borders between China and Korea shifted with the fortunes of war, GM Suh included the martial art techniques found in that border region. To my understanding, he never tried to emulate Kung Fu, and to my recollection no Kung Fu instructor was ever mentioned during these discussions (or in his books). His main interest is in the preserving of ALL Korean martial arts. The very name of his organization, and his title "Kuk Sa Nim" seem to support this. Both names indicate the National flavor of the art and founder. To give readers an idea of the original Kuk Sool Won Hap Ki Do curriculum, one only needs to look at the textbooks written by GM Kimm He Young. The curriculum I learned from Grand master Pak In Shyuk contained nearly the entire curricula of both books, although the order may be somewhat different. Grand master Pak later revised and added some more grappling techniques to that curriculum and gave it the name of Kong Shin Bup. Later, Grand master Pak went on to found yet another martial art "Tae Kyuk Do", and I received the seals to this art and was appointed its successor before he passed away. A letter to this effect is in my possession. I registered Kong Shin Bup as a government recognized non profit association. As far as I can see, the entire split is likely a political issue, and the change has only had a minor affect on the manner in which our original art is taught today. Both arts are great, and both Grand masters were excellent instructors. If the curriculum of Hap Ki Do, the way it is depicted by GM Kimm He Young, is acceptable as legitimate Hap Ki Do, and if his Kuk Sool textbook is similarly acceptable, the difference can best be found in those documents. GM Kimm is an extremely knowledgeable martial artist, and I see little reason to doubt his accounts. The difference as I experienced it is not significant; however, this may be due to the fact I learned Kuk Sool Won Hap Ki Do. I believe many other Hap Ki Do schools use similar curricula. After my experience with Kuk Sool, I teach the arts as they were first taught to me; however, I have adopted the lower stances which I feel are a great training tool for the legs. The difficulty of practicing lower stances is quite evident in the number of students who actually achieve this goal. I must point out that we do not fight out of low stances, and we merely use them to train our legs. I also find that the narrower stances aid in the execution of our circular techniques, and I have also adopted them. The study of Kuk Sool has definitely affected my teaching of the old Kuk Sool Won Hap Ki Do. Some martial artists will say that this is an insult to tradition; however, I accept the fact that martial arts are a living thing that has natural evolution. One of our major forefathers also must have felt this way; otherwise, many of us would practice Daito Ryu today. It is always best to have questions answered by those who are closest to the issue, and perhaps one of the higher Masters of Kuk Sool can better answer some of these issues. I am sure my post has not even begun to cover the question of 'what is the difference', but I hope it has given you some insight. More details are available in our web site at www.nkmaa.ca, and I will do my best to answer further questions. Please remember that my observations are purely personal and in no way represent the WKSA or its founder. Respectfully, Rudy, Kwan jang P.S. I have never heard GM Seo In Sun (Kido Hae) tell anyone he founded Hap Ki Do. If he had, I would most likely have heard it through the inevitable grapevine. GM Seo, in my experience is an honorable man and an extremely capable, hard working, martial artist who does not require to pad his bio. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 6:37:23 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: netiquette > << Come on folks. Lets try to keep those sigs down to 6 lines or less. More > isn't really proper netiquette. > > Thanks. > > Ray Terry >> > > hmm. interesting that it hasnt bothered you til now, ray. glad to oblige. It has come up several times in the past. I suspect it will come up again in the future. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: dbuehrer@denver.carl.org Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 07:19:34 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Signature Style >From: ChunjiDo@aol.com > ><< BTW, I find your repeated > posts tagged with links to your business to be a bit offensive as this is > not a commercial site, but a forum to share ideas upon. Why not stop > all the > advertising, and just write when you have something to share? As it is > now, > one must speculate if you are posting just to put your ads before the > readers eyes. > Sincerely, > SESilz > >> > >you may certainly speculate. however, i've been a regular poster to this and >other lists for, i believe, a year and a half. consistently. if it bugs you, >i'm sure there are filter options available either through the list or >through your server, or through your email progy. Your posts cannot be filtered out because this list is sent out in a digest format. If he has a filter set to filter your posts than it will filter the entire digest. As of yet there is no filter system that I know of that will remove specified text from an email (digest) post. Melinda, if you do continue to put URL links in your sig, may I make a suggestion :) Currently the links don't look very attractive. My mailer (Eudora) displays your signature as raw HTML code. >ChunjiDo -pe >rsonal homepage >http://hometown.aol.com/chunjido/homehtmlindex.html IMHO they would look better as simple text: ChunjiDo -personal homepage http://hometown.aol.com/chunjido/homehtmlindex.html Most email programs (Eudora, Outlook, Netscape, Pegasus) will recognize the above as a URL and display it as such. And email programs which can't interpret HTML (ELM, PINE) won't get confused. To Life, - -David Buehrer 6th Gup, Hapkido http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3 - -- "Warm nights, good food, kindred spirits....great life!" ------------------------------ From: jsegovia@mindspring.com Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 09:36:39 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Changing The Rules Mid-Game Rick wrote: > I have a problem that I am unhappy with, and maybe some clear ideas can come > from the list. A friend of mine went to a very well-known TKD school for a long time and worked all the way through to red belt. He felt he had learned everything required for black belt, had put in all the time, did everything his teachers asked, worked on what they said he needed to, had apparently met all their expectations. As a matter of fact, they told him they were so impressed they were planning in bringing him along as an instructor. But after a long period of waiting to be told he could test for black belt, his instructors finally got to it: they wanted him to sign up for some expensive post-black belt program. Then he could test for his black belt and start training for higher rank and as an instructor. They never came right out and said it, but he knew: until he plunked down the money, he wasn't going to get his black belt. It was a very hard decision for him because he had worked so hard at this school, he liked training there, had friends there, etc. But in the end, he left and went to another school. He'd lost his faith in his instructors and the school owner and training there was never going to be the same. Jesse ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #311 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.