From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #313 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thur, 4 May 2000 Vol 07 : Num 313 In this issue: the_dojang: Korean Tribal Arts the_dojang: More thoughts the_dojang: Re: Uniforms the_dojang: Re: Polish NGB the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #312 the_dojang: Ray's response to Korean Tribal Arts the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #312 Re: the_dojang: More thoughts [none] ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 960 members strong! Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a plain text e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last five years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JEREMYT@ATFI.COM (JeremyT) Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 14:39:24 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Korean Tribal Arts "Almost anything is possible, but is it probable? The cave drawings could just as easily be ritual dance steps as they could be fighting stances." True, however, I believe the majority depicted on the cave drawings are of men, and not women, and would lead one to believe that this is more combat related. There are other artworks that even depict ladies with the bow and arrow. "In short, the Choson dynasty was so unsupportive of martial arts for so very very long. That is why things would have been lost, if they ever did exist." True the Choson dynasty looked down upon fighting arts as something for thugs and peasants however that doesn't mean that they weren't practiced, they just weren't widely practiced. One argument from Kumdo masters is that they started the art, but due to the Choson dynasty the Japanese were the ones to develope it to what it is today. Who knows, some of those Choson aristocrats may have practiced in private. "I also believe that the KSW history indicates that CHOI Yong-sool was a expert in Korean Tribal Arts? Did he learn hem before leaving for Japan at the tender age of ~9? Did he learn them in Japan? I submit that this is simply another case of creative marketing within the Korean martial arts community. Similar to TaeKwonDo's claim of being 2000 years old or HwaRangDo's claim of being an 'ancient martial art'." I can not answer this as I have not heard that before, however I would agree that this is a false statement as Choi, Young-sool would have never had a chance to study such arts based on what his life was like. Perhaps Steven Seo may be able to help us out with this question on the Tribal Arts influence on KSW. I would also like to add that if we are talking about tribal arts, what type of organization would there be outside of basic killing techniques? I am curious to this. Jeremy ------------------------------ From: "J. R. West" Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 16:31:12 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: More thoughts Dr. He-Young Kimm, while president of Andrew Jackson College, compiled a history of Korean Martial Arts for a course called Asiatic Disciplines 102, which included a large chapter on Korean Tribal martial arts, and I found it fascinating. It is now required reading for all students advancing to 1st gup. The KSW-like patch that was used by the Sun Moo Kwan was taken from KSW by one of the Ma brothers, if I'm not mistaken, and was even sold through Mr. Kyung-Sun Shin's "East-West Markets Exchange" in Chicago. When In-Hyuk Suh first saw the patch, I thought he was going to explode. J. R. West www.hapkido.com ------------------------------ From: Piotr Bernat Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 23:57:32 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Uniforms In my school, most students wear white V-neck uniforms with white, black or Poom collar. There are also some who wear traditional cross-over top uniforms, or even some with ITF uniforms from their previous schools. We don`t use coloured uniforms (apart from some demos etc. - if somebody has a red dobok and does a one- to-three self defense routine, it`s OK with me. There is a very special exception. Once a friend of mine gave me a red, black-trimmed dobok which was already too small for his daughter (she is a beautiful young woman now...). I gave it to the smallest kid in my school, and when the kid grew a bit, he gave me the dobok back. And it went to another "baby of the class". So, it`s always very nice for us all to see the smallest student in the gym dressed red, as if saying "Warning! Here I am, watch out, I`m the smallest..." ;) As for patches, I ask students to wear our school patch. The other ones are up to them. I don`t care too much about it, as long as the rules and proper respect are observed. From what I saw, the kids usually love patches, but as they mature, their new doboks have fever and fever additions. Regards - -- Piotr Bernat dantaekwondo@lublin.home.pl http://www.taekwondo.prv.pl ------------------------------ From: Piotr Bernat Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 23:28:47 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Polish NGB SESilz wrote: > The WTF is the recognized IF for taekwondo by the IOC and GAISF (or > General Assembly of International Sport Federations). The "Polish NGB" for > taekwondo therefore would be the Polish Taekwondo Federation (see: HREF="http://www.worldsport.com/ws/governmenthouse/fed_nat/0,2187,0_70_730_1_7 > 9_94,00.html#body104">Worldsport > Government house > Directory on the > WTF's website) > Personally, unless things are really mixed up in Poland, I don't see > how Master Hong Hi Choi, or his juniors, could have any authority over > what the Polish NGB for taekwondo does. Things are really a bit mixed up here, but yes, Taekwondo NGB in Poland (the one you mean) has no relation to Gen. Choi or the ITF. However, the ITF organisation was formed first and it`s called the Polish Taekwon-do Association. Therefore, the (Olympic) taekwondo NGB was forced to use the name "Polish Sport Taekwondo Federation" and later, "Polish Taekwondo Federation - WTF", since the Polish law forbids to form organisations with the same names (in Polish, both names without the distinction "sport" or "WTF" are exactly the same). We have been trying to change the situation for years, but couldn`t make it so far. BTW, in Poland the ITF TKD is also recognised and supported by the government. Regards - -- Piotr Bernat dantaekwondo@lublin.home.pl http://www.taekwondo.prv.pl ------------------------------ From: TKDSCRIBE@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 19:05:43 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #312 In a message dated 5/4/00 12:11:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: > Robert Kim? Actually, I don't remember Robert Kim, though I do remember Dr. Un Yong Kim's son John who was recently snagged for his involvement in a financial scam related to the Salt Lake City Olympics. which did Robert do? SESilz ------------------------------ From: MichaelChoi@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 19:05:47 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Ray's response to Korean Tribal Arts I agree with Ray. In ROK's capitalist economy, all martial arts need to compete for students. So they have an incentive to present a marketable "face" to their art. Personally, I don't want to be stuck in the past. I want the most effective techniques that work today on the street. Sincerely, Mike ------------------------------ From: TKDSCRIBE@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 19:08:47 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V7 #312 In a message dated 5/4/00 12:11:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: > In the protests in > America, Korean Taekwondo masters and their "goons" (black belts) went and > beat up on the protestors for protesting against Park Dear Mr. Choi, When and where did these goon squads strike? SEsilz ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 16:43:11 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: More thoughts > Dr. He-Young Kimm, while president of Andrew Jackson College, compiled a > history of Korean Martial Arts for a course called Asiatic Disciplines 102, > which included a large chapter on Korean Tribal martial arts, and I found it > fascinating. Do you recall?.?.? Given Dr. Kimm's 8th Dan in KSW, was this mostly a restatement of the KSW's history? Are any actual historical references cited about these tribal arts and of what they were comprised? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 16:38:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [none] ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V7 #313 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of an email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2000: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.