From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #312 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thur, 4 May 2000 Vol 07 : Num 312 In this issue: the_dojang: Korean Tribal Arts the_dojang: Sparring Combinations the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #310 the_dojang: Re: KSW&SMK the_dojang: Chung, Kee Tae Hapkido book Re: the_dojang: Korean Tribal Arts the_dojang: Re: V7 #309: Unplugged the_dojang: Honoring Black Belts the_dojang: Dr. Un Yong Kim & KCIA the_dojang: More thoughts on the KCIA the_dojang: Kwan jangnim Rudy [none] ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 960 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JEREMYT@ATFI.COM (JeremyT) Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 09:21:22 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Korean Tribal Arts "That is the party line... But what are they? e.g. Korean Tribal Arts. What historical evidence do we have of any Korean tribal arts? What were they? What were they like? If there were any, they have been completely and totally lost to time." I would have to disagree with you on this RayT. There are etchings, ceramics, statues, artwork, etc. that depict fighting stances, people engaged in combat, and other various martial related material. There is hardly any books due to the Japanese occupation. However, I believe the arts could have been handed down from generation to generation. We can not give a defined answer because we really don't know who knows these arts and who don't. GM Seo may have been lucky enough to have a grandfather who preserved the tradition. While others may not be public about, I believe the tribal arts do exist. Korea is now opening up its doors to its other arts such as Sun Moo Do. GM Cyrus heads an art of Choson-do which was a disappearing art in its own right. My point is that there are still a lot of unanswered questions about Korean arts that we are still finding out little by little. Jeremy ------------------------------ From: "Ates, Michelle (ATESML)" Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 09:48:26 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Sparring Combinations Would anyone care to share their favorite sparring combination? Also, do you have a series of techniques, etc you use to set up your opponent? What defensive combination do you like you use if your opponent counters successfully from your favorite combination? Michelle ------------------------------ From: TkdBPerry@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 10:44:53 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #310 In a message dated 5/4/00 1:14:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: > I am probably > going to be approached by several to join my school, and ordinarily I would > not accept them, but the circumstances are muddled. I am torn between the > issues of loyalty to your instructor and fairness to the student. > > Any ideas? > > Rick Foley Rick: I find this simple, and don't want to be flamed. But, don't believe in shirking my responsibility of citizenship nor interfering with an individuals independent choice to remain at their school where they began. Simple in that a student in every martial art form should be loyal to their school, instructors and fellow students. But, not subservient or blind to the choices and freedom of human rights and legal recourse. An individual must place a priority such as their belief in God, citizenship and family before school loyalty. Does this mean we should ignore and passover fealty which is the foundation of martial arts? No, this is a simple but very serious situation. I commend you for your honesty and courage to speak out on this medium about this all to common dilemma. One time before I helped someone in a similar situation as it is prevalent in cult type groups. The simplest and most effective way to handle this problem is to allow them the room to solve this with pride. Invite them to an open unbiased forum such as this and let them enjoy freedom of speech. A simple solution to a serious matter. I hope they solve this at the original school. I also commend you for your patience and desire to maintain their roots. Bob ------------------------------ From: "Dana Vaillancourt" Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 07:55:15 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: KSW&SMK On Thu, 4 May 2000 C. Richards" wrote on "KSW" > MAC <arts, little bit of everything, and nothing like I've ever seen in a regular TKD, TSD, or HKD dojang. Appeared to be a very complete MA.>> > > C. Richards: >I'll have to differ sir. I have a Hapkido Sun Moo Kwan patch from my circa 1994 yellow belt days. It has the pentagon, tang bong in fist and double >dan kums *unique* to KSW. The Sun Moo Kwan Jang Kum Hyung is almost Identical to In Hyuck Suh/Hollanders Book. I "think" the Sun Moo Kwan also looks very similar to KSW for the reason that the NAHA [SMK] president, Master Dave Weatherly, may train under one of the [GM] Sa brothers, who have that background as well. As for SMK GM Jae Sun Ji, I do not know of anyone who has any first-hand information on him. Ask your instructor, who may have better info. on this than I. Dana ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: HKDTodd@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 11:52:41 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Chung, Kee Tae Hapkido book Master Chung wrote a whole set of books on Hapkido but only one was published. Todd ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 10:05:40 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: Korean Tribal Arts > "That is the party line... But what are they? e.g. Korean Tribal > Arts. What historical evidence do we have of any Korean tribal arts? > What were they? What were they like? If there were any, they have > been completely and totally lost to time." > > I would have to disagree with you on this RayT. There are etchings, > ceramics, statues, artwork, etc. that depict fighting stances, people > engaged in combat, and other various martial related material. There > is hardly any books due to the Japanese occupation. However, I > believe the arts could have been handed down from generation to > generation. Almost anything is possible, but is it probable? The cave drawings could just as easily be ritual dance steps as they could be fighting stances. In short, the Choson dynasty was so unsupportive of martial arts for so very very long. That is why things would have been lost, if they ever did exist. I also believe that the KSW history indicates that CHOI Yong-sool was a expert in Korean Tribal Arts? Did he learn them before leaving for Japan at the tender age of ~9? Did he learn them in Japan? I submit that this is simply another case of creative marketing within the Korean martial arts community. Similar to TaeKwonDo's claim of being 2000 years old or HwaRangDo's claim of being an 'ancient martial art'. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: samiller@Bix.Com Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 13:35:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: V7 #309: Unplugged I believe Master Silz is referring to the rather verbose tag line you employ that has the url's of your home page, a martial arts supply house, and a get paid to surf site. I also find it slightly annoying to see that kind of "stuff" on every post you make. It also somewhat impolite to include html code when sending mail to recipients who may not have html enabled e-mail clients. Melinda wrote: >and btw, i believe i announce my shameless plugs with a subject heading of >"shameless plug" or "shameless self promotion"....so you could stick that >in >your filter too :) === Tang Soo! Scott ------------------------------ From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 14:08:23 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Honoring Black Belts In a message dated 5/4/00 6:39:48 AM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << You have hit on one of my per peeves in the area of Martial Art management. When someone is selected to test at my school, a date is picked, a belt is ordered along with a new top, and a certificate is ordered as well. Upon passing the "test" (if I put them up as ready, it seems to me the test is a foregone conclusion), he or she receives all of the above on that day. If I feel that if I should withhold a belt or certificate for an extended period of time, it means that I should not have selected this person to test in the first place. If you pay a testing fee, the instructor should give you all that comes with passing the test. >> I agree. The beginners and the intermediates in our school receive everything the day of they test. Why wait? The only way they can fail is by standing there and not even trying. I've never seen that happen. By the time I ask them to test ... they are more than ready. The advanced belts have a physical test and then they turn in papers on some subject in karate that they are free to pick. Every once in a while I will ask for a small second one on why they feel they would make a certain rank. They actually look forward to this and have topics already picked out for their next tests! :-) Some of the kids have gone to other schools (styles) and interviewed the Sensei's and Master's to include in their papers. They draw pictures of what they write about or add graphics on the subject. When they turn in the paper ... I get one night to read it over and then the next day I give them their belt and certificate with speech about how I felt they did on the test (physically) and I recite parts of their written work that I especially liked ... talk shortly about when they first came here and all they have accomplished now ... and how proud I am of them. At first the advanced belts were not too keen about turning in papers ... but now they are looking forward to it because they are actually learning more about martial arts, now. I used to stand up and talk to them about other arts, bring other instructors in to do seminars (but not everyone went so they weren't getting exposed to it) ... and no one seemed to be interested in learning ... only doing the kicking and punching stuff. So by adding the papers for the advanced belts ... I have increased their own knowledge about the arts ... having them all exposed to it, not just some. In the meantime ... I have made notes on where they need to work more and this is what I do in their classes in the future. But I don't see the significance of holding onto a belt that long. Teach them about patience ? Haven't they done that by attending all the classes faithfully all those years ? If they quit afterwards ... that is their path. We can't keep them forever, no matter how much we want to. They have to be free to live their life just as we have to be free to live ours. And they will be taking a part of us with them, just as they will be leaving a part of themselves to us. They will be remembered always here. I wanted to ask a question. I am a rather new school ... only been open 6 years ... so I don't have that many black belts ... I was wondering how you honor your black belts in your school. I have seen some schools with a Wall of Honor where they hang a picture of the student and a black belt (I can see the dust now on that belt) or they hang a copy of the certificate with a pic of the Black Belt ... I am not sure how I want to do it here, yet. But was hoping for some ideas from owners of schools that have been doing this for a few years. The other schools that I attended didn't do anything like this. Their walls are blank. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. Illona ------------------------------ From: MichaelChoi@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 14:45:14 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Dr. Un Yong Kim & KCIA I met Dr. Un Yong Kim once and just shook his hand. I don't know him personally. I do know that he was educated in the US (in Texas) and holds a PhD. From what I heard, President Park Chung-Hee picked Kim because of his diplomatic skills; Park knew that Kim had the political skill to get Taekwondo included into the Olympics. Were the majority of WTF Taekwondo masters KCIA agents? I doubt it. The only one who could probably answer that question is the director of the KCIA at that time, but I'm sure that the KCIA actively recruited Koreans throughout the world that were sympathetic to Park. Remember Koreagate and most recently, Robert Kim? It's all part of the intelligence game, whether CIA, SIS, DGSE, SVR, Korea's NIS, etc. Sincerely, Michael Choi ------------------------------ From: MichaelChoi@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 14:45:15 EDT Subject: the_dojang: More thoughts on the KCIA The Korean democratic movement has always been strong outside of Korea. Many Koreans, especially in the US, protested Park's heavy-handed tactics used against then-dissidents Kim Yong-sam and Kim Dae-jung. In the protests in America, Korean Taekwondo masters and their "goons" (black belts) went and beat up on the protestors for protesting against Park. Although I don't know for sure, MANY think that Park asked the Taekwondo masters to do this via KCIA personnel in the US. The most shameful part is that Koreans would beat up on peace-leaving Koreans. Sincerely, Michael Choi ------------------------------ From: HwarangTSD@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 14:47:06 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Kwan jangnim Rudy Thank you sir. Thats is precisely the type of information I was looking for. Frank ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 12:07:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [none] ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #312 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.